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Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

As title says. I'm putting together a Tzeentch army but I can't really find any good anti-tank options across the two codices, what are other people using?

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Made in hk
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant




Use TS Predators , take 4 (incase 1 of them might die in enemy alpha strike), use killshot stratagem lol.

Or, just spam smite and / or other Mortal Wound goodies. Psychic or not.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

Exalted Flamers, mortal wound spam, GUOs, DPs in HtH, Preds, heck, even Horrors can get work done against T8 if you buff them to S5. It's probably not the build's best skill, but it manageable IMO.

Personally, I'd try the list with minimal dedicated ranged AT but lots of mortal wounds, volume dakka and buff options and some DPs for HtH. I don't think you'll have as much of a problem as you might think. Honestly, Horrors with minimal buffs can put a lot of wounds on anything under T8, and when you add mortal wounds and HtH finishers, you be fine. YMMV based on your meta of course.

He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Exalted flamers, battlecannon/lascannon defilers, mortal wounds, inferno bolts in a pinch, and pretty frequently, tzaangors surrounding and pounding vehicles while sorcs dip in to help finish them off.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Speargors are pretty efficient if you can find a way to get them into melee.
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





Thousand Sons have plenty of anti-tank at their disposal.

Shooting:
- Dakka-Helbrutes (especially with the Firefrenzy.)
- Enlightened /w Greatbows.
- Chaos Predators.
- Defilers/Forgefiends (especially with Daemonforge.)
- Vindicators are decent for their cost.
- With lack of a better target, Rubrics/SOT's are pretty good at killing T7 stuff, especially if you give them VotLW.

Melee:
- Daemon Princes (at least with Diabolic Strenght)
- Chaos Spawns (especially with Fated Mutation)
- Enlightened with Spears (especially with Mutalith -1AP)
- Maulerfiends.
- Tzaangors can easily down T7 targets due to the sheer number of attacks they can dish out.
- With lack of a better target, SOT's are pretty good at killing T7 stuff due to their powerswords, especially if you give them VotLW.

And then you can add buffs like +1 to hit (Prescience), +1 to wound on ranged attacks for Enlightened/Daemon engines (Flickering Fire) and +1 S/+1 AP from Mutaliths and you're pretty much set.

I find that my World Eaters have more trouble dealing with tanks than my Thousand Sons does.

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Made in ch
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

Honestly VotlW is the only thing you really need, especially with big units of rubrics or scarabs. If the enemy goes overboard on anti-tank, then daemonforge on a las defiler or hades forgefiend.

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Made in fr
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Scarab Occult Terminators and Rubric Marines are *not* good at antitank. Even with Veterans of the Long War (1 CP), Scarabs are just average at dealing with T7/3+sv (2.5 dmg dealt / 100pts) and terrible at dealing with T8. Rubrics are even worse, since they don't have Helfyre racks.

Exalted Flamers are slightly above average if they don't move (2.9 dmg / 100pts) and slightly below if they move (2.22 dmg / 100pts). They're incredibly durable since they're characters and thus cannot be targeted until your screening units are dead.

Tzaangors enlightened (Spears) are very good, even without support (4.5 dmg / 100pts). With support (Shaman, Prescience), they're the most damaging anti-tank units in the game. They're fragile however, so you might want to hide them on first turn and Warptime them ASAP to make good use of them. They will also suffer from Morale issues, so running MSU might be better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/26 11:44:46


Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
   
Made in dk
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

 Nym wrote:
Scarab Occult Terminators and Rubric Marines are *not* good at antitank. Even with Veterans of the Long War (1 CP), Scarabs are just average at dealing with T7/3+sv (2.5 dmg dealt / 100pts) and terrible at dealing with T8. Rubrics are even worse, since they don't have Helfyre racks.

Exalted Flamers are slightly above average if they don't move (2.9 dmg / 100pts) and slightly below if they move (2.22 dmg / 100pts). They're incredibly durable since they're characters and thus cannot be targeted until your screening units are dead.

Tzaangors enlightened (Spears) are very good, even without support (4.5 dmg / 100pts). With support (Shaman, Prescience), they're the most damaging anti-tank units in the game. They're fragile however, so you might want to hide them on first turn and Warptime them ASAP to make good use of them. They will also suffer from Morale issues, so running MSU might be better.


HtH vs shooting. Huge difference. Speargors need to get there, rubrics/scarabs can just deepstrike in double tap range and start shooting. Also, since it is going to be a TS list, the anti-tank unit (whichever it is) will probably be benefiting also from other buffs, such as character aura, prescience and - in the case of daemon engines- also flickering flames. I managed to get a first turn Morty kill by deepstriking scarabs + buffs + death hex. Scarabs alone did 10 wounds on him, and morty definitely counts as a tank for the purposes of this discussion.

In fact I think that a las defiler/hades forgefiend with daemonforge, votlw and flickering flames can completely evaporate any kind of enemy tank whatsoever, especially if you use the gaze of fate reroll to get a nice number of battlecannon shots. But that's 2CP a turn on a single machine so maybe not necessary.

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topaxygouroun i wrote:
I managed to get a first turn Morty kill by deepstriking scarabs + buffs + death hex. Scarabs alone did 10 wounds on him, and morty definitely counts as a tank for the purposes of this discussion.

Dude, it takes a 468pts unit AND VotLW AND Prescience / Death Hex on a support character (104pts at the very least) AND you need to pass WC7 and WC8 powers without getting denied to put 10 wounds on Mortarion with Scarabs.

290pts of Obliterators with the same support would have done 11 wounds. That's shooting too.
200pts of Tzaangor Enlightened (Spears) with Prescience or a Shaman (90pts) and VotLW (no Death Hex) would deal 10 wounds.

Scarabs can kill anything in the game, yes. Just like 10000 Gretchins can destroy a Titan. But are they efficient at killing tanks ? Absolutely not.

Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

 Nym wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
I managed to get a first turn Morty kill by deepstriking scarabs + buffs + death hex. Scarabs alone did 10 wounds on him, and morty definitely counts as a tank for the purposes of this discussion.

Dude, it takes a 468pts unit AND VotLW AND Prescience / Death Hex on a support character (104pts at the very least) AND you need to pass WC7 and WC8 powers without getting denied to put 10 wounds on Mortarion with Scarabs.

290pts of Obliterators with the same support would have done 11 wounds. That's shooting too.
200pts of Tzaangor Enlightened (Spears) with Prescience or a Shaman (90pts) and VotLW (no Death Hex) would deal 10 wounds.

Scarabs can kill anything in the game, yes. Just like 10000 Gretchins can destroy a Titan. But are they efficient at killing tanks ? Absolutely not.


Oblits are not part of TS armies. You can get them as CSM and even put them Mark of Tzeentch, but that was not part of the question. The question is specific to TS and Daemons, so Obliterators are out. Speargors would die before they ever got close to Morty. You can't look anti-tank in a vacuum setting, you need to consider the state of the battlefield at any given moment. ie your opponent might be bubble wrapping their tanks so the enlightened will have to go through two layers of killing. Also you could deepstrike your speargors and go for warptime and T1 charge, but then you probably are not getting the shaman in there at the same turn. So you need to get your warptime and charge in hth against an non-bubble wrapped target. Doable, but only if your opponent deploys badly. But shooting can always get there.

Also, many armies have interceptor stratagems for dealing with Deep strikers. Scarabs have an infinitely better chance of getting alive through the intercept than the tzaangor. And if you need to bait the intercept with another unit first, then you are not paying just 200 pts on your bomb.

Sure the scarabs were expensive and the whole list was built around them. But if you want something big dead that's how you should build your list in the first place. Can't just buy a couple of las predators and expect to oneshot mortarion on a first turn. In my case, I needed it not to play because just his aura would decimate my list. So I had to double down on everything.

Spells on the scarabs are not hard, that's why we have cabalistic focus and termie sorc warlord to be able to cast that one critical spell with a +4 bonus. Suddenly Death Hex is a 4+ cast spell. Also with a +4 bonus and two potential rerolls I am not getting denied any time soon.

TL,DR version: You can't mathhammer on this one. Anti-tank does not exist in a vacuum. You need to calculate the fact that tanks will be in the back ranks, possibly bubble wrapped and protected from charges. Fielding a speargor bomb does not guarantee you tank killing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/26 13:57:21


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Longtime Dakkanaut




Defiler w/ twin laz, Flickering flames, prescience, and deamonforge if your really paranoid about something not dying will kill vehicles dead. In my tournament I was just in this combo killed everything it ran up against vehicle wise. Many enemy tanks didn't even get a turn of shooting.

Next to that, exalted flamers are sweet, and deamon princes are super effective.

   
Made in fr
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





topaxygouroun i wrote:
TL,DR version: You can't mathhammer on this one.

You're telling me that you deepstruck 10 Terminators less than 12" away from Mortarion, and then you're talking about screens ? C'mon... If you take screens into account, Scarabs can't be considered AT ALL for anti-tank duty. You will never be able to deepstrike them close enough to a backline of tanks. Be of good faith mate, because there's no point discussing if you're not.

Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

Getting DS anything on target requires planning and tactics. It's not a complete barrier to success though. If you have chaff clearing dakka, and maybe some smaller HtH DS to throw in first, it's not that hard to clear direct routes to juicier targets. Yes, you need to plan for intercept, but that's not a reason why the Gor bomb "won't work" any more than it prevents Bloodletter bombs from working. If it was auto-win there's be no point in playing the game.

He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I think in general my issue with speargor bombs v tzaangor bombs is one of specialization and reliability.

speargors move 24" with warptime and charge with fly. The fly is nice, but typically that 24" move either puts you on the edge of the enemy deployment line, or farther back if you lacked a really good LOS blocking feature to hide them right on the line. Tzaangors drop in 9" from wherever the farthest out enemy unit is, then walk 3" in. I find that generally gets them closer to the enemy line on average. And in general, regular gors have the advantage of not being on the board at all in the beginning and having 1W instead of 2 which is nice for not getting spiked by plasma/autocannons/whatever.

I think speargors have a much better peak of effectiveness, and tzaangors have better baseline/average. Since I use the Tzaangors purely as a single unit auxiliary element, the reliability is what I lean towards.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I have been a fan of the Rubric swap of time trick recently. Take as big a squad of rubrics as you can, deep strike them. Then after they land use the familiar stratagem to swap their crap smite with warp time and move them up some. Veterans of the long war - bam. Now your inside your enemy's deployment area, probably double tapping, and you can charge if you want to. Scarab occult can be probably better used here honestly, but I don't have any so I can't do more than mathhammer them. Still rubrics can be... persuasive with this. Hitting on 3's, wounding T7 on 4's, -2 Ap? It's almost like they have plasma.....
   
 
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