Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just wish GW would remove the keword 'imperium' so these greedy space marine players would leave us alone... at least until the next edition

LoyalGuardsman69 wrote:
I just wish GW would remove the keword 'imperium' so these greedy space marine players would leave us alone... at least until the next edition

Lol, yeah. I am all on board with soup, or at least I was until the whining started. Not just about guard, but about soup in general. At this point, I'd just axe soup, and I think Guard would shape up real quick (except in Martel's meta). They're very strong solo, but they're stronger when a BA captain and Celestine are backing them up (just as examples).

Some of us, like Custodes, Imperial Knights, Grey Knights, Inquisition and Deathwatch require soup to be remotely competitive. So no, I don't want them to axe soup because IG are having problems.

Audustum wrote:
Some of us, like Custodes, Imperial Knights, Grey Knights, Inquisition and Deathwatch require soup to be remotely competitive. So no, I don't want then to axe soup because I are having problems.

Well, in 3rd and 4th iirc, Inquisition (including Grey Knights) could soup even when no one else could, so presumably you could make exceptions. But yes, I'm still on board with soup conceptually.

But the whining spoils it for me.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Some of us, like Custodes, Imperial Knights, Grey Knights, Inquisition and Deathwatch require soup to be remotely competitive. So no, I don't want then to axe soup because I are having problems.

Well, in 3rd and 4th iirc, Inquisition (including Grey Knights) could soup even when no one else could, so presumably you could make exceptions. But yes, I'm still on board with soup conceptually.

But the whining spoils it for me.

The whining does get old, I agree.

Then you guys should stop doing it.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Then you guys should stop doing it.

Tell GW to give Grey Knights long range anti-tank at a competitive level, Custodes get psykers and Imperial Knights get both psykers and anti-horde tools and I'd be happy to.

LoyalGuardsman69 wrote:
I just wish GW would remove the keword 'imperium' so these greedy space marine players would leave us alone... at least until the next edition

If they do that then my Inquisitorial Warband becomes invalid since I'd be stuck taking a Vanguard detachment with no transports outside of a FW Land Raider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Then you guys should stop doing it.

Tell GW to give Grey Knights long range anti-tank at a competitive level, Custodes get psykers and Imperial Knights get both psykers and anti-horde tools and I'd be happy to.

Not every army should be able to build a gunline to play effectively. Instead of long range options perhaps some other balance issues should be addressed.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So I'm a mono-guard player and I'm okay with this.

It shaves 30-60 points off my superheavy lists, because it's a shame because that's one or two fewer non-superheavy things I can buy, but if it makes the anti-guard players stop whining, it's fine.

Plus, 30-60 points isn't that much. It's not an intolerable nerf, and IMO it does bring casual IG in line with other casual lists without crippling our bottom line.

It's unfortunate, and I think it's unnecessary, but I won't be losing any sleep or anything over it.

Like full stop guardsmen can go to 100ppm and the anti guard players will still cry like fething babies (only half deservedly so). The problem is deeper than guardsmen being too cheap.

I run 0 Guardsmen in my pure guard list these days. still not even close.

What is the problem?

Multiple ways of getting mass 2d6 shots with str 8+ AP and muti damage for under 150 points.

I can think of exactly one way to do that, and it's the Manticore. Every other gun under 150 either isn't 2d6 shots, or isn't strength 8+.

leman russ. it's ~150

gendoikari87 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So I'm a mono-guard player and I'm okay with this.

It shaves 30-60 points off my superheavy lists, because it's a shame because that's one or two fewer non-superheavy things I can buy, but if it makes the anti-guard players stop whining, it's fine.

Plus, 30-60 points isn't that much. It's not an intolerable nerf, and IMO it does bring casual IG in line with other casual lists without crippling our bottom line.

It's unfortunate, and I think it's unnecessary, but I won't be losing any sleep or anything over it.

Like full stop guardsmen can go to 100ppm and the anti guard players will still cry like fething babies (only half deservedly so). The problem is deeper than guardsmen being too cheap.

I run 0 Guardsmen in my pure guard list these days. still not even close.

What is the problem?

Multiple ways of getting mass 2d6 shots with str 8+ AP and muti damage for under 150 points.

I can think of exactly one way to do that, and it's the Manticore. Every other gun under 150 either isn't 2d6 shots, or isn't strength 8+.

leman russ. it's ~150

152 on the nose, not less than 150.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


152 on the nose, not less than 150.

I mean...that's 3 points from "under 150" so what distinction are we really trying to make here?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


152 on the nose, not less than 150.

I mean...that's 3 points from "under 150" so what distinction are we really trying to make here?

Hes trying to say he got you!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I mean...that's 3 points from "under 150" so what distinction are we really trying to make here?

You've obviously never seen those "my list is 2001 points, is that okay?" threads.

This thread is becoming a parody of itself.

 Marmatag wrote:
This thread is becoming a parody of itself.

I stepped away for a few days and we're beyond 40 pages. We need to keep this train rolling!

 Marmatag wrote:
This thread is becoming a parody of itself.

That happened at least a week ago.

If it's a question of having too many models on the tabletop, perhaps GW could use a mechanic with an area template to determine hits...

 Marmatag wrote:
This thread is becoming a parody of itself.

It really has. Should be closed and buried at the bottom of the sea.

Just a few more days and we can start bitching about the actual Nerfs where Guardsmen become 3ppm and gain the ability to always hit on 5's regardless of modifers.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Just a few more days and we can start bitching about the actual Nerfs where Guardsmen become 3ppm and gain the ability to always hit on 5's regardless of modifers.

But if they don't make guardsmen 2ppm how will anyone be able to beat dark reaper spam? If they where 5ppm you couldn't do a double brigade guard army? But its soup thats the problem honest officer not guard.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

152 on the nose, not less than 150.

<---- Point


You.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This thread is becoming a parody of itself.

That happened at least a week ago.

First post from my POV.

I mean, the Russ isn't under 150, which is what you claimed. I don't know what you want me to say. "Yea, sure, 152 is under 150. also 2+2 is 5."

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tau troops are 4+ saves, not 5+.
Neophytes, as I've said repeatedly at this juncture, are 1ppm more and have a higher LD value than Guard squads.

And guard gets to take orders, they can effectively double their shots or double move. In a 500 point league I run a guard battalion and 10 genestealers and a Patriarch in auxillary detachments because guard +orders can get down the field and finish off my opponent rather than builing a GSC Ballation and runnning Neophytes down the field.

Resipsa131 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tau troops are 4+ saves, not 5+.
Neophytes, as I've said repeatedly at this juncture, are 1ppm more and have a higher LD value than Guard squads.

And guard gets to take orders, they can effectively double their shots or double move. In a 500 point league I run a guard battalion and 10 genestealers and a Patriarch in auxillary detachments because guard +orders can get down the field and finish off my opponent rather than builing a GSC Ballation and runnning Neophytes down the field.

And GSC get Cult Ambush with 'Always On' Auras associated with their characters that can be stacked--and the ability to 'Look Out, Sir!' for those characters.

Different armies are different, even when you have what is almost literally the same unit(Neophytes/Guardsmen).

Seriously, the soup argument that never dies.

Soup isn't going anywhere, it's here forever, get used to it.

Soup sells models.

We live in a society wherein the most highly prized metric is profit.

Soup creates more profit.

Consequently soup is never going away, learn to play with it, alongside it, or away from it, pick one.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tau troops are 4+ saves, not 5+.
Neophytes, as I've said repeatedly at this juncture, are 1ppm more and have a higher LD value than Guard squads.

And guard gets to take orders, they can effectively double their shots or double move. In a 500 point league I run a guard battalion and 10 genestealers and a Patriarch in auxillary detachments because guard +orders can get down the field and finish off my opponent rather than builing a GSC Ballation and runnning Neophytes down the field.

And GSC get Cult Ambush with 'Always On' Auras associated with their characters that can be stacked--and the ability to 'Look Out, Sir!' for those characters.

Different armies are different, even when you have what is almost literally the same unit(Neophytes/Guardsmen).

A random mechanic

And lets see.. 6" autopass morale, 6" units can deny psyker powers as if psykers, +1 to hit in fight within 6", on a 6 ignore a non mortal wound within 6". Most of those don't even compare to guard orders, and GSC weapons are inferior to guard special weapons.

Not to mention each of those requires a different character to use, rather then one Officer barking out many, many orders.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tau troops are 4+ saves, not 5+.
Neophytes, as I've said repeatedly at this juncture, are 1ppm more and have a higher LD value than Guard squads.

And guard gets to take orders, they can effectively double their shots or double move. In a 500 point league I run a guard battalion and 10 genestealers and a Patriarch in auxillary detachments because guard +orders can get down the field and finish off my opponent rather than builing a GSC Ballation and runnning Neophytes down the field.

And GSC get Cult Ambush with 'Always On' Auras associated with their characters that can be stacked--and the ability to 'Look Out, Sir!' for those characters.

Different armies are different, even when you have what is almost literally the same unit(Neophytes/Guardsmen).

A random mechanic

And lets see.. 6" autopass morale, 6" units can deny psyker powers as if psykers, +1 to hit in fight within 6", on a 6 ignore a non mortal wound within 6". Most of those don't even compare to guard orders

Reroll hit rolls of 1s, change Lasguns and HSLGs into Rapid Fire 2, reroll Wound rolls of 1, shoot if Advanced, can shoot if Fell Back, can Advance with no charge instead of shooting, ordered unit fights as if it were the Fight phase--requires a unit within 1" of enemy unit.

and GSC weapons are inferior to guard special weapons.

Most GSC weapons are the same as Guard special weapons.
GSC also has access to Guard special/heavy weapons.

Not to mention each of those requires a different character to use, rather then one Officer barking out many, many orders.

2 Orders for an HQ, 1 Order for an Elite. 3 with a Warlord trait on the HQ or Creed.
Said Orders also can only be issued to a single unit(barring Cadians who, on a 4+ can apply the same Order to an additional nearby unit). A single unit can only receive one Order per turn(barring a Relic which, on a 4+, allows you to put an additional Order onto a unit).

"Many, many Orders" is a bit of an exaggeration wouldn't you agree?

 Kanluwen wrote:

"Many, many Orders" is a bit of an exaggeration wouldn't you agree?

Not when you can completely offset the cost of commanders with 4ppm versus 5ppm. Which is why the nerf seems reasonable

Man, I love comparing index armies with codex armies.

Sisters of Battle don't have <Order> traits so no one should.