Switch Theme:

Can the MeQ statline be saved?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Australia

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

This. It is frustrating that viable lists have departed so much from what these armies are supposed to be. Marine forces are not supposed to be all elite units and Guillman. I'm not asking for classic Codex style lists to be tournament winners, but it'd be nice to have them be at least B lists, not what they are now...
...I would like to see GW work on improving the usability of their basic marine units.


I don't understand this mentality, Meq's are fine - the only thing they are in need of is a point reduction.

Space Marines Meq's can't actually be offensively stat buffed without becoming overtuned; this is a side effect of the reroll death bubbles - YOUR Meq's are now balanced around having them active all the time.
With the auras you hit 77% of the time, a +2 to hit effectively hits 93+% of the time, same thing for wounding rolls. Complaining that they are useless is extravagant hyperbole, they hit (almost) every of their shots and wound (most) of their shots, other Meq's would cry a river for that alone.

Not to mention your 'fix' of -1 AP on all marine guns does the complete opposite of what you are after; adding more to the -AP 'problem' you were talking about.

Please don't forget you're only experiencing it from the space marine side of the fence, other armies are feeling the same thing about their own Meqs (Barring a few, namely guard and now possibly? Tsons who are over performing).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/22 02:58:44


 
   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

Bobby G implements Codex Impypants. Lorraine Russ returns and fully half the Ultimate Frowning chapters jump up to Chaos and slay PDFs to a man.

Chaos gets Nu... Primaris Marines (old habits, sry) and then we can throw out all our regular broken marines, spiked and non-spiked alike. GW releases Grav Plate upgrade kits for old broken SM tanks to become Repulzor Chassis with three extra engines and faster guns.

Once regular broken marines are binned the MEQ statline will increase dramatically.



Gets along better with animals... Go figure. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

I was originally going to do a point by point rebuttal on the OPs post, but that got tedious quickly. So let me just do the highlight edition,

All of the points about hordes are wrong, flamers weren't great against hordes, and space marines didn't depend on having ap 5 on their bolters to mow down hordes. Two reasons you didn't see hordes as a viable thing in 7th, first was sweeping advance, you could lose 2 dudes and get your whole unit of 20 swept by a single guy. The more units you piled in the more you could get swept, except for space marines because of ATSKNF. The second was blast templates, ranging from the pie plate to the over the top apoc blast templates. You had to be close enough to tickle people to get them with a flamer and then the awkward shape of it was easy to minimize damage, but pie plates could come from across the board and a 2" coherency meant you could take chunks out of all but the most strung out units. Also the sob story about how marines suffered more from the from the loss of templates is laughable wrong, Guard and Orks were much more dependent on templates due to poor weapon skill, and template nerf hit the LRBT so hard that they doubled its firepower in the codex and it's still considered so-so. This forced units to become tougher in order to survive, and lead to the rise of the death star meta, which in turn lead to the rise of GMC and stomp from super heavy walkers, then there was D weapons and grav spam and gak just went sideways fast. Near the end 7th ed was just about unplayable for armies outside of the big five (Necrons, tau, Gladius marines, eldar and daemons).

In any case the thing that makes hordes possible in 8th as compared to 7th was the removal of sweeping advance and the removal of 3" and larger templates. Neither of those are changed by the OPs suggestions. In fact his suggestions about the AP just make marines better against other marines, which actually hurts marines because marine on marine is a very common match up.

My two favorite parts where he whines about having to pay for transports (what do you mean I have to pay for my razorbacks, I didn't in 7th), and bemoaning the fact that he can't one shot vehicles anymore. The transports one is super easy, marines were in such a bad place at the end of 7th ed, that you literally had to give them several hundred points of handicap to keep them competitive. The average 8th ed battle was at 1850 points, but marines were often brining 2100 plus points worth of models, and were still getting trashed by some comps. Which is why I loathe the rose colored glasses some on this board have for 7th ed, and the thought that marines were better in the last edition when that is demonstrably false. Marines have gotten so much better in this edition that they no longer require a 20% handicap to be competitive.

The point about some weapons underperforming is true, meltas and flamers need work, no two ways about it. The risk vs reward for these short range weapons is skewed to the point where there is never a reason to take melta over a las cannon, and where a storm bolter vastly out performs a flamer in just about any case. He then takes a perfectly good point and then throws it off of a cliff by arguing that space marines need the ability to one shot vehicles to be competitive. When you could one shot a nearly 500 point vehicle with a 15 point weapon things were wrong. Vehicles were so bad in 7th ed, not only in comparison to MC and GMC, but in terms of expected performance per point invested. They fixed that by getting rid of the vehicle damage chart and handling MC and vehicles the same way, high toughness, an armor save, and a high number of wounds. A Lot of people feel like they didn't go far enough, and that heavy weapons do too much damage. We literally just had that obnoxious poll and six plus pages of people arguing about how MC and vehicles just aren't tough enough. This guy thinks we need to turn the clock back and have meltas reliably one shot heavies. What about IG meltas, they can field a metric ton of them, do you think IG needs the buff?

I could go on, but I think the point is made, a spotty memory and some rose colored glasses are a horrible yard stick for balance.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 03:37:46


Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





 Grimgold wrote:
...I could go on, but I think the point is made, a spotty memory and some rose colored glasses are a horrible yard stick for balance.


I find most complaints with 8th are usually because of this. Awesome post and I couldn't have worded it better myself.

"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 |  
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

I don't understand this mentality, Meq's are fine - the only thing they are in need of is a point reduction.


Then why are these units not worth using? Making them a point or two cheaper won't solve the problem. Make them more than a couple points cheaper, and they infringe on the territory of other stat lines and cause problems in soup lists. Yes, marines get good access to auras. Whereas other armies have more options for psychic power buffs, orders, special rules, etc. Even full re-rolls to hit and wound won't make tac marines worth fielding vs other, non-MeQ units without that.

I don't understand this mentality that MeQs are fine when they aren't used and aren't worth using. And I'll clarify again that I'm talking about the regular MeQ units, not all Marine units. And I am not denying that they aren't sometimes used as filler either.

I was originally going to do a point by point rebuttal on the OPs post, but that got tedious quickly. So let me just do the highlight edition:


I'll do the same.

Honestly I have no idea what the status of hordes were in 7th as I never played it. I said in my post I was comparing to 5th. And even if these problems did exist in 7th, I don't see what that has to do with issues now. We're talking about 8th.

Marines are hurt more by templates changing to d6 shots, because they generally have less of them. These random shot weapons average out over multiple shots better in guard and Orks because they have more of them. I won't dispute if some other armies also got hurt by it. I may even be wrong that marines were hurt MORE by it. But Marines still got less useful because of it.

I'm not arguing to make hordes/swarms weaker. I'm glad they got more useful. Doesn't mean that it's good that MeQs aren't worth using now. The AP changes will make marines better against other marines, which is probably fine. It also makes them better against swarms/hordes. Since the current meta is heavy on hordes and not heavy on MeQs, this seems fine. What's the problem?

I don't see why you're interpreting my post as whining and sobbing. Especially when you're putting words in my mouth. I never claimed transports should be free. I claimed that their increased cost made MeQs less viable. Am I wrong? I never claimed marines need to be able to 1 shot tanks, or that this was a good system. I merely claimed that the change in dynamics of anti tank weapons weakened this set of MeQ units as compared to the past. Am i wrong, or are you going to tell me that a tac marine with a melta is just as viable anti tank as it was in previous editions?

Maybe marines were broken in 7th. What's that got to do with now? This isn't 7th. The units aren't worth using. It would be good for the hobby if they were. Are we supposed to keep them weak now because they had their time in the sun in 7th? This is a stupid argument.

Do you have any objections to what I said that aren't based around total distortions of my claims? You don't actually seem to be disagreeing with these units being subpar, and I don't see why you'd want them to remain useless. You seem upset about some stuff I never claimed, like that marines need to one shot tanks to be competitive. And you seem to be mad about a bunch of stuff from 7th. Overall you just seem to be quibbling about the degree to which these changes hurt marines as compared to other armies. And you may well be correct on some of these points, but those are not THE point. You are being an ass for no reason.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

 LunarSol wrote:
I do find it kind of hilarious that the only time my MEQs feel legitimately durable is when they're being shot by bolters. :(


I have only faced marines a couple times this edition....that his how much xenos I see.

If bolters cannot take down hordes...what about making them Assault 2 or d3 or just double tap if they don't move....so 4 shots.....would that be right? I don't know marines much (haven't taken them out of the box in a year)

Seems combined bolter fire should wipe out hordes.

Some ability for tac/foot marines to fire the bolter twice if they don't move would keep most hordes at bay.

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 admironheart wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
I do find it kind of hilarious that the only time my MEQs feel legitimately durable is when they're being shot by bolters. :(


I have only faced marines a couple times this edition....that his how much xenos I see.

If bolters cannot take down hordes...what about making them Assault 2 or d3 or just double tap if they don't move....so 4 shots.....would that be right? I don't know marines much (haven't taken them out of the box in a year)

Seems combined bolter fire should wipe out hordes.

Some ability for tac/foot marines to fire the bolter twice if they don't move would keep most hordes at bay.

You'd probably need to give the average tac marine the equivalent of a storm bolter to make them decent against hordes. And by that I mean a legit Rapid Fire 2 profile. If we're talking purely making tacs more useful against horde's it's at least a start. Doesn't really help them in other areas but at least gives them some flexibility. I know as a guard player bolters are a minor nuisance, but if stormbolters are levied at squad strength it can be somewhat intimidating. Problem is Marines often have to pay for them on top of their profile which is a bitter pill to swallow.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






I think people are missing some big points that really help generalists like marines over earlier editions.

1: Units with rapid fire weapons can now assault after firing them, so a marine is able to leverage his multipurpose role in a single round.

2: Units can split fire now. No longer do the bolter guys have to waste their time doing nothing while the heavy weapon shoots at a juicy target. A squad with multiple weapon types can do the most effective thing with their respective guns each turn.

3: Heavy weapons aren't penalized nearly as much for firing on the move. A marine squad can keep mobile without sacrificing as much firepower as earlier editions, and their decent BS makes this viable.

4: Cover actually helps marines vs. small arms fire in this edition, which is new. Not only that, but the mechanic halves the effectiveness of AP 0 weapons vs marines, while 5+ armor only sees a reduction of 25% in casualties.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 04:39:43


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

 Insectum7 wrote:
I think people are missing some big points that really help generalists like marines over earlier editions.

1: Units with rapid fire weapons can now assault after firing them, so a marine is able to leverage his multipurpose role in a single round.

2: Units can split fire now. No longer do the bolter guys have to waste their time doing nothing while the heavy weapon shoots at a juicy target. A squad with multiple weapon types can do the most effective thing with their respective guns each turn.

3: Heavy weapons aren't penalized nearly as much for firing on the move. A marine squad can keep mobile without sacrificing as much firepower as earlier editions, and their decent BS makes this viable.

4: Cover actually helps marines vs. small arms fire in this edition, which is new. Not only that, but the mechanic halves the effectiveness of AP 0 weapons vs marines, while 5+ armor only sees a reduction of 25% in casualties.


These are all good points. I did not go over all the bonuses in my original post as it would have gotten too long, and I was trying to summarize. But I'm not claiming nothing has helped these units this edition. But despite these things, these units remain not worth using.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





ashmizen wrote:
3+ is meaningless this edition


Funny, I've seen people claim this in 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th as well.

MEQ's are thougher than ever in 8th.
S6 and S7 only wound them on 3+ now (used to be 2+), they can be put in cover for a 2+, and things that used to be AP3 is now AP -2, so MEQ's even get a save against things that used to ignore their save altogether.

And giving bolters AP -1 would break the game. Massed bolters and stormbolters are already much better at killing vehicles than they used to be. With AP -1 there would be no point in taking Vehicles with T7 or lower.



5500 pts
6500 pts
7000 pts
9000 pts
13.000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I think people are missing some big points that really help generalists like marines over earlier editions.

1: Units with rapid fire weapons can now assault after firing them, so a marine is able to leverage his multipurpose role in a single round.

2: Units can split fire now. No longer do the bolter guys have to waste their time doing nothing while the heavy weapon shoots at a juicy target. A squad with multiple weapon types can do the most effective thing with their respective guns each turn.

3: Heavy weapons aren't penalized nearly as much for firing on the move. A marine squad can keep mobile without sacrificing as much firepower as earlier editions, and their decent BS makes this viable.

4: Cover actually helps marines vs. small arms fire in this edition, which is new. Not only that, but the mechanic halves the effectiveness of AP 0 weapons vs marines, while 5+ armor only sees a reduction of 25% in casualties.


These are all good points. I did not go over all the bonuses in my original post as it would have gotten too long, and I was trying to summarize. But I'm not claiming nothing has helped these units this edition. But despite these things, these units remain not worth using.


They are basically the only units I use.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

 Insectum7 wrote:


They are basically the only units I use.


Are you beating competitive tournament lists?

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






I'll say sometimes, as my local meta is quite varied. We rarely play itc style too, which is different than BRB or the open war which I see more often.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire




I genuinely don't get this, "Space Marines need to be uber badasses because fluff" argument. There seems to be a massive blind spot in applying it to other armies:

-by fluff, Tyranids should be rapidly adapting and expanding their numbers as they die. You can't do the first half at all effectively, and the second half without spending points.

-by fluff, Eldar should already know how the battle will turn out and have planned around it, so there's no way you should be able to beat them

-by fluff, Necrons should phase out of the battle as they start losing.

Maybe some imagination would help: imagine each Space Marine model on the table as one marine, and each Guardsman/cultist/whatever as 100. There, you have your badasses.

If you want everything by fluff and then get sad when game stats get appointed to them, you're going to forever be disappointed. You want an RPG, not 40k.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I personally think the changes to melee combat really hurt marines. Before you could throw them into a weaker unit (utilizing their generalist toolset) and grind out a win or sweep them. Now you kill a couple, because they don’t kill very much in melee as stock marines, then the enemies just falls back in their turn and their army blasts you. To wipe a unit in melee you have to be super good and specialized to crush them in a single phase, otherwise all you can do is stop something for shooting for a single turn and die in the process.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Killermonkey wrote:
I personally think the changes to melee combat really hurt marines. Before you could throw them into a weaker unit (utilizing their generalist toolset) and grind out a win or sweep them. Now you kill a couple, because they don’t kill very much in melee as stock marines, then the enemies just falls back in their turn and their army blasts you. To wipe a unit in melee you have to be super good and specialized to crush them in a single phase, otherwise all you can do is stop something for shooting for a single turn and die in the process.

I agree; there really isn't much purpose to an annoyance assault unit with the fall back rules as they are. The exception is if that unit happens to be extremely durable like Canoptek Wraiths, who will keep tying up your shooting every turn if you don't funnel everything into killing them. Tactical Marines are not durable like Wraiths.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




There are two obvious solutions:

1) Reduce the price point of a MEQ so it becomes slightly more than twice as expensive as a GEQ. Say 11 points to 5 points. A tactical is a little more than twice as durable as a guardsman and has a little less than twice the damage output, is less effected by morale and helped more by cover. The space marines statline is just not the statline of a super-soldier, it is the statline of a better-soldier.

2) The other solution is to give space marines +1A -1 AP +1W. That is the route taken by primaris marines, and this would be my preferred solution, essentially removing any distinction between old-marines and nu-marines. Intercessors are fine at 18 ppm, and rubrics would be fine too at 18 points per model. They are basically a well designed unit.

But whatever solution is taken, plasma needs to be nerfed. Plasma is simply way too strong. But that is not a problem that concerns the MEQ statline specifically.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Arachnofiend wrote:
Killermonkey wrote:
I personally think the changes to melee combat really hurt marines. Before you could throw them into a weaker unit (utilizing their generalist toolset) and grind out a win or sweep them. Now you kill a couple, because they don’t kill very much in melee as stock marines, then the enemies just falls back in their turn and their army blasts you. To wipe a unit in melee you have to be super good and specialized to crush them in a single phase, otherwise all you can do is stop something for shooting for a single turn and die in the process.

I agree; there really isn't much purpose to an annoyance assault unit with the fall back rules as they are. The exception is if that unit happens to be extremely durable like Canoptek Wraiths, who will keep tying up your shooting every turn if you don't funnel everything into killing them. Tactical Marines are not durable like Wraiths.


Forcing a unit to not fire next turn by touching it is a powerful thing. "I touched your Predator tank, neener neener."

Because of the morale rules this edition it's still often beneficial to go for those extra couple kills, as they can essentially count double.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 07:01:57


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Totally anecdotal, but I won my first 2k pts game against my friend by playing my Ad-mech army instead. Since the start of 8th I beat his tau army once, marines are missing something.

As far I can guess from reading this thread, they sucked in 7th and suck in 8th. I think we just see it now because we don't have said "20%" handicap now.

As a marine player I'd like to be able to take say a lascannon in a squad but not have every other marine as a glorified wound.
As a marine player I can say that that's all they are.

Now I now somebody is gonna say they are X percentage more durable than edition Y. That's irrelevant and the argument is the same as the "sins of our father". (The wraith knight is a prime example of this)

Ad-mech is not crazy good or topping a lot of charts but I was able to do most things I could never do with marines and I had a big gak eating grin the entire time.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 Insectum7 wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Killermonkey wrote:
I personally think the changes to melee combat really hurt marines. Before you could throw them into a weaker unit (utilizing their generalist toolset) and grind out a win or sweep them. Now you kill a couple, because they don’t kill very much in melee as stock marines, then the enemies just falls back in their turn and their army blasts you. To wipe a unit in melee you have to be super good and specialized to crush them in a single phase, otherwise all you can do is stop something for shooting for a single turn and die in the process.

I agree; there really isn't much purpose to an annoyance assault unit with the fall back rules as they are. The exception is if that unit happens to be extremely durable like Canoptek Wraiths, who will keep tying up your shooting every turn if you don't funnel everything into killing them. Tactical Marines are not durable like Wraiths.


Forcing a unit to not fire next turn by touching it is a powerful thing. "I touched your Predator tank, neener neener."

Because of the morale rules this edition it's still often beneficial to go for those extra couple kills, as they can essentially count double.

I'm guessing you stopped reading my post after the first sentence, because if you had read the whole thing you would know I agree with that assessment. My disagreement is that assault marines just aren't very good at it; it's a trick they will manage to do maybe once if they're lucky and then get blown off the table for minimal investment. On the other hand wraith are HARD to get rid of and will keep tying up more and more shooting every turn if you don't invest seriously high amounts of firepower into taking them down.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I genuinely don't get this, "Space Marines need to be uber badasses because fluff" argument. There seems to be a massive blind spot in applying it to other armies:

-by fluff, Tyranids should be rapidly adapting and expanding their numbers as they die. You can't do the first half at all effectively, and the second half without spending points.

-by fluff, Eldar should already know how the battle will turn out and have planned around it, so there's no way you should be able to beat them

-by fluff, Necrons should phase out of the battle as they start losing.

Maybe some imagination would help: imagine each Space Marine model on the table as one marine, and each Guardsman/cultist/whatever as 100. There, you have your badasses.

If you want everything by fluff and then get sad when game stats get appointed to them, you're going to forever be disappointed. You want an RPG, not 40k.


Why stop there? Just have 1 set of rules for every army, and you just imagine it is whatever you want! Now we only need 1 codex, and every match is perfectly balanced! Or just imagine you won, and don't ever bother playing! The amount of imagination it takes to understand why people want their armies to have some relation to the fluff, and have their basic units actually be useful, isn't high.

And Tyranids don't adapt moment to moment in battle. Various eldar psychic powers are described as being tied to their foresight. And Necrons literally used to have that as a rule, but it turned out to not be much fun so they scrapped it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 08:59:30


Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy






 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Mewens wrote:
Strongly disagree with the premise here. Baseline MEQs are showing up in tournament lists (RG, BA, Bobby G, various Imperial soups). They might not be the stars, but how many lists can say their troop choices are better than "good at holding down the fort for the real workhorses"? Even IG can't claim that.

I get the contempt for soup, and Lord knows that there's some overall balance issues in this edition, but come the on. There are literally dozens of units that just don't see play even in casual contexts, but we're focused on 5ish units with wildly different roles across two unrelated factions because ... they're all T4 and Sv 3+? Because they all have Unkillium-forged special-mans armor? Because they're not Scouts or Devastators?

... Though I'll concede that bikers could get some love. But only if they have sweet mohawks.

I think the issue is more that these guys are sold on the premise that even a basic tactical squad is supposed to be the equivalent of other armies super special elite units. For example, a tac squad should be able to mop the floor with an IG veteran squad, yet the IG vets will usually win that trade considering they can afford a ton of special weapons for the cost of just a baseline tac squad. And IG vets are overall a pretty mediocre unit this edition, to say nothing of Stormtroopers, which are far and away superior to tac Marines in almost every way.

People are annoyed that Marines are underwhelming in much the same way they would be if IG tanks sucked or say Eldar pyskers were the worst in the game. Tac Marines and by extension other baseline power armored Marines are supposed to be truly terrifying to face in the lore, yet in game I can easily crush them with an equivalent pts worth of guardsmen to the point that it's trivial. These are the poster child units for their codex, the ones that make the army what it is in the lore. For an army that has its whole identity based on being elite that's a huge red flag, and I say this as a guy who can't stand the amount of marine spank in 40k.

Power armored tac Marines are supposed to be veterans of dozens of battles that can put the baseline of most other armies to shame, and yet they're so terrible that new players are outright told to avoid them. That's a serious sign of an army not working as intended. I personally see it as no different than if IG infantry squads or Ork boys were terrible. This is a unit that is supposed to make up the bulk of your army. When players are going out of their way to avoid these units it's a sign you have failed at writing that codex.


I don't play marine, but I agree so much on this. I know fluff and crunch have to be separate things, but in the specific Tactical Marines case, the difference is IMHO way too important.

I personally think that the Primaris statline is what should actually be the Marine one, but there is not much that can be done about that until the end of 8th.

Since Tacs are more experienced than Scouts, Assaults and Devs and reputed for their versatility they could have some minor specific rule. With a small point drop, they'd be, no matter what some may say, a decent shooting unit for a troop slot. Add them +1A (and to Tacs only), and here is their versatility.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Make GEQ statline T2 and lasguns S2 and the problem is solved.

Alternatively, make boltgun AP-1, add a blurb "when attacking vehicles, it has AP value of 0."

MEQ statline is good and only slightly overpriced. The main issue is that GEQ are more durable and damaging that ever.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Melee stats can be safely ignored most of the time in most games. That's the issue. Because marines get shot and killed before they can punch. So the melee stats basically need to be free, or marines need to be harder to kill. Those are the only two options in 8th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 14:47:22


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Martel732 wrote:
Melee stats can be safely ignored most of the time in most games. That's the issue. Because marines get shot and killed before they can punch. So the melee stats basically need to be free, or marines need to be harder to kill. Those are the only two options in 8th.


Eugh, I'd hate to see what Berzerkers look like with all their melee stats (& presumably gear?) coming for free.

Or do they not count as MEQ because ... reasons?
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Pffft you think having marines be bad destroys Lore accurate armies! Look at deathwing Dark Angels armies! They're outright broken in the wrong way! I've seen armies half the points destroy them. XD
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Melee stats can be safely ignored most of the time in most games. That's the issue. Because marines get shot and killed before they can punch. So the melee stats basically need to be free, or marines need to be harder to kill. Those are the only two options in 8th.


Eugh, I'd hate to see what Berzerkers look like with all their melee stats (& presumably gear?) coming for free.

Or do they not count as MEQ because ... reasons?


One subfaction of CSM can field effective berzerkers. Alpha legion. All others die before they get to swing once. So alpha legion might need a rework. But outside alpha legion, berzerkers are a joke.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Arachnofiend wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Killermonkey wrote:
I personally think the changes to melee combat really hurt marines. Before you could throw them into a weaker unit (utilizing their generalist toolset) and grind out a win or sweep them. Now you kill a couple, because they don’t kill very much in melee as stock marines, then the enemies just falls back in their turn and their army blasts you. To wipe a unit in melee you have to be super good and specialized to crush them in a single phase, otherwise all you can do is stop something for shooting for a single turn and die in the process.

I agree; there really isn't much purpose to an annoyance assault unit with the fall back rules as they are. The exception is if that unit happens to be extremely durable like Canoptek Wraiths, who will keep tying up your shooting every turn if you don't funnel everything into killing them. Tactical Marines are not durable like Wraiths.


Forcing a unit to not fire next turn by touching it is a powerful thing. "I touched your Predator tank, neener neener."

Because of the morale rules this edition it's still often beneficial to go for those extra couple kills, as they can essentially count double.

I'm guessing you stopped reading my post after the first sentence, because if you had read the whole thing you would know I agree with that assessment. My disagreement is that assault marines just aren't very good at it; it's a trick they will manage to do maybe once if they're lucky and then get blown off the table for minimal investment. On the other hand wraith are HARD to get rid of and will keep tying up more and more shooting every turn if you don't invest seriously high amounts of firepower into taking them down.


I read your whole post, I just think the "forcing units to not shoot" is being undervalued.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

TAC squads should have a generalist rule that gives them the ability to pick between buffs before the game starts.

make them base:

3 toughness, 4+ bs, 4+ ws, 1 attack, 1 wound.

You can increase 2 of these categories by 1.
You can increase 1 of these categories by 2.
You cannot increase the same category twice.

This is done army-wide, regardless of <faction> and <chapter>. So no mix & match.

So you could have 3 toughness, 2+bs, 3wound marines.
Or you could have 3 attack, 3+ws, 4 toughness marines.

It gives them tactical flexibility based on the army they're facing. So they pay for being generalists but in a way that actually works for the controlling player.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




I agree tactical marines are poor. Bolter shooting is some of the weakest in the game. Not sure about the lengthy list that comes afterwards which seems like a more generic complaint about 8th that could apply to many factions.

Tactical marine melee is also a joke. Non-special rule buffed assault marines are not much better. Saying "Infiltrated Zerkers are good" when they do about 6 times the damage is meaningleas.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: