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 BBAP wrote:
What explanation is there for a bunch of Sisters suddenly having such rare and powerful armour when currently only Celestine has access to it? Not even the Canoness gets it yet this random bunch of Celestians do? It's possible to create a satisfying lore answer, but I can't see how.

Aspirate cloaks or praesidium protectivas - old 3rd edition stuff (and also used in the RPGs).
The praesidum shields probably suit the celestians better but also steps on the toes of the crusader unit... and frankly the crusaders aren't all that much use as a unit even with the big CC combo of storm shields, power weapons, and rerolls.

The Praesidium Protectiva could work as an explanation I suppose, but it wouldn't make the Celestians any more formidable in CC. The Cloaks were an officer-only thing too (Cloak of St. Aspira, IIRC).

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
Thing is, T3 sets a pretty hard limit on what a model can do in close combat (where damage comes thicker and faster than in the shooting phase) without some hardcore gimmicks to obviate its inherent fragility. All that in mind, what gimmicks could you give a Sororitas CC unit to obviate the suckitude of T3 without turning them into cheesy-ass comic book superheroines?

Point cost.
Or a 2+.
Or a good FnP.
Or just hit very hard.
Or any mixture of those.

 BBAP wrote:
2+ armour save would fix the problem, but it's a gamey solution in the same way as 2 Wounds would be. 2+ is relic armour, or Terminator armour - what explanation is there for a bunch of Sisters suddenly having such rare and powerful armour when currently only Celestine has access to it? Not even the Canoness gets it yet this random bunch of Celestians do? It's possible to create a satisfying lore answer, but I can't see how.

The wealthiest, most influential faction in the stuff, that routinely build absolutely insane vanity project just because? The one that collect tithes from almost every world in the galaxy? The only one that has usually multiple representatives among the High Lords?
How could they possibly gather the influence to get something like artificer armor?

Well, actually I can't think of a single reason why they can't…

The Ecclesiarchy is rich and powerful enough to access artificer armour, I can see Celestians and especially Canonesses being justifiably equipped with it. Although Inquisitors should also get access to it (outside of the multiple named Inquisitor models who do have artificer armour, which makes it even more weird that other Inquisitors don't).

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Point cost
Or a 2+
Or a good FnP.
Or just hit very hard.
Or any mixture of those.

You could give them all of these buffs and they still wouldn't be scary. In my mind a CC unit that's marginally better at fisticuffs than Celestians is not particularly impressive. For my money Genestealers have been the yardstick against which CC units should be measured for the last few editions - if your CC unit isn't scaring away Genestealers, then it's not a CC unit.

The wealthiest, most influential faction in the stuff, that routinely build absolutely insane vanity project just because? The one that collect tithes from almost every world in the galaxy? The only one that has usually multiple representatives among the High Lords?
How could they possibly gather the influence to get something like artificer armor?

Well, actually I can't think of a single reason why they can't…

The Adepta Sororitas aren't the Ministorum. Moreover no matter how rich a faction might be, artificer and relic armour is supposed to be rare as all hell and Terminator armour is essentially an heirloom from a forgotten age. When collecting these kinds of artefacts prestige is what matters rather than wealth; that's why the Astartes have it coming out of their ears, whilst the Sororitas have historically been lucky to have a single suit of 2+ armour per army.

Now suddenly they're all wearing it because some folk think they need to do more fisticuffs. That's C.S. Goto-tier silly.

"If your CC unit isn't scaring away genestealer, then its not a CC unit", thats not how this works.

You can't compare a unit with one of the best of his type, and if it can't compete with it, it is just a useless unit.

Point costs, sinergyes, the context of the faction, all of that matters.

 BBAP wrote:

The Adepta Sororitas aren't the Ministorum. Moreover no matter how rich a faction might be, artificer and relic armour is supposed to be rare as all hell and Terminator armour is essentially an heirloom from a forgotten age. When collecting these kinds of artefacts prestige is what matters rather than wealth; that's why the Astartes have it coming out of their ears, whilst the Sororitas have historically been lucky to have a single suit of 2+ armour per army.

Now suddenly they're all wearing it because some folk think they need to do more fisticuffs. That's C.S. Goto-tier silly.

No, but they are funded by them, and one of their most favoured branches. You don't get bolters and power armour if you are not an influential, well funded faction. The Ministorum does also have enormous influence and prestige to match it's wealth. The real question is how many Sisters are there roughly in the Imperium? It is quite possible the numbers are comparable to Marines, but I suspect there are more Sisters than Marines. Not hugely so though.

Anyway, I think giving Celestians artificer armour is probably a bit too much, but Cannonesses and Palatines should get access to it. Even so, they could have a shield that improves their armour save by 1. That would have the same effect, without being a fluff issue.

 Galas wrote:
"If your CC unit isn't scaring away genestealer, then its not a CC unit", thats not this works.

You can't compare a unit with one of the best of his type, and if it can't compete with it, it is just a useless unit.

Point costs, sinergyes, the context of the faction, all of that matters.

Shut up. Reasonable opinions on models aren't allpwed here. Only maths.

I am drawing a blank on why T3 matters to an assault unit.

Genestealers could be T3 and I am not convinced it would be a dramatic nerf. If it got them a points reduction it would only make the unit better.

T3/3+ is better protection than T4/5++ against S4/AP0. Its the same against S4/AP-1.

A melee unit just needs a reliable way of getting into assault - preferably with better odds than 50/50 on the first turn - and some good damage so it will hurt anything it connects with.

The units which struggle are those which can't easily get into assault, so are wasted points for much of the game, and/or then don't do very much when they get there. So your target just falls back (and this doesn't even cost plenty of units their shooting) and/or you get counter-charged by something nasty.

 BBAP wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Point cost
Or a 2+
Or a good FnP.
Or just hit very hard.
Or any mixture of those.

You could give them all of these buffs and they still wouldn't be scary.

So you mean that a 6 ppm model with a 2+, a 3+++, that has 3 attacks each, WS 2+, weapons that gives +5S, AP-4, D highest of 2d6 wouldn't be good?
I'm sorry I just added all of those bonuses I listed.
Genestealers are scared, titan are scared, even hordes are scared because you can almost match their number of models whilst being much more tanky and hitting harder, and also everyone is crying about how broken OP that unit is. Congrats.

 BBAP wrote:
The Adepta Sororitas aren't the Ministorum.

You are right. They are the ministorum's vanity project. Which makes them… even more likeley to get cool stuff.

 BBAP wrote:
When collecting these kinds of artefacts prestige is what matters rather than wealth; that's why the Astartes have it coming out of their ears, whilst the Sororitas have historically been lucky to have a single suit of 2+ armour per army.

Nope lololol the reason why marines have it our of their ears is because GW loves marines and always want to give them more stuff, no fluff reason involved.
Influence matters more than “prestige” and the Ecclesiarchy has more of it than any SM chapter.
Honestly both the shooty and the melee version of elite Sisters unit should have it.

Isn't the fluff reason they don't have it to do with them trying to overthrow the high lords of terra hence assasins going full war on them and wiping out most of the upper managment leaving it intact but nothing like as much of a single entity so it wasn't a threat. Plus if crawl the fluff rules don't apply master can't hand out artificer armour to primaris, the golden chruch pinups ain't likely to be getting many given they would have to be especially specially made as power armour at ita fullest potential requires the black carapace? Hence most of the artisan power armour is more likely to be in that pattern over the special order human size model.
The only exception I could see would be the SoS as the were around the empiror during the crusade so probably had second dibs after custodes on the special toys.

Ice_can wrote:
would have to be especially specially made as power armour at ita fullest potential requires the black carapace?

We have three known examples of human-sized artificer armour.

The armour of this chap:



This fella:



and finally this man, although he is unusually large and Space Marine-sized:




So human artificer armour definitely does exist, and provides close-enough benefits to Marine versions as to have no difference in game rules. Now, Hector Rex and Torquemada Coteaz are both very powerful Inquisitors who you could expect to have access to this kind of gear. Solomon Lok, on the other hand, is not a particularly impressive Inquisitor in rank or influence, and he is actually betrayed by more powerful Inquisitors. Therefore, the conclusion is that artificer armour is not so restricted as to be only for the most powerful of all humans, and certainly not restricted to Space Marines.

We can however, reasonably assume there are a LOT more SoB than there are Inquisitors in the Imperium, and of the Inquisitors, the majority wear Flak or Carapace armour, and a select few wear Power armour, and so the numbers who were artificer armour must be very small indeed...

Ice_can wrote:
Isn't the fluff reason they don't have it to do with them trying to overthrow the high lords of terra hence assasins going full war on them and wiping out most of the upper managment leaving it intact but nothing like as much of a single entity so it wasn't a threat.

No - the high lord Vandire wiped out most of the upper management and took the dual position of lord and ecclesiarch, and basically tried to take over the Imperium. The whole age of apostasy and events leading up to it are pretty interesting fluff.

The sisters were his personal bodyguard and killed him after their leaders met the Emperor in person were told Vandire was a false prophet. The new ecclesiarch, Sebastian Thor, was the guy who broke up the power of the church and pushed through the reformation of the sisters into the militant order they are now in part as a safeguard against another Vandire.

As for the armour, it was commissioned by Vandire. Likely similar to the Immolator, Rosasius, etc with the church having a constant supply from the mechanicum in return for certain concessions, and quite possibly the same model under the boob-plate and other adornments as the elite of the old frateris templar wore

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
We can however, reasonably assume there are a LOT more SoB than there are Inquisitors in the Imperium, and of the Inquisitors, the majority wear Flak or Carapace armour, and a select few wear Power armour, and so the numbers who were artificer armour must be very small indeed...

We can, but can we assume there are a lot more Canonesses? Also, as per their rules, Inquisitors come with carapace armour default when on the battlefield*. They also have access to Terminator armour in some cases. Anyway, the point is largely that the suits are available to those who have the means, and the Ministorum most certainly has the means. For a start, the fact that every Sister has power armour, despite there likely being more of them than Inquisitors, yet not every Inquisitor does*, surely speaks to the huge resources of the Ministorum?


*I think Inquisitors should have access to mesh/flak armour by default, simply because they should have just about all the Imperial options for equipment, but as it stands, Inquisitors are assumed to at least equip carapace armour before venturing onto a known battlefield in 40k.
**Yes, this is likely down to personal choice in a lot of cases, although power armour is undoubtedly superior to carapace armour on a battlefield.

Just to be clear I wasn't implying that it wouldn't exsist, more that it would be more likely to be quite rare more so than human size conventional power armour. Which is rarer than marine size powerarmour. Which is still rarer than carapace armour which in turn is rarer than flak armour.

One piece of fluff said human size power armour was rare because it's hard to produce and most of the avilable power armour production capacity is given over to Mechanicus tilths which means the forgeworld ship it to someone as part of their faithful service of mars. Who presumably ship it to marines or store it for additional foundings.

Ice_can wrote:
Isn't the fluff reason they don't have it to do with them trying to overthrow the high lords of terra hence assasins going full war on them and wiping out most of the upper managment leaving it intact but nothing like as much of a single entity so it wasn't a threat.

No.
None of this happened.
I mean, it looks like you hard an extremely distorted version of the Age of Apostasy stuff, but got every detail wrong.
The Ecclesiarchy is among the most hierarchical organization of the Imperium.

A.T. wrote:
As for the armour, it was commissioned by Vandire.

Not official fluff.
Fancanon only.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Isn't the fluff reason they don't have it to do with them trying to overthrow the high lords of terra hence assasins going full war on them and wiping out most of the upper managment leaving it intact but nothing like as much of a single entity so it wasn't a threat.

No.
None of this happened.
I mean, it looks like you hard an extremely distorted version of the Age of Apostasy stuff, but got every detail wrong.
The Ecclesiarchy is among the most hierarchical organization of the Imperium.

A.T. wrote:
As for the armour, it was commissioned by Vandire.

Not official fluff.
Fancanon only.

It's not an area of fluff I'm familiar with hence it being a question most of it is just bits and pieces picked up in other books that I was reading that mentioned it but focoused on different factions.

Ice_can wrote:
Just to be clear I wasn't implying that it wouldn't exsist, more that it would be more likely to be quite rare more so than human size conventional power armour. Which is rarer than marine size powerarmour. Which is still rarer than carapace armour which in turn is rarer than flak armour.

One piece of fluff said human size power armour was rare because it's hard to produce and most of the avilable power armour production capacity is given over to Mechanicus tilths which means the forgeworld ship it to someone as part of their faithful service of mars. Who presumably ship it to marines or store it for additional foundings.

The reasoning for human power armour being rare makes sense, but I am not sure if I agree on there being less than Marine power armour, although Marines probably get through a lot of components through attrition with their constant wars against dangerous foes, which is the same requirement as producing lots of new suits.

We know there are approximately a million Astartes, give or take a few thousand eitherway. Compared to the size and toal population of the Imperium, that is peanuts. Now, to assume there are less human power armoured suits means there must be no more than probably 4 or 5 million Battle Sisters (allowing for very generous stockpiles of 3-4 spare suits per active Astartes). Over the holdings of the Ecclesiarchy across the Imperium, this seems like quite a small number. It is not uncommon for a world to have a squad or two of Sisters manning a convent, and the larger worlds generally have contingents, and there are millions of worlds in the Imperium. I think it is likely that human power armour suits are in much greater supply than Marine ones, and exist in greater actual numbers, but in comparison to the teeming masses of humanity, they are rarer. Whereas the majority of Marines have power armour.

This isn't even counting the other suits not in use by the Sisters of Battle, such as the many Techpriest Enginseers supporting Imperial Guard units who have a suit.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Not official fluff.
Fancanon only.

But logical. They didn't have it prior to becoming the Brides of the Emperor and Katherine died wearing a suit (the same armour Celestine wears) which leaves a relatively narrow window.

If a 2+ armor has to be provided, I would prefer Elite Sisters in Artificer boobplate over Terminator armor.

I think Celestians will be a separate kit with much more orange armor and probably meaner looking weapons, even before considering whether the concept itself will be rethought.

Galas wrote:"If your CC unit isn't scaring away genestealer, then its not a CC unit", thats not how this works.

You can't compare a unit with one of the best of his type, and if it can't compete with it, it is just a useless unit.

Point costs, sinergyes, the context of the faction, all of that matters.

If the unit is ass then its synergies and context need to be seriously tight to make the unit worth taking.

The inverse is not true - a capable unit that synergises poorly or doesn't fit the context of the army is still a capable unit.

If I can't compare it to the best unit of its class then what can I compare it to? If it's not standing up to other CC units then it sucks as a CC unit, that's all there is to it.

Tyel wrote:I am drawing a blank on why T3 matters to an assault unit.

T3 means anything S3+ can make you roll lots of saves. I spent a fair chunk of 7th playing Genestealer Cults - they're a T3 5+ army and they worked in assault, but only because they had a huge raft of gimmicks backing them up. IC bubbles, Formations that gave them Shrouding and resurrection shenanigans, Telepathic Summons, etc etc.

Genestealers could be T3 and I am not convinced it would be a dramatic nerf. If it got them a points reduction it would only make the unit better.

It'd be less of an issue in CC now that chargers fight first, because Genestealers can take out a lot of models in one swing, but against anyone that can live to swing back it'd cost you Genestealers. It wouldn't be a significant nerf, but still a nerf.

Of course, it'd also make them more vulnerable to shooting, which leads us into...

A melee unit just needs a reliable way of getting into assault - preferably with better odds than 50/50 on the first turn - and some good damage so it will hurt anything it connects with.

So we need to add jump-packs to the list of stuff the Celestians require to make them work. Or CUlt Ambush, I guess.

The units which struggle are those which can't easily get into assault, so are wasted points for much of the game, and/or then don't do very much when they get there. So your target just falls back (and this doesn't even cost plenty of units their shooting) and/or you get counter-charged by something nasty.

"Counter-charged by something nasty"... A proper CC unit needs to be nasty enough itself that it can move to positions covered in "nasty" and still have a fair shot at walking away victorious. Simply being able to run down standard infantry isn't enough; they need to worry other CC units or they're just not worth taking.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So you mean that a 6 ppm model with a 2+, a 3+++, that has 3 attacks each, WS 2+, weapons that gives +5S, AP-4, D highest of 2d6 wouldn't be good?
I'm sorry I just added all of those bonuses I listed.

Behave yourself. Such a model shouldn't cost 6 points, and if it does it's massively undercosted.

Come back with a unit that's actually worth 6ppm, or cost that model appropriately. Then we'll talk.

Nope lololol the reason why marines have it our of their ears is because GW loves marines and always want to give them more stuff, no fluff reason involved.

There's that too, I suppose.

Influence matters more than “prestige” and the Ecclesiarchy has more of it than any SM chapter.

Amongst the general populace that's likely true - but iot's not the citizens of the Imperium that make artificer armour, is it? It's the Tech priests. Are they going to give 200 suits of artificer armour to a Cardinal just because he asks for it? What's he going to threaten them with? "Giz the armour or I'll set my massively undercosted Celestians on you!"?

So Bloodletters are a bad CC unit? They're T3, and they kick quite a lot of butt.

A.T. wrote:
They didn't have it prior to becoming the Brides of the Emperor and Katherine died wearing a suit (the same armour Celestine wears) which leaves a relatively narrow window.

Lots of reforms happened during that “small window”.

 Manchu wrote:
I think Celestians will be a separate kit with much more orange armor and probably meaner looking weapons, even before considering whether the concept itself will be rethought.

Orange???

 BBAP wrote:
Behave yourself. Such a model shouldn't cost 6 points, and if it does it's massively undercosted.

Come back with a unit that's actually worth 6ppm, or cost that model appropriately. Then we'll talk.

“We can make them work by making them cheap point-wise”
“No we can't”
“Yes we can, imagine if they costed this much!”
“That's cheating, they are undercosted”

Yeah I took an extreme example, that's to make it extremely obvious that you can make it work. In between the totally broken version that I mentioned and the useless version that you envision, there is some balanced version.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:
Come back with a unit that's actually worth 6ppm, or cost that model appropriately. Then we'll talk.

I love how you sincerely believe that the appropriate cost for some model is a cost that makes them useless.

 BBAP wrote:
Amongst the general populace that's likely true - but iot's not the citizens of the Imperium that make artificer armour, is it? It's the Tech priests. Are they going to give 200 suits of artificer armour to a Cardinal just because he asks for it? What's he going to threaten them with? "Giz the armour or I'll set my massively undercosted Celestians on you!"?

Are you freaking kidding me?
"Hey we are marines we just do whatever the hell we want we don't have anything to give you because we don't make things we just destroy them, give use some armor"
versus
"Hey we are the Ecclesiarchy, we have an enormous amount of influence AND riches that we can give you back in exchange, give us some armor"

I mean, for real, if you are a tech priest and want to dedicate 100 years for a single power armor (which is sort of how you make artificer armor), then the Ecclesiarchy give you all the resources you need to do so, plus tons of money for yourself, for those whole 100 years.
Marines? Nah sorry they left in their big spaceship to go to the other side of the galaxy, and they didn't have the resources in the first place.
Oh what's that? Marine can try to threaten the Mechanicus you say? YEAH SURE THAT SOUNDS LIKE A PERFECTLY REASONABLE IDEA, THREATEN THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE YOUR WEAPONS, WHAT COULD GO WRONG, I MEAN BESIDE BEING DECLARED EXCOMUNICATE TRAITORIS?

This is probably straying way off topic,

The biggest problem is GW's fluff department isnt very good at keep all the faction fluff consistent.

Also the mechanicus doesn't have the same motivation as the rest of the imperium.

But also some fluff like one of the spacmarine books talks about techpriests in the fortress monastery forges, this maybe ment to be techmarines but again inconsistenc.

 Galas wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
I assume he's also including my earlier concerns about new vehicle options potentially coming at the expense of existing "boring" options, while studiously ignoring the actual point being made.

Actually I wasnt. And sorry but nothing comes at the expense of anything. If GW wants a faction to have something, that faction will have it, even if they give it other new options. If then dont want, that faction will not have it even without other options. Adeptus Mechanicus would never have had rhinos, etc... Even without the dunecrawler being made.

I understand your points, but your vision is just wishful thinking about how GW should behave, not how they do things.

And about CC in sisters, I dont know how 1 cc unit is enough for a faction that has never shown to be afraid of meele. Internet communities shown a serius lack of imagination at the time of designing new units for factions (myself included). Im glad GW has shown that they know how to add new units to new factions, barring units in factions so bloated like centurions.

Actually GW doesn't have unlimited resources for releasing new SKU's so it's not quarantee you will get A AND B. They have only so many kits they are going to release at one time. Case in point eldar jetbikes that waited for good decade for release slot...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
But why would better armor or invuln be bad?

In 3rd/ 4th (and part of 5th) it was possible to give all Sisters a 3++ save through AoF (easier for smaller units than larger ones IIRC but in theory everyone could get it). Thanks to T3 you were still rolling the same number of saves, hence still failing the same number of saves, thus they weren't any better in combat. Also they were still S3 so not very killy.

2+ armour save would fix the problem, but it's a gamey solution in the same way as 2 Wounds would be. 2+ is relic armour, or Terminator armour - what explanation is there for a bunch of Sisters suddenly having such rare and powerful armour when currently only Celestine has access to it? Not even the Canoness gets it yet this random bunch of Celestians do? It's possible to create a satisfying lore answer, but I can't see how.

Plenty of explanations for 2+. Like that big shield they carry with it's own bespoke rule. After all GW decided every shield in the game can now work differently to other shield so provide some bespoken rules for it. Add to that power weapon or some other CC weapon with bespoken rule of it's own and suitably cheap point cost.

A lot of talk of better protection and power weapons, and the models would probably look pretty good. But with crusaders to look to as an example (they have faith and everything) - would the unit actually be any good, or even serve a role in the same faction as the crusaders?

(on the assumption the ecclesiarchy isn't getting left behind - which, as much as I prefer the power armour, would be a bad thing for the faction going forwards IMO)

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Lots of reforms happened during that “small window”.

True. Occams razor though - either the sisters managed to rapidly push through a mass order of power armour during a phase of enforced demilitarization and suspicion from the admech within living memory of trying to conqueror the imperium ... or the second most powerful man in the Imperium in control of a significant fraction of its wealth and military, its religion, and its government commissioned the armour for his personal bodyguard, potentially from armour his elite guard were already using.

A.T. wrote:
A lot of talk of better protection and power weapons, and the models would probably look pretty good. But with crusaders to look to as an example (they have faith and everything) - would the unit actually be any good, or even serve a role in the same faction as the crusaders?

(on the assumption the ecclesiarchy isn't getting left behind - which, as much as I prefer the power armour, would be a bad thing for the faction going forwards IMO)

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Lots of reforms happened during that “small window”.

True. Occams razor though - either the sisters managed to rapidly push through a mass order of power armour during a phase of enforced demilitarization and suspicion from the admech within living memory of trying to conqueror the imperium ... or the second most powerful man in the Imperium in control of a significant fraction of its wealth and military, its religion, and its government commissioned the armour for his personal bodyguard, potentially from armour his elite guard were already using.

Yeah, I suspect it is a cosmetic change for an existing mark of power armour. I personally feel that the moulded breasts on the torso, for example, are entirely decorative, and are simply placed upon the actual, protective torso plate (and avoids any meaningful bullet trap. Would need a lot of reparing though!). This would basically be a minor aesthetic change to the function of the armour.

A.T. wrote:
Occams razor though - either the sisters managed to rapidly push through a mass order of power armour during a phase of enforced demilitarization and suspicion from the admech within living memory of trying to conqueror the imperium ... or the second most powerful man in the Imperium in control of a significant fraction of its wealth and military, its religion, and its government commissioned the armour for his personal bodyguard, potentially from armour his elite guard were already using.

Well, to be fair, you'd also have to point out that :
a) the disgrace of Vandire meant that changing the uniform of a force strongly associated to him would make total sense
b) that demilitarization phase implied that a LOT of previously used equipment was suddenly not needed by the Ecclesiarchy anymore, so...

I'm not saying your guess is ridiculous, I'm saying it's not 100% obvious and different interpretation could make sense too .

 JNAProductions wrote:
So Bloodletters are a bad CC unit? They're T3, and they kick quite a lot of butt.

Do they really? I was under the impression Bloodletters were the inbred cousins of the Chaos Daemons faction, and had been for like 3 editions. I certainly never gave a gak about scrapping with them when I was playing GSC in 7th, and I don't see any major improvements in 8th either.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
Behave yourself. Such a model shouldn't cost 6 points, and if it does it's massively undercosted.

Come back with a unit that's actually worth 6ppm, or cost that model appropriately. Then we'll talk.

“We can make them work by making them cheap point-wise”
“No we can't”
“Yes we can, imagine if they costed this much!”
“That's cheating, they are undercosted”

You're misrepresenting your argument here. What you want to do is load the Celestians down with a bunch of upgrades and then deliberately undercost them. I mean, that works - but it works because they're undercosted, not because you're a game design genius.

I love how you sincerely believe that the appropriate cost for some model is a cost that makes them useless.

You want them to have a 2+/3++, AP -4 CCWs, all kinds of other gak, and then want to pay 6 points per model for them? Behave yourself.

"Hey we are marines we just do whatever the hell we want we don't have anything to give you because we don't make things we just destroy them, give use some armor"
versus
"Hey we are the Ecclesiarchy, we have an enormous amount of influence AND riches that we can give you back in exchange, give us some armor"

Spess Mehrens have been the Imperium's premier fighting force for 10,000 years at this point. They're not asking anyone for anything, it's already there in the armoury.

Versus

A group that didn't exist prior to the Age of Apostasy and is currently serving as the armed wing of an organisation actively disliked by the new Lord Commander of the Imperium, and whose relations are nil to indifferent with the Tech-Priests. But no, it's fine, the Sisters all have artificer armour now because some dude on Dakka wants to make them have fisticuffs.

Behave yourself.