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tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
The other issue we have is that our snipers are awful, so we can't even take out the characters that are giving the buffs.

You need pretty nasty snipers to get by stratagem that allows friendly guys absorb bullets though. Not many armies can do that. Not even vindicator will get him easily.

True, but you can just kill the dudes first. We've got dude killing guns for days. Intercessors drop to Tesla just like everybody else, you just might need two units of immortals to do it instead of one.

tneva82 wrote:
Non-ih primaris vehicles blow up just fine for destroyers. It's ih ones with -1 damage and 5++ that kills destroyers. 7.77 pre fnp is not great

Las fusil eliminators in dev doctrine destroy our destroyers btw. Pun intended Especially in a castle or as salies. -4 flat 3 damage makes short work of them.

But seriously, the impulser has a 4++ and the infantry are 2 wounds.

Averages might be damage 2 from guas canons but reality is your going to roll lots of 1's and 3's for damage and you don't end up killing their infantry very well, if they pop trans-human physiology you can expect to kill ~5 primaris in the open 4 in cover if you don't solar pulse.

Even none IH dreads have the silly half damage strat meaning most of your shots are 1 damage as well. It isn't just iron hands that they struggle against. you basically get one shot with that 300 point unit, then it dies. for that 50 point destroyer they get nearly 3 intersessors with stalker bolt rifles (51pts) Thats also 3 shots at -3 and flat damage 2 out to 36", sure it's strength 4 but a CM and lieutenant make them far more efficient then they have any right being for their cost. Thats a troop as well btw ha ha.

I love destroyers, it's literally my favorite unit in the necron army, but they don't do well verse primaris unfortunately. The book needs a rewrite, but that ain't happening any time soon so best we can hope for are additional point drops. Even that doesn't really fix things, just increases the scale of the game yet again while giving the appearance of help.


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IanVanCheese wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
The other issue we have is that our snipers are awful, so we can't even take out the characters that are giving the buffs.

You need pretty nasty snipers to get by stratagem that allows friendly guys absorb bullets though. Not many armies can do that. Not even vindicator will get him easily.

True, but you can just kill the dudes first. We've got dude killing guns for days. Intercessors drop to Tesla just like everybody else, you just might need two units of immortals to do it instead of one.

Thats a stretch of a statement, they have 2 wounds so they literally drop half as fast verse most troops in the game Tesla lacking any AP means it really struggles to kill marines, especially in cover. I love solar pulse, but your only pulsing one thing so pick your poison. Sure you will kill a few intersessors, but in return your going to lose way more immortals. By the time the immortals get in range they can switch to tactical doctrine, use steady advance and rapid fire. Thats 40 shots with a 30" threat range rerolling all hits and 1's to wound with ap -2 and the unit is the same cost as 10 immortals but has double the wounds and punches 3 times as hard in assault as well.

Then we hit into lack of snipers.

Also as for pylon problem is it works only vs 1 of 3 likely ih type. Leviathan laughs(3.2 wounds pre-fnp) so with 3 dda you don't even overcome turn repair rate. Ven dread/contemptator char spam is covered by character protection. So only repulsors and redemptors are really bothered by pylon and triple dda sight


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As for destroyers vs primaris i'm using destroyers to deal with vehicles. So vs primaris targets would be more like repulsors and the kind. Not basic infantry

Yeah OK, maybe all three units of Immortals.

Still, while they're very good they could be dealt with. My point is that we have basically no way of killing the characters hiding in the backline.

I agree that power creep has brought Destroyers down from their pedestal too. We just need a new book and a complete overhaul.

tneva82 wrote:
Then we hit into lack of snipers.

Also as for pylon problem is it works only vs 1 of 3 likely ih type. Leviathan laughs(3.2 wounds pre-fnp) so with 3 dda you don't even overcome turn repair rate. Ven dread/contemptator char spam is covered by character protection. So only repulsors and redemptors are really bothered by pylon and triple dda sight


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As for destroyers vs primaris i'm using destroyers to deal with vehicles. So vs primaris targets would be more like repulsors and the kind. Not basic infantry

Sure and don't get me wrong, I still think destroyers are good (I only run one full unit) but even verse a respulsor your doing ~14.5 wounds which doesn't kill it and your using a 300 point unit that will disappear the next turn. I generally recommend against trading like for like. Keep in mind BTW that I assume we are not playing IH in all these scenarios because IH are playing a different game at this point.

Basic infantry needs to be addressed though, because telsa just isn't gona do it really. 10 immortals with MWBD kills 3.5 primaris in the open. Issue being they have 30" range guns and we have 24" and move only 5" meaning we need to advance to match their range. If they have the +3" trait it is unlikely we ever get the first bite at the apple. When that unit can become 40 shots on the move at -2 it is a real problem. I am much more scared of the infantry then the vehicles, the infantry also mulches our vehicles.


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IanVanCheese wrote:
Yeah OK, maybe all three units of Immortals.

Still, while they're very good they could be dealt with. My point is that we have basically no way of killing the characters hiding in the backline.

I agree that power creep has brought Destroyers down from their pedestal too. We just need a new book and a complete overhaul.

It's much worse then that, one unit of 17ppm stalker marines will kill all our support characters pretty quickly. Overlords will take some hits, but you can kiss any crytek or lords that are visible goodbye. If you hide they don't care anyway, they shoot 36" with damage 2 -3 bolt guns lol.

Yeah destroyers don't one shot repulsor but 3 dda won't either. You need more and you can't afford to let live and heal 6 wounds. After dda destroyers are your best bet. Fire destroyers, then follow with dda until dead


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 Red Corsair wrote:
Las fusil eliminators in dev doctrine destroy our destroyers btw. Pun intended Especially in a castle or as salies. -4 flat 3 damage makes short work of them.
.

Imperial fist leviathan seems to become nasty destroyer destroyer as well. 20 S7 -2 D3 shots. Boom. Urgh. Seems imperial fist super doctrine is +1D to heavy weapons.

GW just keeps giving eh?

edit: seems luckily only vs vehicles and buildings. Still doomsday arks etc are going to go poof vs if.

barontuman wrote:
Glad to hear that we'll be seeing less knights. They rather ruined the game for me personally. I hate the larger models and would rather play with "miniatures" instead of "toys"

IH are worse than knights.

IanVanCheese wrote:
The other issue we have is that our snipers are awful, so we can't even take out the characters that are giving the buffs.

Just fly right next to a character with a doom scythe and kill him.

A stormhawk interceptor twin heavy bolter, twin assault cannon and icarus stormcannon for 159 points is a fearsome prospect for the usual necron lists that performed recently.
Imperial Fists ones will be especially brutal.

Shaelinith wrote:
A stormhawk interceptor twin heavy bolter, twin assault cannon and icarus stormcannon for 159 points is a fearsome prospect for the usual necron lists that performed recently.
Imperial Fists ones will be especially brutal.

Its worse with IH. It ignores the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, it gets +1 to hit units with FLY. Number of wounds is doubled for the damage table, and it re-rolls hit rolls of 1 for heavy weapons. The stormtalon is pretty much the same, except it gets +1 to hit units which dont have FLY. Which means it hits on 2+, re-rolling 1s.

I played four games with IH, and won all four. IH = OP.

 p5freak wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
The other issue we have is that our snipers are awful, so we can't even take out the characters that are giving the buffs.

Just fly right next to a character with a doom scythe and kill him.

Depends on opponent being careless enough to allow doom scythe to get in suitable position. Also IH has for that case "get out of jail" card. They can turn nearby unit into bodyguard ala lychguard and turn wounds to character into mortal wounds vs that unit instead.

tneva82 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
The other issue we have is that our snipers are awful, so we can't even take out the characters that are giving the buffs.

Just fly right next to a character with a doom scythe and kill him.

Depends on opponent being careless enough to allow doom scythe to get in suitable position. Also IH has for that case "get out of jail" card. They can turn nearby unit into bodyguard ala lychguard and turn wounds to character into mortal wounds vs that unit instead.

I know, i play IH. But this stratagem has to be used at the start of the shooting phase. Once you start shooting, it cant be played.

If you park doom scythe next to his character don't you think opponent will use it rather than risk losing -1dam buble? Assuming he even made mistake of allowing scythe to get there in the first place

tneva82 wrote:
If you park doom scythe next to his character don't you think opponent will use it rather than risk losing -1dam buble? Assuming he even made mistake of allowing scythe to get there in the first place

Doomscythe are not even great characters killers against power armor/invulnerable saves. Sure one Death Ray hit might go through, but you still need to roll high on damage, and you will have probably only one opportunity.

True that. Better hope for him to not trigger stratagem and use mortal wound boom. 3d3 is better odds. With command cp 75% odds of triggering. And if doom scythe isn't parked next to it maybe opponent forgets to trigger stratagem

tneva82 wrote:
True that. Better hope for him to not trigger stratagem and use mortal wound boom. 3d3 is better odds. With command cp 75% odds of triggering. And if doom scythe isn't parked next to it maybe opponent forgets to trigger stratagem

Characters are hit on 5+ with ATD. Its not 75%, its 50% i think.

 p5freak wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
True that. Better hope for him to not trigger stratagem and use mortal wound boom. 3d3 is better odds. With command cp 75% odds of triggering. And if doom scythe isn't parked next to it maybe opponent forgets to trigger stratagem

Characters are hit on 5+ with ATD. Its not 75%, its 50% i think.

Yeah, just a little over at 0.55%
It's not awfully bad and it would do some damage around, but it's not reliable either. I'm not sure we have something better to offer though. With some DDA support and Veiled Destroyers we could even do some damage. If we don't have first turn it's unlikely all Doomscythe will survive ...

Well i would still rank better than 1 scythe shooting alone. And not much other options either. Getting all destroyers into position where character is closest is optimistic at best. Ds is very easy to block to get character be closest

tneva82 wrote:
Well i would still rank better than 1 scythe shooting alone. And not much other options either. Getting all destroyers into position where character is closest is optimistic at best. Ds is very easy to block to get character be closest

I wasn't clear sorry. The idea of trying to snipe the Ironstone with Doomscythes is quite all-in, if i ever pull that move, i will probably double down with everything i can and veil destroyers to try to actually kill a vehicule before it's repaired.
In attrition warfare i don't see us winning, we're outranged, outdamaged and sadly, far less resilient (supposed to be our thing ...) but honestly, outside of very crowded terrain and try to win the scenario, i don't think we stand a chance in extended firefights.

Destroyers have no real use of sniping ironstone. Character protection makes getting destroyers into position to shoot character pretty slim. I'm lazy with screens and even i don't allow that sort of hole. Destroyers are better off hanging back at sides using terrain to minimize return fire.

A new supplement/codex gets released and we re back to bottom tier!

Well good thing is obviously every game won't be vs ih. Bad news is likely they are popular enough facing 1-2 in 5 games won't be that rare.

Good news is weapons good vs ih are bad against necrons so games vs non-ih might be easier

edit: Local tournament had 24 players. 3 of them IH. Took positions 1, 3 and 4. 2nd was ultramarines. Only games for IH that didn't end up in 20-0 win was the 11-9 game the 3rd and 4th shared between each other...

Necrons took 5th having crushed chaos and orks and being vaporized by one IH player.

Was the tomb blades 3+ or 5+ preferred? And if 3+ do you think with all the more AP marines are throwing around 5++ would be coming better option for them?

tneva82 wrote:
Was the tomb blades 3+ or 5+ preferred? And if 3+ do you think with all the more AP marines are throwing around 5++ would be coming better option for them?

3+ is better by a small margin, mostly because it's a couple of pts cheaper, I can find some math I did if you want? It obviously depends on match-up, but 5++ is pretty niche and 3+ is more or less always okay and often great for just 3 pts.

Thing is marines are rocking -2 saves rather easily even for their basic troops with some -3. If it wasnt' for marines I would be going for 3+ with couple 5+ to soak those lascannons but 3+ seems to go poof vs marines too easily.

 vict0988 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Was the tomb blades 3+ or 5+ preferred? And if 3+ do you think with all the more AP marines are throwing around 5++ would be coming better option for them?

3+ is better by a small margin, mostly because it's a couple of pts cheaper, I can find some math I did if you want? It obviously depends on match-up, but 5++ is pretty niche and 3+ is more or less always okay and often great for just 3 pts.

Depending on how many you are a fielding, for larger squads it’s worth running a mix; preferentially tanking certain types of shots on different models (though remember that already wounded models must finish dying before changing the tanking model).

tneva82 wrote:
Thing is marines are rocking -2 saves rather easily even for their basic troops with some -3. If it wasnt' for marines I would be going for 3+ with couple 5+ to soak those lascannons but 3+ seems to go poof vs marines too easily.

Right, just have to remember that the 3+ save is the same as 5++ when facing AP-2, so no real benefit there.
It is only when those AP-3 starts targeting the Tomb Blades does the 5++ help in any way.

Yeah but it's not like -2 is cap. It's more of the base line. It's AP-2 AND worse coming your way. It's the 0 and -1 that have died away so now the 5+ is best case scenario you are looking at. So if 5++ is still pointless would the 3+ itself be any use either or should one be just cheaper?

Armour save as it is has gone way of doodoo in terms of being useful in 8th ed to begin with and marine codex is ramping up the trend.

Stalker boltguns in dev doctrine will steal tomb blades lunch.

OK so dumb list time. Going back to an old flavour of Necrons.

Battalion - Nihilakh
Command Barge: Warscythe, Gauss Cannon
Cryptek: Canoptek Cloak

3 x 5 Immortals

Super Heavy Detachment - Nihilakh
Pylon
Pylon
Tesseract vault

1999 pts

Thoughts?

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah but it's not like -2 is cap. It's more of the base line. It's AP-2 AND worse coming your way. It's the 0 and -1 that have died away so now the 5+ is best case scenario you are looking at. So if 5++ is still pointless would the 3+ itself be any use either or should one be just cheaper?

Armour save as it is has gone way of doodoo in terms of being useful in 8th ed to begin with and marine codex is ramping up the trend.

You know, thinking about it more, with so many things that are AP-1 or better, would it be a good thing to save the points and just kit them out as 4+/5++ (if you are not kitting out for ignore cover)?