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Worst Lore:

The gak storm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.

Like the Primaris models, like the Primarchs coming back (would happily see all of them back).

But the whole story advancement and background of primaris is gak. So unimaginative and bland.

Im reading dark Imperium at the moment and the dialogue is god awful. Like actually cringe worthy at points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Would you rather the Marine line stagnate and get nothing new?

YES yes yes yes YES yes YYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!
Marine range is done now focus effort on finishing other range.

Any attempt at makig a thousand marines per chapter work (or really specific numbers in general).

Anything remotely connected to people believing that Skitarii don't have their own leadership.

 Infantryman wrote:
Today I learned.

Sort of like Deep Ones in a sense, I guess. Been a while, though.

Something that would make a good RPG session plot...

Can GSCs be their own army, or are they an add-on to Nids like Cultists are to CSM?

They are their own army. They were present in 2nd ed (iirc), came back in 7th ed and are around in 8th ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zenithfleet wrote:
[

No, for me the trouble was that despite the valiant attempts at building a creepy atmosphere, Oldcrons didn't really seem all that scary when all was said and done. They just killed you. (Unless you had the pariah gene.)

Not entirely true. Necrons also performed experiments on people, such as vivisection, and direct contact with them usually led to madness. Psychological warfare is a big necron tactic, and they had weapons that quite literally terrified people into submission.
There's also a rather disturbing short story in the 3rd ed codex about what would happen if the C'tan won. Genocide would not be immediate. They would have fun "playing" with humans first.
The Deceiver, for example, would trick people into thinking they are in paradise, when in reality they are walking in broken glass.

They were, to use DnD terms, Lawful evil compared to Chaos's Chaotic Evil. There were even 4 C'tan, which I thought was an interesting parallel to the 4 Chaos Gods.
But nope, interesting themes are a bad and complicated thing, so that aspect was dropped.

I think it was mentioned somewhere as well that the Necrons will abduct people during their raids. Presumably for experimentation. Not sure I like the gauss teleporter gun idea because of that, as it sounds kind of silly and necrons already do that without zapping people all the way to the tomb world. Its a gauss flayer, not a gauss teleporter. Flayer implies that the skin is being removed, in other words, a gun that skins its target alive. Which I imagine is a dreadful way to die and must to traumatic to watch for any witnesses.
The cyberman thing sounds good though. That could be a back story for Flayed Ones, that they were "fresh" necrons who remembered they were human due to a fault. Pariahs are already basically cybermen, so why not extend that to warriors? Let pariahs be captives found to have the pariah gene and let warriors be anyone else.

I seem to rememebr CSC being a thing in some capacity c. 3.5ed but I can't really vouch for that. I know they weren't a new concept to me when I came back in 8e.

Also, are the C'Tan not a thing anymore?

 Infantryman wrote:
I seem to rememebr CSC being a thing in some capacity c. 3.5ed but I can't really vouch for that. I know they weren't a new concept to me when I came back in 8e.

Also, are the C'Tan not a thing anymore?

They are a thing, they just aren't major players. They are more like...pokemon.
Seriously, the Necrons keep them in prison devices and periodically release them against their enemies, and they scour the galaxy looking for them.

Basically, the necrons somehow rebelled against them (Dunno how they did or why the C'tan allowed them to have free will after putting them in metal bodies. 5th ed gonna 5th ed I guess) and broke them up into tiny little pieces that went everywhere. The necrons contained most but not all of them, and some escaped confinement.

 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah that's actually kinda cool...

Indeed!

The original Cron fluff was problematic to me due to the timeline. 65mm years ago? Also the whole Ctan thing to me is atrocious.I prefer a race of super advanced robobeings bent on cleansing the universe in their own way. All your organics, off my galaxy!
Now if you said 65,000 years ago, and a lot of it fits better.

 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.

except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM

BrianDavion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.

except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM

Yeah, the fact that Cadia fell, the EoT grew and the Imperium is split in two is a big problem.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Basically, the necrons somehow rebelled against them (Dunno how they did or why the C'tan allowed them to have free will after putting them in metal bodies. 5th ed gonna 5th ed I guess) and broke them up into tiny little pieces that went everywhere. The necrons contained most but not all of them, and some escaped confinement.

I was always viewed the reason that the C'tan left the control protocols with the Silent King was because they did what was agreed. Why would they expect betrayal when they had upheld their end of the bargain? It's the Silent King who broke the pact, who turned against his allies, who forced his own people into the bio-transference forges. He started a genocidal war of extermination just to stop some possible civil war from occurring. Okay yeah, maybe the C'tan should have been worried about him.

I figure C'tan shards are gonna be treated like Greater Daemons. Some of the time they'll be defeated quite easily and some of the time the mere threat of one escaping it's bounds will terrify both the Necrons and their enemies'.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.

except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM

Yeah, the fact that Cadia fell, the EoT grew and the Imperium is split in two is a big problem.

And yet so far all I have read is the imperium winning every battle, let's get some novels about chaos kicking the crap out of the imperium and guiliman losing a string of worlds that actually matter, macragge would be a good one !

 Formosa wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.

except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM

Yeah, the fact that Cadia fell, the EoT grew and the Imperium is split in two is a big problem.

And yet so far all I have read is the imperium winning every battle, let's get some novels about chaos kicking the crap out of the imperium and guiliman losing a string of worlds that actually matter, macragge would be a good one !

then you haven't read much. Fenris is in gak shape, Cadia is LOST. I'm sorry but "total defeat" isn't going to happen. this is a war game, no one's gonna win.

Primaris, Cawl... actually, anything Gathering Storm onwards is pretty atrocious. At best, there's some passable stuff.

5th edition Grey Knight lore.

BrianDavion wrote:

then you haven't read much. Fenris is in gak shape, Cadia is LOST. I'm sorry but "total defeat" isn't going to happen. this is a war game, no one's gonna win.

Fenris is crap but they're not going to kill off such a popular chapter's homeworld, so it'll be fine.

Cadia was lost, but we've already had lore where it took so long to claim it that they've built a massive string of Not!Cadias around it with so many reinforcements that the commanders are actually considering counter-attacks to retake the ruins.

Honestly Cadia falling was the best gosh darn thing to happen to the Imperium. It kickstarted Girlyman's revival, which meant we get his smug self-righteousness running around fixing the Imperium and the BESTIST-ELITE-ELITE-ELITE-ELITE Primaris to swoop around and save everybody.The Imperium was screwed for all of a thirty seconds before Abbadon inadvertently fixed it.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.

except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM

Yeah, the fact that Cadia fell, the EoT grew and the Imperium is split in two is a big problem.

And yet so far all I have read is the imperium winning every battle, let's get some novels about chaos kicking the crap out of the imperium and guiliman losing a string of worlds that actually matter, macragge would be a good one !

then you haven't read much. Fenris is in gak shape, Cadia is LOST. I'm sorry but "total defeat" isn't going to happen. this is a war game, no one's gonna win.

Fenris is pre Gathering storm, cadia is 13th black crusade 999.M41, so I reiterate my completely correct point, as it stands, the imperium appears to be winning the war, they have not shown adequately that Chaos is kicking arse, they are failing at that, instead we have

Technologically resurgent imperium (small but happening)
Primarysues
Cawl.... ergh
Guilliman being everywhere at once
Those pesky deamon primarchs always "just" losing

the list goes on

 Formosa wrote:

Fenris is pre Gathering storm, cadia is 13th black crusade 999.M41, so I reiterate my completely correct point, as it stands, the imperium appears to be winning the war, they have not shown adequately that Chaos is kicking arse, they are failing at that, instead we have

Technologically resurgent imperium (small but happening)
Primarysues
Cawl.... ergh
Guilliman being everywhere at once
Those pesky deamon primarchs always "just" losing

the list goes on

Have you seriously not read the big rulebook?

Mortarion corrupted several worlds of the Ultramar Sector. The world of Iax, "once a verdant garden world" was left in ruins with Mortarion withdrawing from a deadlocked fight against Guilliman under the cover of a fething virus bomb.

Check pages 152 to 167 in the BRB. It basically gives brief rundowns of exactly what you're wanting to see in the form of "Chaos kicking arse".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Fenris is pre Gathering storm, cadia is 13th black crusade 999.M41, so I reiterate my completely correct point, as it stands, the imperium appears to be winning the war, they have not shown adequately that Chaos is kicking arse, they are failing at that, instead we have

Technologically resurgent imperium (small but happening)
Primarysues
Cawl.... ergh
Guilliman being everywhere at once
Those pesky deamon primarchs always "just" losing

the list goes on

Have you seriously not read the big rulebook?

Mortarion corrupted several worlds of the Ultramar Sector. The world of Iax, "once a verdant garden world" was left in ruins with Mortarion withdrawing from a deadlocked fight against Guilliman under the cover of a fething virus bomb.

Check pages 152 to 167 in the BRB. It basically gives brief rundowns of exactly what you're wanting to see in the form of "Chaos kicking arse".

It's not worth arguing with people like that. they won't be able until 40k consists of chaos conquering evertything and all of 40k being the last great battle for Terra

Everything that came after 5th or 6th ed, I guess ?
The old 13th Black Crusade was PERFECT.
As others have pointed out, GW should have let the setting "stagnate". They managed to get it perfect, just before Midnight.
Then, they could have told us thousands of stories through the millenia.
But no.
They had to make the setting "progress" and to "revamp" and "refresh" lines, and brought us primais, centurions and others stupid abominations. And we still have finecast aspect warriors...
I thought 40k was reaching a new Golden Age, really. Now I know I was wrong.
I was so wrong.

Yeah, I was always bummed back in 2nd edition that when the Necrons came out they weren't eventually revealed to be Men of Iron back for revenge.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah, I was always bummed back in 2nd edition that when the Necrons came out they weren't eventually revealed to be Men of Iron back for revenge.

Yep. One of my pet peeves. If they wanted to add a robot men army, they already hat perfect background for them. Instead they chose to painfully insert them into the Eldar lore.

Personally Draigo, realistically its more then likely 'The Second Bloodtide' it edges closer to being a PR disaster. You really don't want to flirt with supporting violence against women or misogyny. I got nothing against the basic ideas founding 40k. You can have all the guy guy universe you want but this story is where some will start pointing as evidence. The story itself is kind of trap as if the roles where reversed some guys would have issues with it I'm sure. To me it makes more sense if the roles where reversed as paladins are chivalrous inclined. The story could of been just cashing checks in and calling it a life on both sides. That wouldn't of happened cause of the book it was published in, so that leaves us with not printing it to begin with.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bloodtide

 Viridian wrote:
Personally Draigo, realistically its more then likely 'The Second Bloodtide' it edges closer to being a PR disaster. You really don't want to flirt with supporting violence against women or misogyny. I got nothing against the basic ideas founding 40k. You can have all the guy guy universe you want but this story is where some will start pointing as evidence. The story itself is kind of trap as if the roles where reversed some guys would have issues with it I'm sure. To me it makes more sense if the roles where reversed as paladins are chivalrous inclined. The story could of been just cashing checks in and calling it a life on both sides. That wouldn't of happened cause of the book it was published in, so that leaves us with not printing it to begin with.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bloodtide

40k is violent against everyone. That's stupid reasoning on your end.

 Formosa wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.

except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM

Yeah, the fact that Cadia fell, the EoT grew and the Imperium is split in two is a big problem.

And yet so far all I have read is the imperium winning every battle, let's get some novels about chaos kicking the crap out of the imperium and guiliman losing a string of worlds that actually matter, macragge would be a good one !

I would rather see Orks Waugh ing against chaos myself.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.

except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM

Yeah, the fact that Cadia fell, the EoT grew and the Imperium is split in two is a big problem.

And yet so far all I have read is the imperium winning every battle, let's get some novels about chaos kicking the crap out of the imperium and guiliman losing a string of worlds that actually matter, macragge would be a good one !

I would rather see Orks Waugh ing against chaos myself.

that would be moderately more intreasting then just an endless list of chaos victories, show us chaos forces carving out their little empires (which we HAVE seen) and show us chaos having to deal with it. Chaos up until now has been much been a "they strike from the ey and return once they get what they want" narraitve. giving us examples of chaos attempting to consolidate large swaths of territory would indeed be intreasting

 Arbitrator wrote:
Primaris, Cawl... actually, anything Gathering Storm onwards is pretty atrocious. At best, there's some passable stuff.

5th edition Grey Knight lore.

BrianDavion wrote:

then you haven't read much. Fenris is in gak shape, Cadia is LOST. I'm sorry but "total defeat" isn't going to happen. this is a war game, no one's gonna win.

Fenris is crap but they're not going to kill off such a popular chapter's homeworld, so it'll be fine.

Cadia was lost, but we've already had lore where it took so long to claim it that they've built a massive string of Not!Cadias around it with so many reinforcements that the commanders are actually considering counter-attacks to retake the ruins.

Honestly Cadia falling was the best gosh darn thing to happen to the Imperium. It kickstarted Girlyman's revival, which meant we get his smug self-righteousness running around fixing the Imperium and the BESTIST-ELITE-ELITE-ELITE-ELITE Primaris to swoop around and save everybody.The Imperium was screwed for all of a thirty seconds before Abbadon inadvertently fixed it.

Russ had a vision of Abaddon killing the emperor back in the HH, and the black legion books make it pretty clear that the 13th Black Crusade can't be stopped. Plus there are a lots of custodes fighting black legion in the custodes codex, not exactly a subtle reference. The plot is advancing, and let's face it Bobby G is much more concerned with saving ultramar than he is the imperium as a whole.

Honestly, I just cant wait until they "rediscover" the lost legions... just a whole new realm of models and codexes etc. more ways for me to spend my money, because i am too stupid to realize that i am just like fish with bait right in front of me. I know better, but in the end i will buy the models, play them on the table, and wait for newer ones to come out,...

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah, I was always bummed back in 2nd edition that when the Necrons came out they weren't eventually revealed to be Men of Iron back for revenge.

.

Oh I don't know about that. There's still some room left for necron involvement with the Men of Iron incident. The void dragon is said to have control over machines, after all, and they could easily say that the Men of Iron happened due to the void dragon influencing the robots and turning them against humanity. They could even say the MoI were based off of some discovered necron tech, which is how the dragon got control of them.

Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists getting written out as captured by Dark Eldar solely based on Dave Taylor getting his mini captured in a game.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah that's actually kinda cool...

Indeed!

The original Cron fluff was problematic to me due to the timeline. 65mm years ago? Also the whole Ctan thing to me is atrocious.I prefer a race of super advanced robobeings bent on cleansing the universe in their own way. All your organics, off my galaxy!
Now if you said 65,000 years ago, and a lot of it fits better.

65 million is way more believable. That's really not a long time in terms of evolution (it's as long ago to the Imperium as the dinosaurs are to us).