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 Kanluwen wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:
Considering that anything can conceivably wound anything else this edition, mass amounts of guard flashlights provide more than a meatshield. Volume of fire wins out these days, and Guard has it in spades.

Which was partly why people were freaking out about Conscripts so early.

If they'd just changed them from Lasguns to Autoguns, it would have immediately killed some of the whining.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of the problem.

 Porphyrius wrote:
Considering that anything can conceivably wound anything else this edition, mass amounts of guard flashlights provide more than a meatshield. Volume of fire wins out these days, and Guard has it in spades.

If tournament games had no time limit, this might be more valid. Personally I don't fire lasguns at anything outside of 12" at a tournament unless it's desperate because the time cost is too great, even with pre sorted dice.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:
Considering that anything can conceivably wound anything else this edition, mass amounts of guard flashlights provide more than a meatshield. Volume of fire wins out these days, and Guard has it in spades.

Which was partly why people were freaking out about Conscripts so early.

If they'd just changed them from Lasguns to Autoguns, it would have immediately killed some of the whining.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of the problem.

Which problem?

There were people early on whining about FRFSRFing Conscripts "turning Warlord Titans into mush" and other such nonsensical anecdotes. It's the whole reason why GW for a few joke posts measured killpower in Conscripts.
Giving them Autoguns instead of Lasguns literally would have solved that issue.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:
Considering that anything can conceivably wound anything else this edition, mass amounts of guard flashlights provide more than a meatshield. Volume of fire wins out these days, and Guard has it in spades.

Which was partly why people were freaking out about Conscripts so early.

If they'd just changed them from Lasguns to Autoguns, it would have immediately killed some of the whining.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of the problem.

Which problem?

There were people early on whining about FRFSRFing Conscripts "turning Warlord Titans into mush" and other such nonsensical anecdotes. It's the whole reason why GW for a few joke posts measured killpower in Conscripts.
Giving them Autoguns instead of Lasguns literally would have solved that issue.

Are you ignoring the fact that they also were the best meat shields in the game, or just totally ignorant of that?

180pt of conscripts gave you enough to block just about anything from deep striking anywhere near things you wanted to keep alive, while also be a terrible target to shoot because of how inexpensive they were to field but incredibly costly (relative to their price) to remove. The fact that they could harm anything was just a bonus.

Just curious, how do you guys feel about the power cost of Guard Infantry. Right now they're at 3 PL which more or less corresponds with 60 pts (with rounding). 4 ppm Guard gets you 45 pts + special weapon (so around 50 pts). With 5 ppm a Guard squad would be 55 pts before special weapons. That keeps them right at 3 PL (60pts) with a special weapon. How is that working out for those of you doing power level?

Dandelion wrote:
Just curious, how do you guys feel about the power cost of Guard Infantry. Right now they're at 3 PL which more or less corresponds with 60 pts (with rounding). 4 ppm Guard gets you 45 pts + special weapon (so around 50 pts). With 5 ppm a Guard squad would be 55 pts before special weapons. That keeps them right at 3 PL (60pts) with a special weapon. How is that working out for those of you doing power level?

Note Guard squads can take heavy weapons as well. A squad of Guardsmen with a Lascannon is 65 points, right in your 3PL sweet spot of 60 points. A Guard squad with a Vox + Meltagun is 57 points, also right in your sweet spot. I could be misunderstanding, but isn't Powerlevel based on "unit plus an average number of upgrades"?

I also don't get what your 45 points and 55 points base squad note is from, are you assuming a Vox?

kurhanik wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Just curious, how do you guys feel about the power cost of Guard Infantry. Right now they're at 3 PL which more or less corresponds with 60 pts (with rounding). 4 ppm Guard gets you 45 pts + special weapon (so around 50 pts). With 5 ppm a Guard squad would be 55 pts before special weapons. That keeps them right at 3 PL (60pts) with a special weapon. How is that working out for those of you doing power level?

Note Guard squads can take heavy weapons as well. A squad of Guardsmen with a Lascannon is 65 points, right in your 3PL sweet spot of 60 points. A Guard squad with a Vox + Meltagun is 57 points, also right in your sweet spot. I could be misunderstanding, but isn't Powerlevel based on "unit plus an average number of upgrades"?

I also don't get what your 45 points and 55 points base squad note is from, are you assuming a Vox?

I am assuming a vox. PL is based on the cost of the models + the average cost of upgrades then rounded. Guard can take flamers, grenade launchers, mortars, heavy bolters etc... add up all those then divide by how many of them you have as options. I'll add them up later and see what it comes out to be.

In any case, my point was that in PL you are generally paying closer to 5 ppm Guardsmen, than 4 ppm. (a plasma team at 5ppm is 62 pts total). So I was wondering if that hurts your lists, since there are many players who think 5 ppm Guard is unfair or unnecessary.

Dandelion wrote:

kurhanik wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Just curious, how do you guys feel about the power cost of Guard Infantry. Right now they're at 3 PL which more or less corresponds with 60 pts (with rounding). 4 ppm Guard gets you 45 pts + special weapon (so around 50 pts). With 5 ppm a Guard squad would be 55 pts before special weapons. That keeps them right at 3 PL (60pts) with a special weapon. How is that working out for those of you doing power level?

Note Guard squads can take heavy weapons as well. A squad of Guardsmen with a Lascannon is 65 points, right in your 3PL sweet spot of 60 points. A Guard squad with a Vox + Meltagun is 57 points, also right in your sweet spot. I could be misunderstanding, but isn't Powerlevel based on "unit plus an average number of upgrades"?

I also don't get what your 45 points and 55 points base squad note is from, are you assuming a Vox?

I am assuming a vox. PL is based on the cost of the models + the average cost of upgrades then rounded. Guard can take flamers, grenade launchers, mortars, heavy bolters etc... add up all those then divide by how many of them you have as options. I'll add them up later and see what it comes out to be.

In any case, my point was that in PL you are generally paying closer to 5 ppm Guardsmen, than 4 ppm. (a plasma team at 5ppm is 62 pts total). So I was wondering if that hurts your lists, since there are many players who think 5 ppm Guard is unfair or unnecessary.

Playing PL in general hurts guard lists in other areas so it's not a good comparison. In addition to the expensive infantry squads, you can't take mortar HWS since you're paying 60 'points' for a 33 point unit. Company commanders are likewise 3 PL for a 30 point unit. Back when Commissars were worth a damn, they were 2 PL for a 31 point unit. Even things like tanks get stupid expensive because you have to go all out on sponson/hull weapons to get value for the PL spent. Veteran squads are a mindboggling 6 PL and die as fast as ten Guardsmen.

PL basically forces Guard to take a bunch of worthless upgrades to try to make back their 'points', but Guard don't want blinged out units in the first place. A tricked out LR still dies as easily as a barebones one with a battlecannon/HB.

Power Level would absolutely hurt my list, because I don't bring upgrades on things. And it's not just Guardsmen who don't get upgrades; I rarely put max sponsons on my superheavies, and my company commanders are lucky to get Power Swords.

The only truly "fancy" units in my Regiment are the command units (Katerina Malinenko and her bodyguards/retinue and Command Tank).

RogueApiary wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

kurhanik wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Just curious, how do you guys feel about the power cost of Guard Infantry. Right now they're at 3 PL which more or less corresponds with 60 pts (with rounding). 4 ppm Guard gets you 45 pts + special weapon (so around 50 pts). With 5 ppm a Guard squad would be 55 pts before special weapons. That keeps them right at 3 PL (60pts) with a special weapon. How is that working out for those of you doing power level?

Note Guard squads can take heavy weapons as well. A squad of Guardsmen with a Lascannon is 65 points, right in your 3PL sweet spot of 60 points. A Guard squad with a Vox + Meltagun is 57 points, also right in your sweet spot. I could be misunderstanding, but isn't Powerlevel based on "unit plus an average number of upgrades"?

I also don't get what your 45 points and 55 points base squad note is from, are you assuming a Vox?

I am assuming a vox. PL is based on the cost of the models + the average cost of upgrades then rounded. Guard can take flamers, grenade launchers, mortars, heavy bolters etc... add up all those then divide by how many of them you have as options. I'll add them up later and see what it comes out to be.

In any case, my point was that in PL you are generally paying closer to 5 ppm Guardsmen, than 4 ppm. (a plasma team at 5ppm is 62 pts total). So I was wondering if that hurts your lists, since there are many players who think 5 ppm Guard is unfair or unnecessary.

Playing PL in general hurts guard lists in other areas so it's not a good comparison. In addition to the expensive infantry squads, you can't take mortar HWS since you're paying 60 'points' for a 33 point unit. Company commanders are likewise 3 PL for a 30 point unit. Back when Commissars were worth a damn, they were 2 PL for a 31 point unit. Even things like tanks get stupid expensive because you have to go all out on sponson/hull weapons to get value for the PL spent. Veteran squads are a mindboggling 6 PL and die as fast as ten Guardsmen.

PL basically forces Guard to take a bunch of worthless upgrades to try to make back their 'points', but Guard don't want blinged out units in the first place. A tricked out LR still dies as easily as a barebones one with a battlecannon/HB.

Aren't Veterans 5 PL now? Anyway, my question is have you had trouble, not would you have trouble. As in, do you lose/struggle noticeably more often in Power but less often in Points. It's important because this whole thread has been a "what if" whereas PL already exists so we can use it now. If Guard handle well in PL, then even with those lost points Guard are fine and could get a price bump on infantry without hurting much. If they're garbage then we know that they can't take too many hits on point costs.

I personally find Power level to be well balanced overall despite what some people claim. Every army is forced to take "worthless" upgrades because they're also paying too much. In points I would never take Cybork on my Nobs. So it's a fair(ish) comparison.

Side note, why wouldn't you use sponsons? They look so good.

I do struggle in Power Level with Guard, yes, though that is mostly because the huge points variations in Baneblade chassis vehicles really dicks over power level.

A sponsonless Hellhammer is 476 (roughly 24 power) and a max-sponson Hellhammer is 676 (roughly 34 power). A Hellhammer is 30 power.

I have no sponsons on any of my Hellhammers for fluff reasons. Badda bing, badda boom, I'm spending 18 power (ish) that I could have otherwise saved (30 vs 24 times 3).

In the index days we tried out some power level games and at the end of one I estimated that I was sitting at about 1300 points or so with the (IIRC) 75 PL list I had made, and I think my opponent was slightly over 1500 points.

I got torn up pretty good in that game, but that was against index Eldar and was one of the first games I played in 8th after my opponent had already had a few games under his belt, so take that as you will.

All of my armies pay for PL they can't, or simply would not use. I have yet to see an army that really benefits from playing PL. This isn't something that is unique to Imperial Guard.

PL is effectively a different game in a lot of ways. You're bringing fundamentally different units, and they're being utilized at their fullest potential.

In that regard, Guardsmen are a decent choice for PL, since you can put every single upgrade on them. Other armies don't fair as well, for example, Grey Knights pay PL for thunder-hammers they wouldn't actually take, even if they're free.

Inquisition might actually win on Power Level. Imagine all those combi-plasmas and storm shields.

Guard Infantry do pretty well by PL standards, but the tanks are where you get hard, as each one is paying for that expensive hull heavy flamer that (at least, for myself) never gets used. I'd argue that there's the price of power swords and meltaguns figured into footslogging units, but I take the power swords already, so that feels unfair.

 daedalus wrote:
Inquisition might actually win on Power Level. Imagine all those combi-plasmas and storm shields.

Guard Infantry do pretty well by PL standards, but the tanks are where you get hard, as each one is paying for that expensive hull heavy flamer that (at least, for myself) never gets used. I'd argue that there's the price of power swords and meltaguns figured into footslogging units, but I take the power swords already, so that feels unfair.

I don't think Acolytes can get storm shields sadly. But Combi-Plasmas would be amazing, I agree. Inquisition at power level would be fun.

Dandelion wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

kurhanik wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Just curious, how do you guys feel about the power cost of Guard Infantry. Right now they're at 3 PL which more or less corresponds with 60 pts (with rounding). 4 ppm Guard gets you 45 pts + special weapon (so around 50 pts). With 5 ppm a Guard squad would be 55 pts before special weapons. That keeps them right at 3 PL (60pts) with a special weapon. How is that working out for those of you doing power level?

Note Guard squads can take heavy weapons as well. A squad of Guardsmen with a Lascannon is 65 points, right in your 3PL sweet spot of 60 points. A Guard squad with a Vox + Meltagun is 57 points, also right in your sweet spot. I could be misunderstanding, but isn't Powerlevel based on "unit plus an average number of upgrades"?

I also don't get what your 45 points and 55 points base squad note is from, are you assuming a Vox?

I am assuming a vox. PL is based on the cost of the models + the average cost of upgrades then rounded. Guard can take flamers, grenade launchers, mortars, heavy bolters etc... add up all those then divide by how many of them you have as options. I'll add them up later and see what it comes out to be.

In any case, my point was that in PL you are generally paying closer to 5 ppm Guardsmen, than 4 ppm. (a plasma team at 5ppm is 62 pts total). So I was wondering if that hurts your lists, since there are many players who think 5 ppm Guard is unfair or unnecessary.

Playing PL in general hurts guard lists in other areas so it's not a good comparison. In addition to the expensive infantry squads, you can't take mortar HWS since you're paying 60 'points' for a 33 point unit. Company commanders are likewise 3 PL for a 30 point unit. Back when Commissars were worth a damn, they were 2 PL for a 31 point unit. Even things like tanks get stupid expensive because you have to go all out on sponson/hull weapons to get value for the PL spent. Veteran squads are a mindboggling 6 PL and die as fast as ten Guardsmen.

PL basically forces Guard to take a bunch of worthless upgrades to try to make back their 'points', but Guard don't want blinged out units in the first place. A tricked out LR still dies as easily as a barebones one with a battlecannon/HB.

Aren't Veterans 5 PL now? Anyway, my question is have you had trouble, not would you have trouble. As in, do you lose/struggle noticeably more often in Power but less often in Points. It's important because this whole thread has been a "what if" whereas PL already exists so we can use it now. If Guard handle well in PL, then even with those lost points Guard are fine and could get a price bump on infantry without hurting much. If they're garbage then we know that they can't take too many hits on point costs.

I personally find Power level to be well balanced overall despite what some people claim. Every army is forced to take "worthless" upgrades because they're also paying too much. In points I would never take Cybork on my Nobs. So it's a fair(ish) comparison.

Side note, why wouldn't you use sponsons? They look so good.

Yes, I have had trouble in PL games. The difference between what I could bring in PL vs points was huge.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I don't think Acolytes can get storm shields sadly. But Combi-Plasmas would be amazing, I agree. Inquisition at power level would be fun.

Crap. You're right. :(

I miss 5th ed inquisition so much.

Eldar need nerfs. Not AM.

Dark reapers need a nerf. IG needs a few tweaks still.

 Byte wrote:
Eldar need nerfs. Not AM.

This topic is about changes to Guard. No one here has denied that Eldar needs tweaks aswell. Nor does tweaking Guard imply that Eldar will not be tweaked aswell.

Its crazy how much some people complain about guard. Certain types complained enough to nerf guard completely out of the competitive scene, and the only place you'll see them in any top 10 is as CP batteries for power armor. If space marine players could finally exhibit some self control, I think most of the problems would go away overnight.

Most normal Guard armies are actually not that bad. It's the abusive spam lists that need to be brought into line

Martel732 wrote:
Dark reapers need a nerf. IG needs a few tweaks still.

Nah.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ordana wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Eldar need nerfs. Not AM.

This topic is about changes to Guard. No one here has denied that Eldar needs tweaks aswell. Nor does tweaking Guard imply that Eldar will not be tweaked aswell.

Actually, yeah. It does. Because at this point Guard have seen more changes than the past three iterations of the Eldar book has.

Christ, Conscripts and Commissars have seen more changes than most of the Eldar books have.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Dark reapers need a nerf. IG needs a few tweaks still.

Nah.

Tweaks. Some things don't work right (Commissars need they rules adjusted up so they actually serve a purpose). Dark Reapers need a straight up Nerf.

And I agree, several Guard units have been repeatedly nerfed.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Most normal Guard armies are actually not that bad. It's the abusive spam lists that need to be brought into line

The issue with this mentality is that:
a) The "abusive spam lists"...aren't. It's soup lists that have brought items in.
b) Guard aren't exactly swimming in options in quite a few slots, even when one factors in ignoring the idea of "Is X more points efficient than Y?".

Like most codices, you end up with lists having lots of a specific item and then people decrying it as "spam". No gak there's people running Infantry or Scion Squads as Troops--Conscripts are garbage and that leaves effectively two Troop choices to choose from; one that benefits from Regimental Traits(Infantry Squads) and one that has a static RT(Scions).
No gak there are people running multiple cheap Officers--they are how you use the army's special rules.

Etc etc


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Dark reapers need a nerf. IG needs a few tweaks still.

Nah.

Tweaks. Some things don't work right (Commissars need they rules adjusted up so they actually serve a purpose). Dark Reapers need a straight up Nerf.

Let me put this as politely as possible:

Martel won't be happy until someone placing a Guard army on the table means it's an autowin for him. That's his mentality of what it means for an army needing to be "tweaked".

LoyalGuardsman69 wrote:Its crazy how much some people complain about guard. Certain types complained enough to nerf guard completely out of the competitive scene, and the only place you'll see them in any top 10 is as CP batteries for power armor. If space marine players could finally exhibit some self control, I think most of the problems would go away overnight.

Well, be fair. Up until a year ago if the enemy placed a Imperial Guard army of any kind on the table the game was an auto win for them. They are still in the mindset that has resulted from endless years of constantly roflstomping Guard armies.
Imagine if you had been able to wipe out a certain army with any list you built, no matter how hard the other player fought, and suddenly, overnight, the scales where levelled and that one army became capable of fighting you on an even footing. Of course they are going to scream, for the first time in years they are being forced to apply braincells when facing Imperial Guard armies and it is hurting them. It is far easier to just whine at GW until the nasty mans are nerfed back to bottom again.

Kanluwen wrote:

Martel won't be happy until someone placing a Guard army on the table means it's an autowin for him. That's his mentality of what it means for an army needing to be "tweaked".

I'm glad someone else sees it.

MoO, I know all you really want is to be treated fairly but given your attitude of late you're only doing your own cause damage. Your posts are toxic and completely unhelpful. Insulting every marine player because you want to hit back at somebody is stupid.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Most normal Guard armies are actually not that bad. It's the abusive spam lists that need to be brought into line

The issue with this mentality is that:
a) The "abusive spam lists"...aren't. It's soup lists that have brought items in.
b) Guard aren't exactly swimming in options in quite a few slots, even when one factors in ignoring the idea of "Is X more points efficient than Y?".

Like most codices, you end up with lists having lots of a specific item and then people decrying it as "spam". No gak there's people running Infantry or Scion Squads as Troops--Conscripts are garbage and that leaves effectively two Troop choices to choose from; one that benefits from Regimental Traits(Infantry Squads) and one that has a static RT(Scions).
No gak there are people running multiple cheap Officers--they are how you use the army's special rules.

Etc etc


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Dark reapers need a nerf. IG needs a few tweaks still.

Nah.

Tweaks. Some things don't work right (Commissars need they rules adjusted up so they actually serve a purpose). Dark Reapers need a straight up Nerf.

Let me put this as politely as possible:

Martel won't be happy until someone placing a Guard army on the table means it's an autowin for him. That's his mentality of what it means for an army needing to be "tweaked".

That's not even close to how Martel is. You're just denying how stupid good Guard were and still ARE.

I think the issue is that if an army isn't doing well, the nerf it until the can narrow down where the nerfs went wrong.
Ex: X army is good in 7E, nerf until we can slowly bring it up to a stable position. Repeat.

I'm glad that we can all agree that when Eldar have their Dark Reapers nerfed, it means the rest of the army is perfectly balanced; actually, they could probably use buffs!

Because re-balancing one or more units immediately means the rest of the army is no longer subject to balace, and no longer in need of adjustments.

C'mon Guard players - just because you have multiple units getting adjusted does NOT mean that the rest of the army is suddenly gak. Also, it IS possible that sometimes multiple units WERE overtuned. Sometimes, armies can have multiple units that need adjusting, up or down. Also, the adjustments in 40k are now an iterative process; you're going to see the same armies and units readjusted if they continue to be problems (too strong or too weak).

You're not the only army that's going to have units rebalanced (buffed/nerfed).