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Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Duskweaver wrote:

factions whose background demands a single paint job. Grey Knights and Space Wolves being the worst offenders.

I agree with this 100%. In my headcanon, the official blue-grey scheme for the SW is just how Ragnar Blackmane's great company happens to look. Other great companies might wear entirely different colour schemes (and Logan Grimnar's wear the original VI Legion colours with the darker grey and red detailing).


Given how much variation there is in what "unpainted ceramite" looks like (the silver on the Grey Knights is one version, but the off-white of pre-Heresy Death Guard is also supposed to be unpainted) I always assumed that there was some variation possible within the Grey Knights (the main armour on mine is white).

And given the Custodes shield-hosts with different schemes in the current lore I'd expect the Grey Knights to get a similar treatment next time GW pays any attention to them.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






BrianDavion wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
If they bring back all the primarchs then the horus heresy not only loses it's impact on the setting but also its distinct appeal as a setting for gaming itself. I already disagree and dislike about everything Cawl has done to the setting. If they bring back Ferrus or Sanguinius I will seriously stop taking interest in 40k as a setting at all. I don't think there needs to be story progression or new things anymore. This is a backdrop for games and models...not a novel or evolving tv series.

Also for the record I haven't ever bought a primarch model, from FW or GW for that matter. if 40k become like AoS where it's a struggle of god like beings and super heroes then it diminishes the significance of the captains and characters the players create, whether it's an autarch or space marine captain. It leaves less room for characters to stand out because no one can compare to how OP and crap the primarchs are.



except that 40k as a setting had, after 20 or so years of non-development begun to get stale, moving things up a bit, allows them to shake stuff up
.


Stale? This gak again?

You do not have to play in the the "current". You had a sandbox of 10,000 years of 40k history to play in. 10,000 years is longer than recorded human history so far. Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History.

To claim that that amount of time is stale is just so utterly fallacious it's insulting.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.


Oh, like the Old crons had different objectives and parameters based on their tomb world's programming or C'tan influence?
Some necrons murdered everything, some necrons infiltrated (see : Xenology and the short story in the 3rd codex about the Deceiver posing as a governor), some necrons performed "experiments" on people (basically cattle mutilation. Except with people. I think that was also referenced in the 3rd ed codex). In the 5th ed rule book (iirc), before necrons were rewritten (keep in mind the codex came out a few years after the BrB was released), there was even a little bit of lore about a necron tomb world that launched raids at such precise times due to a programming error that the world they were targeting began to use them as training practice.
Just because the faction doesn't have a mustache twirling maniac with a stupid hat doesn't mean they lack specific traits and behaviors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


Only if you're not imaginative. If you can write a good, compelling story about the effects of a locust swarm on farmers and their attempts to deal with it, you can do one with tyranids. You even have a "human" component in the form of genestealer cults, that one could use if one doesn't know how to handle force of nature level threats like nids.
Necrons also had a "human" component in the form of C'tan, Pariahs, implied cultists and that one lord in Xenology. Its just they were subtle about it instead of hitting you over the head with bling and robo Don Quixote.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/02/17 23:21:39


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


I think the best nrraitve I read regarding the 'nids was in Devestation of Baal. great read

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I'd go with Imperial Knights being the worst lore addition. Someone decided it'd be a good idea to add pseudo-Mechwarriors to the game because Titans were too large and expensive, but had to shoehorn them in as existing for...reasons.

Imperial Knights have been around for ages. Maybe actually look up the history of them before making posts like this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
It's so hard to decide between Centurions, Dreadknights, Wards "Ultramarines are the best" lore, Cawl, Girlyman coming back, Goto's stuff and most of Khaines deaths.


I'm going to go with the return of the Wulfen rubbish. Made it seem like most of the Space Wolves are Wulfen already instead of it being a rare thing.

Would you rather the Marine line stagnate and get nothing new? I get the Dreadknight is pretty awful without some major green stuff work, but Centurions are requiring super little effort to make look decent.

I'd rather GW put effort into new things rather than just going "oh hey they had this all along. Well most of them. These guys don't. Especially when they neglect other model lines. Space Marines didn't really need redone plastic assault marines while a whole load of other lines are stuck with Finecrap.

I can't imagine any Centurion that looks decent. They're pretty bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimtuff wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
If they bring back all the primarchs then the horus heresy not only loses it's impact on the setting but also its distinct appeal as a setting for gaming itself. I already disagree and dislike about everything Cawl has done to the setting. If they bring back Ferrus or Sanguinius I will seriously stop taking interest in 40k as a setting at all. I don't think there needs to be story progression or new things anymore. This is a backdrop for games and models...not a novel or evolving tv series.

Also for the record I haven't ever bought a primarch model, from FW or GW for that matter. if 40k become like AoS where it's a struggle of god like beings and super heroes then it diminishes the significance of the captains and characters the players create, whether it's an autarch or space marine captain. It leaves less room for characters to stand out because no one can compare to how OP and crap the primarchs are.



except that 40k as a setting had, after 20 or so years of non-development begun to get stale, moving things up a bit, allows them to shake stuff up
.


Stale? This gak again?

You do not have to play in the the "current". You had a sandbox of 10,000 years of 40k history to play in. 10,000 years is longer than recorded human history so far. Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History.

To claim that that amount of time is stale is just so utterly fallacious it's insulting.

I've always thought it was quite a missed opportunity by GW to just skip over 5000 years of history. That was a goldmine for campaigns and such.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 06:27:00


tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






Warzone Fenris - Dark Angels cleanse Fenris.
Surely that means Fenris is gone right?

Wrath of Magnus - Oh no, the Dark Angels just bombed it a little bit and destroyed a few other planets in the Fenris system, the Grey Knights did more damage to the Fenrisian population than the Dark Angels did with their "cleansing".

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Grimtuff wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
If they bring back all the primarchs then the horus heresy not only loses it's impact on the setting but also its distinct appeal as a setting for gaming itself. I already disagree and dislike about everything Cawl has done to the setting. If they bring back Ferrus or Sanguinius I will seriously stop taking interest in 40k as a setting at all. I don't think there needs to be story progression or new things anymore. This is a backdrop for games and models...not a novel or evolving tv series.

Also for the record I haven't ever bought a primarch model, from FW or GW for that matter. if 40k become like AoS where it's a struggle of god like beings and super heroes then it diminishes the significance of the captains and characters the players create, whether it's an autarch or space marine captain. It leaves less room for characters to stand out because no one can compare to how OP and crap the primarchs are.



except that 40k as a setting had, after 20 or so years of non-development begun to get stale, moving things up a bit, allows them to shake stuff up
.


Stale? This gak again?

You do not have to play in the the "current". You had a sandbox of 10,000 years of 40k history to play in. 10,000 years is longer than recorded human history so far. Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History.

To claim that that amount of time is stale is just so utterly fallacious it's insulting.


sure and how long Have the Tau been about? The Tyranids? The Necrons have only started waking up. etc going back in time has some advantages sure but it also means various races are more restricted

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






Cthulusspy wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


Only if you're not imaginative. If you can write a good, compelling story about the effects of a locust swarm on farmers and their attempts to deal with it, you can do one with tyranids. You even have a "human" component in the form of genestealer cults, that one could use if one doesn't know how to handle force of nature level threats like nids.
Necrons also had a "human" component in the form of C'tan, Pariahs, implied cultists and that one lord in Xenology. Its just they were subtle about it instead of hitting you over the head with bling and robo Don Quixote.

I think you missed my point that being from a narrative perspective Nids will always be that locust swarm.

You can't go into details of the hopes and dreams of a Nid.
Their love life is probably best unexplored.
The thoughts of a general servant of the Hivemind are effectively "serve Hivemind, serve Hivemind....".

Nids will always be that faceless locust swarm. The interesting narrative will come from the foes they face.

GSC are decidedly not Nids, both in terms of character and theme and they have much more in the way of narrative potential.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 09:25:18


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Cthulusspy wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


Only if you're not imaginative. If you can write a good, compelling story about the effects of a locust swarm on farmers and their attempts to deal with it, you can do one with tyranids. You even have a "human" component in the form of genestealer cults, that one could use if one doesn't know how to handle force of nature level threats like nids.
Necrons also had a "human" component in the form of C'tan, Pariahs, implied cultists and that one lord in Xenology. Its just they were subtle about it instead of hitting you over the head with bling and robo Don Quixote.

I think you missed my point that being from a narrative perspective Nids will always be that locust swarm.

You can't go into details of the hopes and dreams of a Nid.
Their love life is probably best unexplored.
The thoughts of a general servant of the Hivemind are effectively "serve Hivemind, serve Hivemind....".

Nids will always be that faceless locust swarm. The interesting narrative will come from the foes they face.

GSC are decidedly not Nids, both in terms of character and theme and they have much more in the way of narrative potential.


Fair enough. That's how they should always be.
Technically GSC are nids though...well, on the way to becoming one, anyway
That genestealer trick of messing with people's DNA is pretty scary. That's some Thing level stuff.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

The Riptide. It fundamentally changed the Tau way of war from combined assets to "Big robots!".

The old fluff had heavy tanks and titans being taken by combined efforts of Hammerheads and aircraft. Then it was retconned that instead they developed the Riptide to fight them, even though it was worse at the job.

The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

I don't think a single unit has so drastically altered the fluff of an army in such a way since. It would be like Guilliman was only introduced in 8th edition and inserted into the victory over the tyranids as justification (can't remember which hive fleet it was).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 09:39:56


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Fair enough. That's how they should always be.
Technically GSC are nids though...well, on the way to becoming one, anyway
That genestealer trick of messing with people's DNA is pretty scary. That's some Thing level stuff.


Yea agreed on both counts. Genestealers ability to manipulate the dna of their victims and force them to love them or worship them or whatever is messed up and very compelling.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Riptide. It fundamentally changed the Tau way of war from combined assets to "Big robots!".

The old fluff had heavy tanks and titans being taken by combined efforts of Hammerheads and aircraft. Then it was retconned that instead they developed the Riptide to fight them, even though it was worse at the job.

The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

I don't think a single unit has so drastically altered the fluff of an army in such a way since. It would be like Guilliman was only introduced in 8th edition and inserted into the victory over the tyranids as justification (can't remember which hive fleet it was).

I think you mean the first one Behemoth.

I like pre Riptide Tau a lot.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Riptide. It fundamentally changed the Tau way of war from combined assets to "Big robots!".

The old fluff had heavy tanks and titans being taken by combined efforts of Hammerheads and aircraft. Then it was retconned that instead they developed the Riptide to fight them, even though it was worse at the job.

The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

I don't think a single unit has so drastically altered the fluff of an army in such a way since. It would be like Guilliman was only introduced in 8th edition and inserted into the victory over the tyranids as justification (can't remember which hive fleet it was).


In fairness mind you Tau are one of the more flexable and response races so I could see their doctrines actually changing. consider how much Naval doctrine changed from 1900 to 1950, just for example. we went from the old pre-dreadnoughts of 1900, to the dreadnought era, to the end of the dreadnought era and the rise of the aircraft carrier as the insturment of naval supremacy.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Riptide. It fundamentally changed the Tau way of war from combined assets to "Big robots!".

The old fluff had heavy tanks and titans being taken by combined efforts of Hammerheads and aircraft. Then it was retconned that instead they developed the Riptide to fight them, even though it was worse at the job.

The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

I don't think a single unit has so drastically altered the fluff of an army in such a way since. It would be like Guilliman was only introduced in 8th edition and inserted into the victory over the tyranids as justification (can't remember which hive fleet it was).


Welcome to Kirby era GW, where nothing makes sense and only profit matters

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 A Town Called Malus wrote:


The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

Honestly I don't recall it ever actually being stated that the Tau regarded Titans as wasteful. I'd be interested in quotes for it.

The rest I agree with you on though. It was an interesting difference the Tau had with other factions but instead no, they need big stompy robots too. Albeit theirs can jetpack and do other funky stuff, so continuing to take the superior technology schtick from the Eldar.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




pm713 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I'd go with Imperial Knights being the worst lore addition. Someone decided it'd be a good idea to add pseudo-Mechwarriors to the game because Titans were too large and expensive, but had to shoehorn them in as existing for...reasons.

Imperial Knights have been around for ages. Maybe actually look up the history of them before making posts like this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
It's so hard to decide between Centurions, Dreadknights, Wards "Ultramarines are the best" lore, Cawl, Girlyman coming back, Goto's stuff and most of Khaines deaths.


I'm going to go with the return of the Wulfen rubbish. Made it seem like most of the Space Wolves are Wulfen already instead of it being a rare thing.

Would you rather the Marine line stagnate and get nothing new? I get the Dreadknight is pretty awful without some major green stuff work, but Centurions are requiring super little effort to make look decent.

I'd rather GW put effort into new things rather than just going "oh hey they had this all along. Well most of them. These guys don't. Especially when they neglect other model lines. Space Marines didn't really need redone plastic assault marines while a whole load of other lines are stuck with Finecrap.

I can't imagine any Centurion that looks decent. They're pretty bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimtuff wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
If they bring back all the primarchs then the horus heresy not only loses it's impact on the setting but also its distinct appeal as a setting for gaming itself. I already disagree and dislike about everything Cawl has done to the setting. If they bring back Ferrus or Sanguinius I will seriously stop taking interest in 40k as a setting at all. I don't think there needs to be story progression or new things anymore. This is a backdrop for games and models...not a novel or evolving tv series.

Also for the record I haven't ever bought a primarch model, from FW or GW for that matter. if 40k become like AoS where it's a struggle of god like beings and super heroes then it diminishes the significance of the captains and characters the players create, whether it's an autarch or space marine captain. It leaves less room for characters to stand out because no one can compare to how OP and crap the primarchs are.



except that 40k as a setting had, after 20 or so years of non-development begun to get stale, moving things up a bit, allows them to shake stuff up
.


Stale? This gak again?

You do not have to play in the the "current". You had a sandbox of 10,000 years of 40k history to play in. 10,000 years is longer than recorded human history so far. Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History.

To claim that that amount of time is stale is just so utterly fallacious it's insulting.

I've always thought it was quite a missed opportunity by GW to just skip over 5000 years of history. That was a goldmine for campaigns and such.

That's a complaint about Marine focus. So I'm gonna ignore your complaint as actually legit now for the thread's topic.

Also just go through the gallery here on this website. They don't take a lot of effort. If you get rid of the shin guards and crap, for example, they actually look like they can walk.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Maryland, USA

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea agreed on both counts. Genestealers ability to manipulate the dna of their victims and force them to love them or worship them or whatever is messed up and very compelling.


I never really dabbled in Nid stuff before, but I've long wondered what the point of a GSC is anyways. Like, a fleet can't really be stopped, so what's the point of creating an internal cult of gene-manipulated supplicants to destroy from the inside when you can just...show up and win?

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Infantryman wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea agreed on both counts. Genestealers ability to manipulate the dna of their victims and force them to love them or worship them or whatever is messed up and very compelling.


I never really dabbled in Nid stuff before, but I've long wondered what the point of a GSC is anyways. Like, a fleet can't really be stopped, so what's the point of creating an internal cult of gene-manipulated supplicants to destroy from the inside when you can just...show up and win?


A fleet can be stopped, and its a lot easier trying to eat a world when its not fighting back.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea agreed on both counts. Genestealers ability to manipulate the dna of their victims and force them to love them or worship them or whatever is messed up and very compelling.


I never really dabbled in Nid stuff before, but I've long wondered what the point of a GSC is anyways. Like, a fleet can't really be stopped, so what's the point of creating an internal cult of gene-manipulated supplicants to destroy from the inside when you can just...show up and win?


A fleet can be stopped, and its a lot easier trying to eat a world when its not fighting back.


Also it's a means of determining target priority. In a galaxy of 100 billion stars it's nice to know ahead of time which ones are most worthwhile visiting. If a nice strong genestealer beacon goes up the hive mind can be sure of a useful system, and now one which is weakened from within.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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BrianDavion wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


I think the best nrraitve I read regarding the 'nids was in Devestation of Baal. great read


Devastation of Baal is a really great example of of how characterise Tyranids. Guy Haley goes into a lot of detail exploring how they work. The Lictor character story running through it has loads to offer, and we get a look at some other species in depth too.
   
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Patriarch Phyrx wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


I think the best nrraitve I read regarding the 'nids was in Devestation of Baal. great read


Devastation of Baal is a really great example of of how characterise Tyranids. Guy Haley goes into a lot of detail exploring how they work. The Lictor character story running through it has loads to offer, and we get a look at some other species in depth too.


After reading that and Dark Imperium I've come to appreciate Haley as a writer, thinking I might go and find what other 40k stuff he's written to see if it's any good

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 Flinty wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea agreed on both counts. Genestealers ability to manipulate the dna of their victims and force them to love them or worship them or whatever is messed up and very compelling.


I never really dabbled in Nid stuff before, but I've long wondered what the point of a GSC is anyways. Like, a fleet can't really be stopped, so what's the point of creating an internal cult of gene-manipulated supplicants to destroy from the inside when you can just...show up and win?


A fleet can be stopped, and its a lot easier trying to eat a world when its not fighting back.


Also it's a means of determining target priority. In a galaxy of 100 billion stars it's nice to know ahead of time which ones are most worthwhile visiting. If a nice strong genestealer beacon goes up the hive mind can be sure of a useful system, and now one which is weakened from within.


Yeah, the entire point of a Genestealer cult is to be a homing beacon, and the more successful it gets the larger that beacon will be, showing it's a big juicy meal among other planets that are too barren to be worth it.

They are really cunning, actually. It's the organic version of a human probe being sent out to determine whether a planet is fit for colonization.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/19 00:30:08




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
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Today I learned.

Sort of like Deep Ones in a sense, I guess. Been a while, though.

Something that would make a good RPG session plot...

Can GSCs be their own army, or are they an add-on to Nids like Cultists are to CSM?

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Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

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Wall o' text incoming! Danger! Danger!

I tend to think of most fluff from 5th ed 40K onward as poor. To be fair though, I haven't read much of it for that reason and only know of it secondhand. But it seems as if a lot of the fluff has never really recovered from the damage done back then.

Somebody upthread mentioned 'Saturday morning cartoonification', and I think that's a fair description of what happened in 5th.

It wasn't just Newcrons and Grey Knights. Tyranid fluff also went wonky in 5th ed from what I hear. Suddenly they didn't use the warp, had reincarnating Warriors and more personality, silly stuff like a Lictor pursuing a pointless 'campaign of terror' against an official instead of just killing him, a rejigged timeline and all the rest of it.

Chaos Daemons were also given the cartoon treatment. Before 5th ed, it was practically unheard of to read fluff from a daemon's perspective. You saw them through the eyes of mortals who encountered them. (Tuomas Pirinen, who worked on WFB stuff back in the day, is on record as saying the way daemons think is completely alien and incomprehensible.) In their 5th ed Chaos Daemons book, though, there are narrative sections from the point of view of daemons--like the one that has a bunch of them jostling around a portal and arguing about who's going to go through first. Reminds me of D&D Planescape devils having a drink in a bar, or Pain and Panic from Disney's Hercules.

Mind you, there were notable exceptions from that era, such as Dark Eldar.

Personally I tend to think of 2nd ed and 3rd ed fluff as definitive. Partly because I got into the hobby around that time, but also because the original creators of 40K (Priestley, Chambers et al) were still writing for GW back then. 5th ed onward feels like fanfiction to me. Just like WFB from 6th edition onwards (ooh, controversial ).

Older fluff does have its share of silliness though. There was a special character in the 2nd ed Sisters of Battle codex who was famous for winning a guerilla warfare campaign against Tyranids. Sure. Whatever you say.



Newcron fluff vs Oldcron fluff

I'm on the spiky gothic fence about this (ouch) because I don't really think either version is all it's cracked up to be. The Necron fluff has never quite hit the spot in any incarnation.

My main problem with the 3rd ed Necrons wasn't that they lacked personality; as a poster above said, faceless robots are just as acceptable as faceless gribbly Tyranid hordes.

It wasn't even the way they were shoehorned into the fluff as an ancient Big Bad we'd never heard of before and retconning stuff like the Eldar War in Heaven. (Tau on the other hand were introduced quite sensibly as a minor alien race recently risen to prominence.)

No, for me the trouble was that despite the valiant attempts at building a creepy atmosphere, Oldcrons didn't really seem all that scary when all was said and done. They just killed you. (Unless you had the pariah gene.)

In a universe where Hell exists right next door and eternal damnation is a very real threat, a painful death is least of your problems. Even Tyranids eat you and your planet and use the biomass to make more 'nids, which is a more primal fear than death by green laser.

Similarly, 'Tomb Kings in Space' aren't nearly as scary as actual Tomb Kings (or Vampire Counts, or other kinds of Undead) in WFB.

The essence of Undead in Fantasy was that they killed you and then turned you into one of them. Your corpse was reanimated by necromancy and ended up enslaved to fight for them forever in a horrible living death, with dim memories of your former existence. That was why they were so frightening.

(To be fair, I haven't actually read much of the Newcron fluff, so maybe this angle is already included and I just don't know it.)



A quick fix for Necron fluff

If I could change one thing about the 3rd ed Oldcrons, I'd steal a couple of ideas from Doctor Who:

Firstly, I'd reveal that their Gauss-flayer guns are actually extremely painful teleporters. If you're shot by one, you're not zapped through the Warp like regular 40K teleportation; Necrons don't like that crazy place. Instead you're taken apart atom by atom and beamed to a tomb complex to be reassembled from the inside out, sans armour and weapons, in classic sf matter transmission style.

And once they've got you, they convert you into a new Necron. Just like the Cybermen (or the Daleks now and then). Doesn't matter who you are. Ork, Eldar, Human, Tau, whatever. Pariah gene people might be especially useful, but it works on most humanoid races. Anything the Necrons can't convert, such as a Tyranid or a vehicle, they just destroy.

That would make the whole 'harvesting' angle much scarier IMO. Necrons don't just kill planetary populations and leave no trace--they vanish them because they're converting them all into fresh Necrons. Possibly the victims remain aware in some sense, forced to obey orders in an 'I have no mouth and I must scream' situation. Or maybe they're stripped of all emotion--which would deprive the Warp of emotional energy.

The more they kill, the more Necrons there are--just like fantasy Undead--and the weaker the Warp becomes. So there's no need to muck around with complicated hints about pariah genes and ancient devices to cut off the Warp from the real universe. All the Necrons have to do is go to war. It's very hard to permanently destroy a Necron once it's created (it just phases out)... but every enemy killed by a Necron is added to their ranks. Every victory creates fresh troops and calms the raging emotions of the galaxy.

Eventually, when every sapient being is a robotic zombie, Chaos will flicker and die out and the galaxy will be at peace. The peace... of the grave! Dun dun dun.

It's just a rough fanwank idea that would need a bit of finessing, but there you go.


Alternatively...


On the other hand, GW could have presented Necrons as the Men of Iron from the Dark Age of Technology. (The Old-Oldcrons from late 2nd edition certainly looked like it, at least in terms of model design.) Robots created by humans who turned on us in classic sf fashion, and now returning to finish the job.
   
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Yeah that's actually kinda cool...

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





definatly thik making them the old men of iron woulda been cool. that said the necron anti warp pylon things is actually a pretty big part of the story now. and something GW MIGHT be able to do something with... there is a LOT of potential for Necrons in the "post gathering storm era" and I'm VERY curious to see how it comes together

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BrianDavion wrote:
Patriarch Phyrx wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


I think the best nrraitve I read regarding the 'nids was in Devestation of Baal. great read


Valedor and it’s and The Last Days of Ector are similar, but with Eldar as well. The same great Tyranid characterisation (not as refined as in doB though)

Devastation of Baal is a really great example of of how characterise Tyranids. Guy Haley goes into a lot of detail exploring how they work. The Lictor character story running through it has loads to offer, and we get a look at some other species in depth too.


After reading that and Dark Imperium I've come to appreciate Haley as a writer, thinking I might go and find what other 40k stuff he's written to see if it's any good
   
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Bristol

BrianDavion wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Riptide. It fundamentally changed the Tau way of war from combined assets to "Big robots!".

The old fluff had heavy tanks and titans being taken by combined efforts of Hammerheads and aircraft. Then it was retconned that instead they developed the Riptide to fight them, even though it was worse at the job.

The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

I don't think a single unit has so drastically altered the fluff of an army in such a way since. It would be like Guilliman was only introduced in 8th edition and inserted into the victory over the tyranids as justification (can't remember which hive fleet it was).


In fairness mind you Tau are one of the more flexable and response races so I could see their doctrines actually changing. consider how much Naval doctrine changed from 1900 to 1950, just for example. we went from the old pre-dreadnoughts of 1900, to the dreadnought era, to the end of the dreadnought era and the rise of the aircraft carrier as the insturment of naval supremacy.


True, but this would be more akin to the evolution of tank design than warships. In space the navy is the air force, after all.

And we can see that tank design did not lead to the creation of ever larger tanks, due to the obvious weaknesses of an enormous tank, such as having a large profile, weighing a huge amount and that weight limiting its manoeuvrability (trying to drive it at the same speed and in the same way as a lighter tank would be impossible or put incredible strain on its drive systems) and transporting it is a logistical nightmare (it can't drive on roads as it would shred them, you can't fit many onto planes or ships as they are take up a lot of room and weight, it may even be too big to transport by train).

And the Tau did adapt to large targets before the introduction of all the enormous suits. They first used massed Hammerheads, then they also used Mantas, then they developed the Tigershark with its dual heavy railguns. The Tau had already solved the problems of imperial heavy armour before the Riptide came along, which is why GW had to retcon the fluff to make it necessary (and, again, despite the Riptide being worse at the job than the other options).

The Tau had already effectively developed the "aircraft carrier" in the form of the Manta. It was able to deliver an entire fire caste cadre and also packed enough heavy weaponry to defend itself from most enemy targets, especially when backed up by other Tau aircraft.

The Riptide and other large suits were a solution to a problem the Tau had already solved. The Ghostkeel I don't mind. It operates in a niche enough role that it makes sense, heavy weapon support for Stealth Suits. It can operate as part of an infiltration force, with capabilities not already given by other Tau weapon systems. A larger weapons platform equipped with stealth technology makes sense. A large battlesuit with inferior guns to your equally mobile tank does not.

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