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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

"Never meant to be a stand alone codex"
Yeah guess we can forget about that Daemon Hunters codex and the 5th edition codex huh?

Daemon hunters is a really bad example, since it was mostly inquisition with two GK units and an HQ, and they were even more specialized in fighting Daemons back then.

HQ + the bodyguard, Grey Knights, Terminators, Purgators, Interceptors or whatever the fast attack one was called, Dreads, and Land Raiders. Surprisingly a lot of the codex is dedicated to the Grey Knights huh? And it was surprisingly half functional too for a low model count army at the time. Storm Troopers with Chimeras were super helpful though I'll give you that (one of my non-pure lists was them with Grey Knight Terminators after all), but not necessary to the point of a crutch.

Not sure what makes it a bad example outside the fact you say it is.

I had to recheck my book (ugh, so much dust!) Interceptors weren't in, but there was more then I had thought there was thats for sure.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I said inefficient, not ineffective. And the LVO guy cheated to get to the final round. BA are adequate, but really rely on the opponent jelloheading to get anywhere. You can beat most BA lists in the deployment phase. Make them charge crap,and then shoot them all to death.

You should asterisk your posts with "*mono-BA," because in a competitive environment everyone "Imperium" should be bringing Imperial Guard as at least half their lists.

Blood Angels actually add immense value to IG by being super specialized into deep strike assault.

I honestly think deep strike assault is a waste of time for IG. It's much easier to nuke everything with artillery.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

"Never meant to be a stand alone codex"
Yeah guess we can forget about that Daemon Hunters codex and the 5th edition codex huh?

Daemon hunters is a really bad example, since it was mostly inquisition with two GK units and an HQ, and they were even more specialized in fighting Daemons back then.

HQ + the bodyguard, Grey Knights, Terminators, Purgators, Interceptors or whatever the fast attack one was called, Dreads, and Land Raiders. Surprisingly a lot of the codex is dedicated to the Grey Knights huh? And it was surprisingly half functional too for a low model count army at the time. Storm Troopers with Chimeras were super helpful though I'll give you that (one of my non-pure lists was them with Grey Knight Terminators after all), but not necessary to the point of a crutch.

Not sure what makes it a bad example outside the fact you say it is.

I had to recheck my book (ugh, so much dust!) Interceptors weren't in, but there was more then I had thought there was thats for sure.

I don't remember the name, but basically taking them in the Fast Attack slot gave them Deep Strike or something. My book is in storage so I can't read it obviously.

 Commissar Benny wrote:
Source who has been correct about every IG nerf this edition prior to release says guardsmen will be 5ppm. Lets talk.

First off, IG players will be fine. We are a resourceful bunch. That is not what this is about.

This is about Games Workshop being completely oblivious & rather than resolving the root cause of balance issues they opt to apply bandages to a mortal wound. What am I going on about?

Imperial Soup.

Did any of these stop imperial soup players from taking cheap IG units as fodder?

Conscript nerf x2
Commissar nerf
Plasma gun nerf
Melta gun nerf
Astropath nerf
Primaris psycher nerf
Valhallan nerf
Manticore nerf
Ratling nerf
Wyvern nerf
Half a dozen other nerfs I cannot be bothered to list because I have already illustrated my point.

"Well clearly the issue is Imperial Guard is overpowered then!"

Funny you mention that. How many pure IG list made it into the top 10 at the LVO? ZERO.

Nerfing guardsmen to 5ppm will resolve nothing. Until matched play restricts Imperial soup players from using cheap fodder units from other armies, IG will continue to be nerfed into irrelevance until we are right back to where we were in 6th & 7th edition.

5ppm seems reasonable as it puts them in line with almost all the other GEQ. It puts them in line with Neophytes at 5ppm. It puts them in line with Hormagaunts at 5 ppm. While Fleshborer Termagaunts are 4 ppm you only take those as buffer for your 8ppm devilgaunts. Tau troops are 8ppm, Ork Boyz are 6ppm. Clearly GW wants you to run soup armies rather than full on Astra Militarium.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Your issue is a random number of units. For Marines it's a whole frickin category that forgot how to ignore cover. And I'm not hardpressed to find people arguing against it, as maybe a quarter of this forum had people arguing against it. I can go find that thread. Insectum7 was the worst offender in that thread though as he plays Marines and doesn't care.

You can find people arguing against it. That doesn't mean it's me arguing against it.

Also you CAN include Index units. I'm annoyed Rough Riders can forget they might be stronger than usual and that a Juggerlord can forget to make an extra attack on the charge. Calvary being excluded is stupid as we ALL know the ever favorited Space Wolves with their silly Thunderwolves will get a bonus of some kind.

Honestly, I genuinely forget that Rough Riders have <Regiment> and not Auxilla.

My discounting of Legion of the Damned was because that, like Militarum Tempestus or Auxilla units, they would come with a 'preset' bonus--not that they're Index Only units. I maybe should have specified a bit more.

And yes you did have a lot of this forum arguing Marine players had Roboute so there was no reason to care.

Again:
That doesn't mean it was me doing it. Not sure why you're choosing to try to single my arguments with regards to Guard stuff out as I'm pretty much in agreement that Marines got shafted. Something dramatic needs to be done to improve Chapter Tactics, whether it be that they're "improved" versions of a trait that others get on all units(i.e. Raven Guard/Alpha Legion get -2 to hit at 12 inches or further rather than -1 and their Stratagem disallows for counterplay stuff like Auspex Scans, Forewarned, etc) or a secondary trait be added for vehicles and things like that(Raven Guard/Alpha Legion vehicles get the ability to always count as being in cover, for example) to counteract the trait not being placed

Resipsa131 wrote:

5ppm seems reasonable as it puts them in line with almost all the other GEQ. It puts them in line with Neophytes at 5ppm. It puts them in line with Hormagaunts at 5 ppm. While Fleshborer Termagaunts are 4 ppm you only take those as buffer for your 8ppm devilgaunts. Tau troops are 8ppm, Ork Boyz are 6ppm. Clearly GW wants you to run soup armies rather than full on Astra Militarium.

Tau troops are 4+ saves, not 5+.
Neophytes, as I've said repeatedly at this juncture, are 1ppm more and have a higher LD value than Guard squads.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Resipsa131 wrote:

Nerfing guardsmen to 5ppm will resolve nothing. Until matched play restricts Imperial soup players from using cheap fodder units from other armies, IG will continue to be nerfed into irrelevance until we are right back to where we were in 6th & 7th edition.

5ppm seems reasonable as it puts them in line with almost all the other GEQ. It puts them in line with Neophytes at 5ppm. It puts them in line with Hormagaunts at 5 ppm. While Fleshborer Termagaunts are 4 ppm you only take those as buffer for your 8ppm devilgaunts. Tau troops are 8ppm, Ork Boyz are 6ppm. Clearly GW wants you to run soup armies rather than full on Astra Militarium.
Tau troops are 4+ saves, not 5+.
Neophytes, as I've said repeatedly at this juncture, are 1ppm more and have a higher LD value than Guard squads.

And people have repeatedly pointed out that IG vs any other troop in the shooting phase comes out ahead. Tau's 4+ save isn't enough to justify a 4ppm difference, and neither is 2S or 6" more range (or 0" depending on the regiment especially when Fire warriors also have WS5+, and -1LD as more downsides to also cancel out what advantages they get)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Resipsa131 wrote:

Nerfing guardsmen to 5ppm will resolve nothing. Until matched play restricts Imperial soup players from using cheap fodder units from other armies, IG will continue to be nerfed into irrelevance until we are right back to where we were in 6th & 7th edition.

5ppm seems reasonable as it puts them in line with almost all the other GEQ. It puts them in line with Neophytes at 5ppm. It puts them in line with Hormagaunts at 5 ppm. While Fleshborer Termagaunts are 4 ppm you only take those as buffer for your 8ppm devilgaunts. Tau troops are 8ppm, Ork Boyz are 6ppm. Clearly GW wants you to run soup armies rather than full on Astra Militarium.
Tau troops are 4+ saves, not 5+.
Neophytes, as I've said repeatedly at this juncture, are 1ppm more and have a higher LD value than Guard squads.

And people have repeatedly pointed out that IG vs any other troop in the shooting phase comes out ahead. Tau's 4+ save isn't enough to justify a 4ppm difference, and neither is 2S or 6" more range (or 0" depending on the regiment especially when Fire warriors also have WS5+, and -1LD as more downsides to also cancel out what advantages they get)

You have the same leadership values. Guard Infantry are LD6 with LD7 present on Sergeants(which are mandatory in the squad rather than optional like a Shas'ui).
You also have, built into the cost of your unit, "Bonding Knife Ritual" whereby any roll of 6 when taking a Morale test, the test is automatically passed.

 Kanluwen wrote:
which are mandatory in the squad rather than optional like a Shas'ui

This right here sums up the average Guard player on these forums.

Oh woe is me, this free upgrade is destroying my lists.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Your issue is a random number of units. For Marines it's a whole frickin category that forgot how to ignore cover. And I'm not hardpressed to find people arguing against it, as maybe a quarter of this forum had people arguing against it. I can go find that thread. Insectum7 was the worst offender in that thread though as he plays Marines and doesn't care.

It's true. I don't.

Would Chapter Tactics applying to vehicles stop marine whiners from whining? Nope.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
which are mandatory in the squad rather than optional like a Shas'ui

This right here sums up the average Guard player on these forums.

Oh woe is me, this free upgrade is destroying my lists.

Shas'ui, as far as I can spot in Index Xenos 2, don't cost you points.
They also don't cost you a weapon that benefits from a special ability--in fact, they come with the 'basic' weapon of the squad currently and have the option of taking two additional wargear items(Pulse Pistols and/or Markerlights)...unlike Guard Sergeants, who only come with a Laspistol(which is excluded from First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire--same as the Tempestor's Hotshot Laspistols) and have no option to have the same weapon as the remainder of the squad.

Additionally, as far as I can tell, the "Bonding Knife Ritual" ability doesn't require you to bring a Shas'ui.

Now you can continue to try to pretend that I was saying it was somehow "unfair" that I have to take a Sergeant(which wasn't the case at all, as you clearly knew when you chose to cut out the remainder of the post you quoted)--but if you'd like to address that point in the future do keep in mind that I have the Index and actually play T'au as well as Guard and AdMech.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Resipsa131 wrote:

Nerfing guardsmen to 5ppm will resolve nothing. Until matched play restricts Imperial soup players from using cheap fodder units from other armies, IG will continue to be nerfed into irrelevance until we are right back to where we were in 6th & 7th edition.

5ppm seems reasonable as it puts them in line with almost all the other GEQ. It puts them in line with Neophytes at 5ppm. It puts them in line with Hormagaunts at 5 ppm. While Fleshborer Termagaunts are 4 ppm you only take those as buffer for your 8ppm devilgaunts. Tau troops are 8ppm, Ork Boyz are 6ppm. Clearly GW wants you to run soup armies rather than full on Astra Militarium.
Tau troops are 4+ saves, not 5+.
Neophytes, as I've said repeatedly at this juncture, are 1ppm more and have a higher LD value than Guard squads.

And people have repeatedly pointed out that IG vs any other troop in the shooting phase comes out ahead. Tau's 4+ save isn't enough to justify a 4ppm difference, and neither is 2S or 6" more range (or 0" depending on the regiment especially when Fire warriors also have WS5+, and -1LD as more downsides to also cancel out what advantages they get)

You have the same leadership values. Guard Infantry are LD6 with LD7 present on Sergeants(which are mandatory in the squad rather than optional like a Shas'ui).
You also have, built into the cost of your unit, "Bonding Knife Ritual" whereby any roll of 6 when taking a Morale test, the test is automatically passed.

Alright, fair enough, I forgot Shas'ui is free (instead of a 10pt upgrade like it was since they came out iirc), but the S5 weapon and 4+ save (even with WS5) BKR don't make up for 4pt in difference between them and guardsmen. BKR tries to mitigate morale, when if it would ever be useful the squad has already been more or less wiped, especially since you probably won't get to use it more than once per unit, and the 4+ is still on a T3 W1 model (not exactly the height of durable infantry).

Don't get me wrong, fire warriors are good, but guardsmen still outshoot them.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Alright, fair enough, I forgot Shas'ui is free (instead of a 10pt upgrade like it was since they came out iirc), but the S5 weapon and 4+ save (even with WS5) BKR don't make up for 4pt in difference between them and guardsmen. BKR tries to mitigate morale, when if it would ever be useful the squad has already been more or less wiped, especially since you probably won't get to use it more than once per unit, and the 4+ is still on a T3 W1 model (not exactly the height of durable infantry).

Honestly, I feel like the part you are missing out on is that while BKR "tries to mitigate morale" it's basically freeing you of a potential Command Point having to be burned to do a reroll on a Morale test or just eating the casualties from Morale. If you roll that 6--whether or not it would have made you fail? It lets that unit stick around without possibly being wiped from morale.

Don't get me wrong, fire warriors are good, but guardsmen still outshoot them.

Unless they're not Vostroyans, in which case Fire Warriors have a 6" additional range on them...

I mean, sure, Guard are going to likely have more bodies nearby and will almost be guaranteed to have FRFSRF active--but if the Tau player isn't playing with Markerlights and/or a Fireblade in their arsenal? They're missing out. Hell, I'm a fan of running Darkstrider for the fact that he lets me make a unit be a point less for Toughness--Fire Warriors shooting at T2 Guardsmen is kinda fun.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Alright, fair enough, I forgot Shas'ui is free (instead of a 10pt upgrade like it was since they came out iirc), but the S5 weapon and 4+ save (even with WS5) BKR don't make up for 4pt in difference between them and guardsmen. BKR tries to mitigate morale, when if it would ever be useful the squad has already been more or less wiped, especially since you probably won't get to use it more than once per unit, and the 4+ is still on a T3 W1 model (not exactly the height of durable infantry).

Honestly, I feel like the part you are missing out on is that while BKR "tries to mitigate morale" it's basically freeing you of a potential Command Point having to be burned to do a reroll on a Morale test or just eating the casualties from Morale. If you roll that 6--whether or not it would have made you fail? It lets that unit stick around without possibly being wiped from morale.

A weak ability is still weak. 1/6 of the time it'll prevent a few casualties, which isn't worth 4ppm along side a 4+ save and a slightly better basic gun.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:


Don't get me wrong, fire warriors are good, but guardsmen still outshoot them.

Unless they're not Vostroyans, in which case Fire Warriors have a 6" additional range on them...

I mean, sure, Guard are going to likely have more bodies nearby and will almost be guaranteed to have FRFSRF active--but if the Tau player isn't playing with Markerlights and/or a Fireblade in their arsenal? They're missing out. Hell, I'm a fan of running Darkstrider for the fact that he lets me make a unit be a point less for Toughness--Fire Warriors shooting at T2 Guardsmen is kinda fun.

Don't get me wrong, fire warriors are good, but guardsmen still outshoot them.

I mean, sure, Guard are going to likely have more bodies nearby and will almost be guaranteed to have FRFSRF active--but if the Tau player isn't playing with Markerlights and/or a Fireblade in their arsenal? They're missing out. Hell, I'm a fan of running Darkstrider for the fact that he lets me make a unit be a point less for Toughness--Fire Warriors shooting at T2 Guardsmen is kinda fun.

2 Guardsman - 8 points
1 Firewarrior - 8 points

Guardsman v FW, 24"
(2 shots) x (.5 hits) x (.5 wound) x (.5 armor save) = 0.25 wounds
FW v Guardsman, 30"
(1 shot) x (.5 hits) x (.666 wound) x (.666 armor save) = 0.221 wounds

Guardsman v FW, 12"
(4 shots) x (.5 hits) x (.5 wound) x (.5 armor save) = 0.5 wounds
FW v Guardsman, 15"
(2 shot) x (.5 hits) x (.666 wound) x (.666 armor save) = 0.4435 wounds

Guardsman have FRSRF, and Tau have their own version too; but only when within 15" [Cadre Fireblade]. Tau can re-roll 1's if there's a markerlight on a target - Guardsman can re-roll 1's with Cadian, or an order (but lose FRSRF). Guardsman tie for range if they're Vostroyans.

The biggest difference is that Guardsman have 2wounds per 1wound of the Firewarriors.

Having more wounds on the table is a much bigger advantage than gw seems to think.

Martel732 wrote:
Having more wounds on the table is a much bigger advantage than gw seems to think.

Certainly when those wounds must each be removed via an individual attack. The math on wounds beyond the first are all sorts of weird.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So I'm a mono-guard player and I'm okay with this.

It shaves 30-60 points off my superheavy lists, because it's a shame because that's one or two fewer non-superheavy things I can buy, but if it makes the anti-guard players stop whining, it's fine.

Plus, 30-60 points isn't that much. It's not an intolerable nerf, and IMO it does bring casual IG in line with other casual lists without crippling our bottom line.

It's unfortunate, and I think it's unnecessary, but I won't be losing any sleep or anything over it.

Like full stop guardsmen can go to 100ppm and the anti guard players will still cry like fething babies (only half deservedly so). The problem is deeper than guardsmen being too cheap.

I run 0 Guardsmen in my pure guard list these days. still not even close.

gendoikari87 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So I'm a mono-guard player and I'm okay with this.

It shaves 30-60 points off my superheavy lists, because it's a shame because that's one or two fewer non-superheavy things I can buy, but if it makes the anti-guard players stop whining, it's fine.

Plus, 30-60 points isn't that much. It's not an intolerable nerf, and IMO it does bring casual IG in line with other casual lists without crippling our bottom line.

It's unfortunate, and I think it's unnecessary, but I won't be losing any sleep or anything over it.

Like full stop guardsmen can go to 100ppm and the anti guard players will still cry like fething babies (only half deservedly so). The problem is deeper than guardsmen being too cheap.

I run 0 Guardsmen in my pure guard list these days. still not even close.

What is the problem?

 Wolfblade wrote:

A weak ability is still weak. 1/6 of the time it'll prevent a few casualties, which isn't worth 4ppm along side a 4+ save and a slightly better basic gun.

Comparing the best basic rifle with the worst, 'slightly better'?

 BoomWolf wrote:

Orks taking 2nd and 3rd was a shocker. a single list getting 5th or so would be logical, but this result is above expectations. I REALLY want to know what they came up with.

They came up with the greentide. Also, there were no other orks in top 50 iirc. Just the 2 and 3 place.

 RandyMcStab wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A weak ability is still weak. 1/6 of the time it'll prevent a few casualties, which isn't worth 4ppm along side a 4+ save and a slightly better basic gun.

Comparing the best basic rifle with the worst, 'slightly better'?

How are the two mutually exclusive?

I'm not sure that means what you think it means.

 RandyMcStab wrote:
I'm not sure that means what you think it means.

It does actually.
He means that just because the lasgun is the "worst" basic rifle and the pulse rifle is the "best" basic rifle, the pulse rifle might very well still only be "slightly better" than the lasgun.

It has a better range, two points of better strength, and I believe an AP.

Guns have a range stat, a strength stat, an AP stat, and a damage stat.

It would be difficult for the Pulse rifle to be any better than the lasgun than it already is without being damage 2.

A Boltgun is 'Slightly Better' than a lasgun.
A Pulserifle is noticeably better than a Lasgun.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
It has a better range, two points of better strength, and I believe an AP.

Guns have a range stat, a strength stat, an AP stat, and a damage stat.

It would be difficult for the Pulse rifle to be any better than the lasgun than it already is without being damage 2.

A Boltgun is 'Slightly Better' than a lasgun.
A Pulserifle is noticeably better than a Lasgun.

Is it better with abilities taken into account though?

I'd honestly rather have a lasgun over 90% of the small arms in the game. Lasguns cover the one thing in my lists that the lascannons, plasma, and battlecannons can't, large hordes of low T models or high invuln saves.

You also need to take into account the opportunity cost associated with those small arms. According to the guard codex, bolt weapons are worth roughly a point in GW's eyes alone, that's to say nothing of something like a gauss rifle or pulse rifle. This adds up over an army, and is why IG can spam special and heavy weapons so efficiently. It doesn't matter that I have the weakest basic weapon in the game if I can have more special and heavy weapons than you do riflemen. That's always been the strength of the guard codex, you save points where it matters by not having to pay for fancy useless equipment like bolters, bonding knifes, power armor, etc unless you actually want it. So while your pulse carbines are "better", I have plasma and lascannons, and I've got a lot of wounds before I lose them, whereas every time you lose a guy your firepower noticeably drops.

This is also to say nothing of orders, and how your basic rifle interacts with your squad. Lasguns work for guard because we can take advantage of the points saved to bring better weapons. If IG units were stuck with lasguns (like conscripts) their only value is as a screen unless you are fighting another horde. Meanwhile something like fire warriors are stuck with basic weapons, so theirs need to pull more weight, which is why theirs are "better". I use air quotes because as far as I'm concerned lasguns are probably one of the most useful small arms in the game. It never hurts you to add a few more to a list and they're usually that list push you need to knock the wound off something. Combined with orders they're one of the most important weapons an infantry player has.

I was simply answering the point as to which gun is 'Slightly Better'.

I didn't say 'Cost Effective.'

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I was simply answering the point as to which gun is 'Slightly Better'.

I didn't say 'Cost Effective.'

Ah, my bad then.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
It has a better range, two points of better strength, and I believe an AP.

Guns have a range stat, a strength stat, an AP stat, and a damage stat.

It would be difficult for the Pulse rifle to be any better than the lasgun than it already is without being damage 2.

A Boltgun is 'Slightly Better' than a lasgun.
A Pulserifle is noticeably better than a Lasgun.

It's S5, AP0, R30. Over a Las gun it gains 0-6" depending on the regiment and 2S. That's not a lot of increase when compared to the Las gun for 4ppm. Just because it's th3 best basic rifle doesn't make it cost effective, which is why I keep pointing out the 4ppm difference between the two units, and that point per point guardsmen outshoot a strike team.

 lolman1c wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So I'm a mono-guard player and I'm okay with this.

It shaves 30-60 points off my superheavy lists, because it's a shame because that's one or two fewer non-superheavy things I can buy, but if it makes the anti-guard players stop whining, it's fine.

Plus, 30-60 points isn't that much. It's not an intolerable nerf, and IMO it does bring casual IG in line with other casual lists without crippling our bottom line.

It's unfortunate, and I think it's unnecessary, but I won't be losing any sleep or anything over it.

Like full stop guardsmen can go to 100ppm and the anti guard players will still cry like fething babies (only half deservedly so). The problem is deeper than guardsmen being too cheap.

I run 0 Guardsmen in my pure guard list these days. still not even close.

What is the problem?

Multiple ways of getting mass 2d6 shots with str 8+ AP and muti damage for under 150 points.

gendoikari87 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So I'm a mono-guard player and I'm okay with this.

It shaves 30-60 points off my superheavy lists, because it's a shame because that's one or two fewer non-superheavy things I can buy, but if it makes the anti-guard players stop whining, it's fine.

Plus, 30-60 points isn't that much. It's not an intolerable nerf, and IMO it does bring casual IG in line with other casual lists without crippling our bottom line.

It's unfortunate, and I think it's unnecessary, but I won't be losing any sleep or anything over it.

Like full stop guardsmen can go to 100ppm and the anti guard players will still cry like fething babies (only half deservedly so). The problem is deeper than guardsmen being too cheap.

I run 0 Guardsmen in my pure guard list these days. still not even close.

What is the problem?

Multiple ways of getting mass 2d6 shots with str 8+ AP and muti damage for under 150 points.

I can think of exactly one way to do that, and it's the Manticore. Every other gun under 150 either isn't 2d6 shots, or isn't strength 8+.