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I wasn't saying they were great just a heck of a lot harder to kill.
Jam dice where not fun but it was only a 1 in six chance per dice.

Not really. There was a lot of -2 save, especially with Xenos. Ground them up pretty fast.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually SM are overflowing with units that need to be in CC.

Yes and none of them works well. This is something that should be fixed.

Whatever. Marines are a failed concept in 40K, and always have been.

Ice_can wrote:
I wasn't saying they were great just a heck of a lot harder to kill.
Jam dice where not fun but it was only a 1 in six chance per dice.

And against the regular Bolter they only have a 1/6 chance of dying. Guess how many units were more durable for the price?

3 attacks, 4 for serg? No unwieldy penalties, no -1 to hit when moving and shooting heavy weapons

That seem fairly decent?

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
3 attacks, 4 for serg? No unwieldy penalties, no -1 to hit when moving and shooting heavy weapons

That seem fairly decent?

Throw in a high feel no pain against weapons with no ap and I think we got a good unit

A very good one for sure. Wulfen are considered more than decent and basically have those stats, a better movement but a 4+ save and the -1 to hit on thunder hammers.

I'm just thinking how utterly amazing this would make WE Terminators. With the proposed new rules, they can: deep strike in, (maybe cast warptime and prescience on them), fire off their guns, re-roll charge range, hit in CC with 21*S8 AP-3 Dd3 attacks on a 3+ (2+ with prescience) and getting extra attacks on 6s (5s with prescience), maybe even attacking a second time. I could easily see a combo of a 10xWE terminator squad, a WE terminator lord and a Sorcerer being very strong with the new changes, even if it is expensive.

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators were never good. And they were never hard to kill.

In my experience the only time I've found shooty Terminators OK was during 5th, and that's only because I got to cherrypick and have the old Terminator rules with the new weapon options as a result of playing a 4th edition Codex and an FAQ.

Yeah, I fought a BT guy a lot in 5th. They were okayish, but a lowly power sword cut them to ribbons.

So what exactly makes them bad? I never actually played with Termies, though I did have some in an old (small) Marine army. Is it just that they become fire magnets (that'll make any unit bad, really), just cost too many points? I mean, they have some killing power (or at least they did in the past). They were durable under the old AP model, from my experience.

I can see how the new AP system definitely works against them, as they don't get to "ignore" anything below AP2 these days.

 Infantryman wrote:
So what exactly makes them bad? I never actually played with Termies, though I did have some in an old (small) Marine army. Is it just that they become fire magnets (that'll make any unit bad, really), just cost too many points? I mean, they have some killing power (or at least they did in the past). They were durable under the old AP model, from my experience.

I can see how the new AP system definitely works against them, as they don't get to "ignore" anything below AP2 these days.

The cost: my Termies + Termie Lord set up costs 400+pts
The damage output: hitting on 4s with the power fists is a real drop in damage done
The reliability: 9" charge for loyalists must make them next to unusable, chaos has warptime and icon of wrath but the former is an extra 100+pts for the sorcerer and the latter is Khorne only.
The survivablility: they can still drown in low strength firepower and be instakilled by anti-tank weapons, only now mid-AP low fore rate weapons can also deal with them and the Two wounds don't mean much this edition

They have two real uses: hit something hard for one turn via deepstrike and/or be a fire magnet, which is not enough for the points you invest in them

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
So what exactly makes them bad? I never actually played with Termies, though I did have some in an old (small) Marine army. Is it just that they become fire magnets (that'll make any unit bad, really), just cost too many points? I mean, they have some killing power (or at least they did in the past). They were durable under the old AP model, from my experience.

I can see how the new AP system definitely works against them, as they don't get to "ignore" anything below AP2 these days.

The cost: my Termies + Termie Lord set up costs 400+pts
The damage output: hitting on 4s with the power fists is a real drop in damage done
The reliability: 9" charge for loyalists must make them next to unusable, chaos has warptime and icon of wrath but the former is an extra 100+pts for the sorcerer and the latter is Khorne only.
The survivablility: they can still drown in low strength firepower and be instakilled by anti-tank weapons, only now mid-AP low fore rate weapons can also deal with them and the Two wounds don't mean much this edition

They have two real uses: hit something hard for one turn via deepstrike and/or be a fire magnet, which is not enough for the points you invest in them

This. fully kitted 10-man termies w/o HQ back up should be costing somewhere around 300~350 pts and it'll start sounding reasonable.

It doesn't help that the storm bolter got lumped into the same ap category as the lasgun as well.
After playing my eldar friend multiple times, having a more or less crit on a 6 to wound would actually help. (And I'm speaking about their shuriken weapons. Yes I know it's "their" thing, but frankly eldar have enough outrageous rules that they can spare one lol)

 fraser1191 wrote:
It doesn't help that the storm bolter got lumped into the same ap category as the lasgun as well.
After playing my eldar friend multiple times, having a more or less crit on a 6 to wound would actually help. (And I'm speaking about their shuriken weapons. Yes I know it's "their" thing, but frankly eldar have enough outrageous rules that they can spare one lol)

The current Storm Bolter is miles better than the old version though. Assault never came into play with anything you bought it on and it has twice the shots.

I agree with this proposal. Meganobz have exactly the same problem and it makes no sense. They're encased in a massive suit of mechanised armour, I don't think they'd have any problems swinging a big fist or klaw around.

I'd even take it if they had to go last in the fight phase. They have little problem taking hits, they just don't so enough damage because they hit on 4s. These supposed cc specialists.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
So what exactly makes them bad? I never actually played with Termies, though I did have some in an old (small) Marine army. Is it just that they become fire magnets (that'll make any unit bad, really), just cost too many points? I mean, they have some killing power (or at least they did in the past). They were durable under the old AP model, from my experience.

I can see how the new AP system definitely works against them, as they don't get to "ignore" anything below AP2 these days.

The cost: my Termies + Termie Lord set up costs 400+pts
The damage output: hitting on 4s with the power fists is a real drop in damage done
The reliability: 9" charge for loyalists must make them next to unusable, chaos has warptime and icon of wrath but the former is an extra 100+pts for the sorcerer and the latter is Khorne only.
The survivablility: they can still drown in low strength firepower and be instakilled by anti-tank weapons, only now mid-AP low fore rate weapons can also deal with them and the Two wounds don't mean much this edition

They have two real uses: hit something hard for one turn via deepstrike and/or be a fire magnet, which is not enough for the points you invest in them

The hitting of 4s is not the real issue, they used to strike at I1 in 7th and S8-10 AP2 weapons were very good, now they even cost half the points. The problem lies in the fact that in previous editions those hits could instant kill multiwounds models and a single pen could wreck a vehicle, or at least a few hits could easily kill vehicles. Now instant death has disappeared and multiwounds models, especially vehicles, have way more wounds than before. Not to mention that charging stuff doesn't grant +1A anymore.

I use my deep striking SW termies in lists that hit hard in close combat, with tons of anti infantry to clear the screeners and also wulfen that arrive from the reserve. Nothing exceptional but 5 WG termies with 3 TH/SS and 2 stormbolters/frost sword are 211 points, not a huge points sink. And they can benefit from characters like arjac that gives them +1A and a re-roll.

Martel732 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
*Cough* 3+ on 2D6 was hard to kill. But since then they juat have struggled to compaired to most thing, heck even GW admittrd they were busted in 7th and promised they were being fixed for 8th and still not a good choice :(

No it wasn't. I killed 30 of them in one game with freaking BA. Krak missiles were -6 back then and storm bolters JAMMED. 2nd ed terminators had no firepower outside the cyclone and the assault cannon. And the assault cannon ALSO jammed. They were useless garbage.

Lies. They were awesome in 2nd.

I'm a fan of making them either WS BS 2+, or removing the -1 from Pfists and Heavy weapons for them. 2+ would be a nice "legacy" thing, as in 2nd they had a higher BS and their suits came with Targeters for a virtual BS of 6.

S4 and T4 has always confused me with Terminators.

Why is someone in Tactical Dreadnought armour the same strength as someone in Power Armour?

Why is a Terminator less tough than a normal marine who's sat on a bike?

It's so anti-fluff it hurts me physically.

I don't see why they are not S5 T5 right out the gate.

I accept that would not solve the issues listed above.

 Silentz wrote:
S4 and T4 has always confused me with Terminators.

Why is someone in Tactical Dreadnought armour the same strength as someone in Power Armour?

Why is a Terminator less tough than a normal marine who's sat on a bike?

It's so anti-fluff it hurts me physically.

I don't see why they are not S5 T5 right out the gate.

I accept that would not solve the issues listed above.

Power armor guys should be S3 indeed, that's what I've always thought. The armor should only give more protection, T4 and 3+ save. Terminators with S4 are more than ok, T5 could be justified and I'd really like that but other similar units like ork meganobz have T4 like the boyz as well and they should be improved as well.

TBH termies just need a price drop in points and they are fine.


They are literally primaris intercessors with +1 save, a 5+ invun, deep strike, and a powerfist.

They should get discounted powerfists because they are a squad of non-characters and elites.

How much of an increase in points do you think the increased save is worth over intercessors (18 points per model)?

I'd say no more than 8 points for the power fist.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
*Cough* 3+ on 2D6 was hard to kill. But since then they juat have struggled to compaired to most thing, heck even GW admittrd they were busted in 7th and promised they were being fixed for 8th and still not a good choice :(

No it wasn't. I killed 30 of them in one game with freaking BA. Krak missiles were -6 back then and storm bolters JAMMED. 2nd ed terminators had no firepower outside the cyclone and the assault cannon. And the assault cannon ALSO jammed. They were useless garbage.

Lies. They were awesome in 2nd.

I'm a fan of making them either WS BS 2+, or removing the -1 from Pfists and Heavy weapons for them. 2+ would be a nice "legacy" thing, as in 2nd they had a higher BS and their suits came with Targeters for a virtual BS of 6.

Maybe the Chaos ones with specific loadouts, but your views are super naive on these topics.

Terminators awesome in 2nd? Only if you got blast masters and reaper autocannons. I saw an Eldar guy kill an entire 1st company list in 2 turns. Tell me again how awesome they were. They were useless garbage. As I said, I killed 30 with a goddamn terrible codex.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
3 attacks, 4 for serg? No unwieldy penalties, no -1 to hit when moving and shooting heavy weapons

That seem fairly decent?

Throw in a high feel no pain against weapons with no ap and I think we got a good unit[/quote


or..........

re-roll armour saves against weapons with no ap