Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 vict0988 wrote:

You are better off without the transdimensional beamers, too expensive, at least build them without it and just proxy the naked Wraiths as disco Wraiths for the one game it'll take you to regret it. Nephrekh Scarabs and Wraiths are amazing. The Cryptek is nice, there's a Stratagem that allows you to get Wraiths back and going from 5+ to 4+ is nice, the CCB is okay if you have Tesla Immortals, but quite terrible otherwise.

I considered the pistols instead (as they're pretty cheap) but I didn't like how little punch they have that way and with how whip coils were nerfed in this edition I feel like it's important to soften the target a bit before mashing into targets face first.

I won't deny they are very expensive guns though for not that much output (and a heavy profile to boot). I guess I was just considering them a bit of a distraction Carnifex that can cause a mess if they hit, and able to tank a fair bit of hits if to protrct the army that is moving into position.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I considered the pistols instead (as they're pretty cheap) but I didn't like how little punch they have that way and with how whip coils were nerfed in this edition I feel like it's important to soften the target a bit before mashing into targets face first.

I won't deny they are very expensive guns though for not that much output (and a heavy profile to boot). I guess I was just considering them a bit of a distraction Carnifex that can cause a mess if they hit, and able to tank a fair bit of hits if to protrct the army that is moving into position.

It's generally pretty bad to shoot something before you charge it, especially with Nephrekh Wraiths since they can perform ultra-long charges and you want those to go off as often as possible, shooting an enemy unit before charging it increases likelyhood of failure, so everyone always just takes Wraiths naked. Coils are terrible and terribly overpriced sadly, every weapon for the Wraiths is overpriced. Think of it this way, a storm bolter is 2 pts, how is pistol 1 S6 twice as good as RF 2 S4? They'll distract your opponent whether you put guns on them or not, they can punch good against pretty much any target and if you use them to tag enemy vehicles or assasinate enemy characters your opponent will learn to hate them and leave your other units alone. You can also invest in C'tan Shards which provide some extra damage, they need some durable front-liners to tank for them though and they want to be in melee, both Wraiths and Scarabs are great bodyguards for this purpose. You are basically putting even more weight on your opponent to deal with your Wraiths/Scarabs quickly otherwise the C'tan will get in and do nasty things with cosmic fire.

 vict0988 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I considered the pistols instead (as they're pretty cheap) but I didn't like how little punch they have that way and with how whip coils were nerfed in this edition I feel like it's important to soften the target a bit before mashing into targets face first.

I won't deny they are very expensive guns though for not that much output (and a heavy profile to boot). I guess I was just considering them a bit of a distraction Carnifex that can cause a mess if they hit, and able to tank a fair bit of hits if to protrct the army that is moving into position.

It's generally pretty bad to shoot something before you charge it, especially with Nephrekh Wraiths since they can perform ultra-long charges and you want those to go off as often as possible, shooting an enemy unit before charging it increases likelyhood of failure, so everyone always just takes Wraiths naked. Coils are terrible and terribly overpriced sadly, every weapon for the Wraiths is overpriced. Think of it this way, a storm bolter is 2 pts, how is pistol 1 S6 twice as good as RF 2 S4? They'll distract your opponent whether you put guns on them or not, they can punch good against pretty much any target and if you use them to tag enemy vehicles or assasinate enemy characters your opponent will learn to hate them and leave your other units alone. You can also invest in C'tan Shards which provide some extra damage, they need some durable front-liners to tank for them though and they want to be in melee, both Wraiths and Scarabs are great bodyguards for this purpose. You are basically putting even more weight on your opponent to deal with your Wraiths/Scarabs quickly otherwise the C'tan will get in and do nasty things with cosmic fire.

Excellent points all around.

But why shoot the charge target (unless it's something big like a knight)? We don't have to charge what we shoot after all. And shooting units that can provide supporting fire for Overwatch while preventing the target from shooting with the Staff seems a good use of splitting fire.

I know I'm probably rationalizing it, I just think it has some fas as a combo, even if the points are a bit heavy.

I am convinced the CCB is probably wasted there though, so if I try this nonsense out it'll be with the Cryptek with cloak (thankfully I got one in the Apoc Outrider detachment box).

Wraith can shoot their pistols in melee, which doesn't change the fact that they are overpriced. And your opponent gets cover against those shots, so they are pretty much useless.

 p5freak wrote:
Wraith can shoot their pistols in melee, which doesn't change the fact that they are overpriced. And your opponent gets cover against those shots, so they are pretty much useless.

Pistols in melee doesn't feel that useful since most units would rather disengage with the Wraiths and shoot them meaning you'll rarely start a tutn with them in combat.

Cover only applies in very specific situations, but it's a fair point against giving them shooting weapons (shame because Beamers aren't bad guns and would be very playable at half their current cost).

Those guns basically buy a Tomb Blade each before I add guns so that seems like a better use of points as I build off of the Outrider detachment I picked up.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Wraith can shoot their pistols in melee, which doesn't change the fact that they are overpriced. And your opponent gets cover against those shots, so they are pretty much useless.

Pistols in melee doesn't feel that useful since most units would rather disengage with the Wraiths and shoot them meaning you'll rarely start a tutn with them in combat.

Only if you let them leave combat. There are ways to prevent this.

So just for fun I broke out the old combat calculator to try something out and on average a unit of 6 beamer Wraiths can expect to kill 2 Marines (or one Primaris), of 5 Fire Warrior (or T3 model with 4+ or worse).

Basically decent guns, but not 14 point good. And with that we bascially put the last nail in the coffin of giving Wraiths guns (for now at least). It's a shame because the idea looks like a fun way of causing some pain to your opponent, but once math and points get involved it falls apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Wraith can shoot their pistols in melee, which doesn't change the fact that they are overpriced. And your opponent gets cover against those shots, so they are pretty much useless.

Pistols in melee doesn't feel that useful since most units would rather disengage with the Wraiths and shoot them meaning you'll rarely start a tutn with them in combat.

Only if you let them leave combat. There are ways to prevent this.

Unless they have fly, because we don't have wargear or rules go lock people into combat.

Shame we can't have Mindshackle Scarabs back for that purpose.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So just for fun I broke out the old combat calculator to try something out and on average a unit of 6 Wraits can expect to kill 2 Marines (or one Primaris), of 5 Fire Warrior (or T3 model with 4+ or worse).

Basically decent guns, but not 14 point good. And with that we bascially put the last nail in the coffin of giving Wraiths guns (for now at least). It's a shame because the idea looks like a fun way of causing some pain to your opponent, but once math and points get involved it falls apart.

The tyranny of math. You can still do it in casual games, you can create some pretty mean lists with Nephrekh Wraiths and Scarabs so tuning it down by taking overpriced weapons might be a good idea when playing against newer players or players with bad armies.

 vict0988 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So just for fun I broke out the old combat calculator to try something out and on average a unit of 6 Wraits can expect to kill 2 Marines (or one Primaris), of 5 Fire Warrior (or T3 model with 4+ or worse).

Basically decent guns, but not 14 point good. And with that we bascially put the last nail in the coffin of giving Wraiths guns (for now at least). It's a shame because the idea looks like a fun way of causing some pain to your opponent, but once math and points get involved it falls apart.

The tyranny of math. You can still do it in casual games, you can create some pretty mean lists with Nephrekh Wraiths and Scarabs so tuning it down by taking overpriced weapons might be a good idea when playing against newer players or players with bad armies.

Good point there. I don't really go all in on competetive play, but I have a hard time shaking out the whole list optimization that comes with that habit.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Wraith can shoot their pistols in melee, which doesn't change the fact that they are overpriced. And your opponent gets cover against those shots, so they are pretty much useless.

Pistols in melee doesn't feel that useful since most units would rather disengage with the Wraiths and shoot them meaning you'll rarely start a tutn with them in combat.

Cover only applies in very specific situations, but it's a fair point against giving them shooting weapons (shame because Beamers aren't bad guns and would be very playable at half their current cost).

Those guns basically buy a Tomb Blade each before I add guns so that seems like a better use of points as I build off of the Outrider detachment I picked up.

Yeah, the pistol in melee rule seems kind of useless when falling back is a thing.
They should have made it so that if a unit falls back, you can choose to shoot them with pistols.
Funnily enough, the falling back mechanic would have also worked great with the initiative stat; roll off initiative, and if you fail you get stuck in combat. GW didn't really think it through.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yeah, the pistol in melee rule seems kind of useless when falling back is a thing.
They should have made it so that if a unit falls back, you can choose to shoot them with pistols.
Funnily enough, the falling back mechanic would have also worked great with the initiative stat; roll off initiative, and if you fail you get stuck in combat. GW didn't really think it through.

Agreed, it's definitely a missed opportunity, much like a lot of things in the Necron book.

I'm still salty on how far the Monolith has fallen from where it was on 3rd edition.

I'm sure if enough of us email them, they'll fix it.
They can't block all of us.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Unless they have fly, because we don't have wargear or rules go lock people into combat.

Everyone can lock models into combat. No special rule needed.

 p5freak wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Unless they have fly, because we don't have wargear or rules go lock people into combat.

Everyone can lock models into combat. No special rule needed.

Only if you can bubble wrap said unit and said unit can't fly.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Unless they have fly, because we don't have wargear or rules go lock people into combat.

Everyone can lock models into combat. No special rule needed.

Only if you can bubble wrap said unit and said unit can't fly.

Yes, all you need is 3 models to "bubble wrap".

Bubble wrapping requires a certain level of movement, and larger units are harder and harder to "bubble wrap" unless the opponent screwed up and allowed you to isolate a single model.

 Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:
Bubble wrapping requires a certain level of movement, and larger units are harder and harder to "bubble wrap" unless the opponent screwed up and allowed you to isolate a single model.

And then doesn't just remove said model as a causalty when you dump your attacks into the unit.

Larger vehicles are hard to pin with only three bases as well.

You need four models to pin a perfectly square model, three to pin any other model. You can pin a unit by only moving 1 model within 1" of the target and then using your consolidation move to take a captive when you do 0-1 unsaved wounds. Alternatively, you can charge one unit and take a model captive from a nearby unit. It's pretty tricky to avoid having a single model that can be wrapped unless you set up models in a large circle, I find it easy to wrap things and exceedingly hard to avoid. Even if your opponent creates that circle then it can be chopped into pieces and the survivors can be taken prisoner. If you place your model in square you'll still have room with 25 mm bases to take one of the corner men captive.

 Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:
Bubble wrapping requires a certain level of movement, and larger units are harder and harder to "bubble wrap" unless the opponent screwed up and allowed you to isolate a single model.

And not charging said unit least you end up killing trapped models.

Yowch. Had a tough game last night vs new marines running a leafblower tank castle (x2 Sicarian Punishers, x2 Redemptors, a Deredeo, hellblasters, intercessors)...stayed in the heavy doctrine all game.

Our infantry are so darn squishy....and AP-2 heavy bolters made it painfully obvious. But. I still managed to pull out a win by playing objectives and using doomsday arks at extreme range to pick off tanks. I have 20 warriors, and 2x10 immortals. All dead by the bottom of turn 3.

MVPs....probably my 2x4 scarabs zooming around with Nephrehk to grab objectives all game, and x10 sword and board lychguard anchoring a flank against 10 intercessors and a redemptor, helping me get domination to sorta seal the deal.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Yowch. Had a tough game last night vs new marines running a leafblower tank castle (x2 Sicarian Punishers, x2 Redemptors, a Deredeo, hellblasters, intercessors)...stayed in the heavy doctrine all game.

Our infantry are so darn squishy....and AP-2 heavy bolters made it painfully obvious. But. I still managed to pull out a win by playing objectives and using doomsday arks at extreme range to pick off tanks. I have 20 warriors, and 2x10 immortals. All dead by the bottom of turn 3.

MVPs....probably my 2x4 scarabs zooming around with Nephrehk to grab objectives all game, and x10 sword and board lychguard anchoring a flank against 10 intercessors and a redemptor, helping me get domination to sorta seal the deal.

Although MWBD+Tesla Immortals been a great trick, it feels like its utility isn’t relevant in this meta, and max squad Immortals isn’t the right call anymore?

The problem is, 10x immort squads are our best option for horde clearing and tough objective holders. They are a swiss army knife unit, able to do work against anything from guardsman to knights effectively... if properly supported.

Tesla on sixes doesn't do the trick against anything other than optimal targets reliably. So, we have a tax of one overlord per 2 squads, or 2 per 3 squads, or imotekh + overlord for 4. The tax is the issue, not immortal squad points.

Warriors.. I want them to work in ITC, but I can't make it happen. If they are 9 points, the math changes, and perhaps. However, you have taxes to consider, again.

Warriors don't need overlords. They do need chronoteks or Orikan, one aura per two units. Lords also help quite a bit. However, at s4, warriors are forced into infantry/light tank duty, as anything t8 is beyond them for more than a bit of chip damage. Add a res orb or ghost ark to keep your 2 to 3 blocks of warriors around, and at best, that's a large investment, not a throwaway screen.

Not sure what the fix is: I have heard that I should expect another round of points decreases in CA. I pray for 9 point warriors. Personally, I still see 30 tesla and 2 overlords as the starting point of my ITC lists, and likely will until the next round of point drops.

What are you going to replace them with? TB spam with no Battalions? With 4+ 5++? It might be a good idea for White Scars as well. Could Canoptek lists become relevant? I think not because of the increased number of attacks on SM. I'm really scared by the new SM, but Raven Guard are probably not going to be amazing so that makes me happy.

I'm also wondering if the Gauss Pylon might be a good counter for IH. So something like a Pylon, 18 Tesla TBs, Cloaktek, 3x DDA, 3x Doomscythe. D6 damage might already be a good enough counter for the Serpent Shield Repulsors, but you're doing 29% less damage and then you have to go through the FNP as well. Not to mention actual Serpent Shield spam being the second most popular Craftworld build AFAIK (still far from being the most popular, but I a lot of the Flyer builds do field them).

I tried out a big unit of Mephrit Tesla TBs against Orks the other day, I absolutely destroyed him but I'm not sure how big an impact the Stratagem had, my 6s weren't amazing, it seems like a very swingy tactic. I'd put 4-8 shots into a couple of Orks and I'd get 3-5 hits instead of the expected 6-12. The Mephrit code was useless because he had a KFF to protect his Boyz.

Quick check. Did necrons have any indirect fire weapons? Or if not what were best ways to deal with targets out of LOS? Salamander supplement is making that one rather important consideration or you can have their core infantry literally immune to long range shooting. Potential targets would be likely scouts/infiltrators out of LOS and potentially in cover for +2 to save. Or if opponent ignores mono bonuses cheap IG infantry squads.

tneva82 wrote:
Quick check. Did necrons have any indirect fire weapons? Or if not what were best ways to deal with targets out of LOS? Salamander supplement is making that one rather important consideration or you can have their core infantry literally immune to long range shooting. Potential targets would be likely scouts/infiltrators out of LOS and potentially in cover for +2 to save. Or if opponent ignores mono bonuses cheap IG infantry squads.

Doomscythes and Imotekh.

 vict0988 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Quick check. Did necrons have any indirect fire weapons? Or if not what were best ways to deal with targets out of LOS? Salamander supplement is making that one rather important consideration or you can have their core infantry literally immune to long range shooting. Potential targets would be likely scouts/infiltrators out of LOS and potentially in cover for +2 to save. Or if opponent ignores mono bonuses cheap IG infantry squads.

Doomscythes and Imotekh.

How can doomscythes fire indirectly, without LOS ? Imotekh is the only unit that can hit an enemy unit he cannot see, and its only once per battle.

I did ask for alternative ways if no indirect. Anything to clear enemy units giving protection to character that is in turn making infantry behind immune to shooting

I still dont see how a doomscythe would help in your case. It could fly to somewhere where you can draw LOS, but any (fast) unit can do that, like nephrekh wraith, nephrekh anni barges. ATD could be used for the 3 doomscythes, you could pick a point within 3" of the hidden units. There are two ctan powers which dont require LOS, cosmic fire, and sky of falling stars. Scarabs could self destruct if they can get within 1" of the hidden enemy unit, this works through walls.

Melee won't help you taking a unit out before you want to shoot at different targets with your Immortals or Doomsday Arks. Doomscythes have much more mobility than Tomb Blades and on top of that they have Amalgamated Targeting Data which can be used just outside an L ruin and hit a unit that might be hiding inside. Assuming your ruins have bases it'll also be hell to clear out Intercessors with Tesla unless you have Nebuloscopes you'll be forced to use the Solar Pulse stratagem to push wounds through and to do 10 wounds with TBs you need 12 TBs ignoring cover. C'tan are not a competitive choice, they are okay and Cosmic Fire is their best power IMO, it's just not really relevant to a 3xDDA and TB/Immortals/Destroyers list that I imagine tneva was worrying about when facing Salamanders. If you are playing a C'tan/Canoptek list not being able to shoot some units is irrelevant.

Something I have been noticing with my necrons. Doomsday arks. Lovely vehicle. Plenty of firepower. But I'm having hard time getting to actually fire the high power mode! People are too good at moving out of sight so I end up having to move.

On the other hand it gives me easy range with the side guns so actually those end up causing quite a decent damage in the end! Much to my opponents annoyance. Today the krieg player facing them 2nd time(I played vs him in 1st round) had serious headache with my doomsday arks floating around chasing his tank commanders(and hoping to get LOS to basilisk as well preferably).

Go figure. Are other people just playing on more open boards or how you keep them shooting the big power gun?

Wish the ghost ark was better though. I would love cheap version with just the gaus flayers and float around throwing 20 dice around deflecting lascannon shots to opponents annoyance.