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Wait this is the same relic guy from last time? Yeah I have my suspicions now.

a really easy way to have lists pre-verified would be to crowdsource it.

When you submit your list, you have to choose two factions and then you are asked to look at two lists blind from those factions and see if there are any glaring faults.

Of course theres bound to be some factions more popular, but for the most part this puts some accountability into the picture. If you submit a list and it flubs twice, the to's can ask you to remake it.

It's also probably inevitable when you meta chase, most players have an army/faction and maybe an second army.
You play an army week in week out you'll learn the rules much more than someone choping and changing army every month or so.
But they should surely be having a second person check their list it seems common sence to me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait this is the same relic guy from last time? Yeah I have my suspicions now.

Yes, it is.

Audustum wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait this is the same relic guy from last time? Yeah I have my suspicions now.

Yes, it is.

wow, in that case I think the punishment should be harsher, like forfeit all previous wins to get to top 16, and forfeit any ITC pts gotten from those games at least.

 Ghaz wrote:
Saw this on the Warhammer 40,000 Facebook page:

So in light of what happened at Adepticon (Andrew Gonyo DQed himself after it was pointed out he was using a Blood Angels relic in a Flesh Tearers List) can we PLEASE get some official rule somewhere on how to deal correctly...

It's like GW didn't announce they are working on a Listbuilding App for Matched Play at Adepticon....

Tyel wrote:
Legal list building seems pretty easy. I am more inclined to think this is an attempt to cheat rather than "woops I didn't know".

Exactly so.

Especially as cheaters always claim a mistake.

 Big Mac wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait this is the same relic guy from last time? Yeah I have my suspicions now.

Yes, it is.

wow, in that case I think the punishment should be harsher, like forfeit all previous wins to get to top 16, and forfeit any ITC pts gotten from those games at least.

The first time it happened the issue was brought forward and he played the remainder of the Tournament down the offending unit.

The second time he DQed himself

I think that's more than fair.. He never argued and admitted the mistake... Mistakes happen.

Alex Fennel ...hero of LVO ... Built his AM list this past October at BFS Tournamnet using the wrong points for his Conscripts.,When he realized his mistake at the end of day one.. He immediately DQed himself.

These mistakes happen..
none of these guys have denied what happened... I can't say the same for others

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Legal list building seems pretty easy. I am more inclined to think this is an attempt to cheat rather than "woops I didn't know".

Exactly so.

Especially as cheaters always claim a mistake.

Sometimes they just aggressively mutter and sigh at you.

I don’t recall going to a major tournament where I didn’t double check my list.

If he had made the list in Battlescribe he would have seen it wasn’t an option.

But I’m not one of those guys that would try to say the list builder is the complete authority. If the list builder doesn’t allow it, then go in and careful reread all passages, and errata. And then if your still sure you should, put in to get the list builder fixed?

Sorry but you are wrong. I tried making a battle scribe list and you can include Seth and the banner, in Blood Angels there is no “chapter” option. So point of fact if he used battle scribe he easily could have made this error.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait this is the same relic guy from last time? Yeah I have my suspicions now.

I legitimately don't know or not if it's the same guy from Warzone Atlanta, which is what I was referring to.

If it is--not okay with this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
Sorry but you are wrong. I tried making a battle scribe list and you can include Seth and the banner, in Blood Angels there is no “chapter” option. So point of fact if he used battle scribe he easily could have made this error.

And that's why you read your codex before writing up a list using BattleScribe.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Sorry but you are wrong. I tried making a battle scribe list and you can include Seth and the banner, in Blood Angels there is no “chapter” option. So point of fact if he used battle scribe he easily could have made this error.

And that's why you read your codex before writing up a list using BattleScribe.

This a million times over. Battlescribe (or any program) is not a replacement for your codex.

 davou wrote:
a really easy way to have lists pre-verified would be to crowdsource it.

When you submit your list, you have to choose two factions and then you are asked to look at two lists blind from those factions and see if there are any glaring faults.

Of course theres bound to be some factions more popular, but for the most part this puts some accountability into the picture. If you submit a list and it flubs twice, the to's can ask you to remake it.

Easy solution: Expect all lists turned in three weeks before the tournament. Remove names, and post each list online with the ability for anyone to flag it for validity issues. There is a week for people to look at any issues they might have and change their list as appropriate. They're locked in at that point. People can't change their lists. At that point, the process repeats, with any 'bad' lists that time then getting disqualified. The people handling the disqualification can be staff or something, reviewing the feedback from other people. They have two weeks to do it, and they don't need to vet the list, they only need to vet the things people claim are disqualifying, which takes about 2-3 minutes per complaint, assuming people leave the kind of meticulous responses like they do here in YMDC.

That might sound harsh, but it's either that or live with the possibility stuff like this happens.

As far as technical complexity goes, it wouldn't be a very difficult platform to build, and I believe several list sharing / comment systems exist currently. Some sort of partnership between the people making these and the TOs for stuff like Adepticon might be beneficial for everyone. I'm picturing something like BCP, but better because in the fantasy in my mind it would actually work right half the time.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait this is the same relic guy from last time? Yeah I have my suspicions now.

I legitimately don't know or not if it's the same guy from Warzone Atlanta, which is what I was referring to.

If it is--not okay with this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
Sorry but you are wrong. I tried making a battle scribe list and you can include Seth and the banner, in Blood Angels there is no “chapter” option. So point of fact if he used battle scribe he easily could have made this error.

And that's why you read your codex before writing up a list using BattleScribe.

Hey - Andrew Gonyo here, just saw this thread. Nope, the Warzone Atlanta issue was a different Andrew (Andrew Whittaker)

Didn't read all the comments, but the long and short of the situation is - had no idea I couldn't access the relics and made the (very wrong) assumption it worked like a ravenguard model taking space marine relics/strats, ie, the relic would just say which were just for one type or another. The judges gave me approval to play after checking my list that morning when I got there, and at that time I brought to their attention (as someone had messaged me in the AM hours to inform me of my error) and we chatted about it. While it wasn't required to list relics or warlords at Adepticon (you could change them every game) and as such they felt it wasn't *technically* an illegal list, we both felt it was still something pretty egregious since I'd essentially cheated, whether I realized it or not, for four straight games. I offered to drop, and they agreed that was the best option. We were getting a late start as is and most players had begun their games, so replacing me would require a re-pairing of the whole top 16. Steve (my rnd 1 opponent) still wanted to get a game, so him and I played and had a good time regardless, with him winning (it was a forfeit regardless of the outcome of the game obviously).

I apologized to my rnd 1 opponents I could find, as I felt terrible for playing it wrong, and contacted BCP to remove my score for the event. Definitely a sucky situation that was entirely my fault - live and learn, I'll just post up my lists in advance on the internet for future events I think to ensure I don't miss anything again. Apologies to anyone else impacted by my error that I didn't get a chance to talk to over the weekend.

Target wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait this is the same relic guy from last time? Yeah I have my suspicions now.

I legitimately don't know or not if it's the same guy from Warzone Atlanta, which is what I was referring to.

If it is--not okay with this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
Sorry but you are wrong. I tried making a battle scribe list and you can include Seth and the banner, in Blood Angels there is no “chapter” option. So point of fact if he used battle scribe he easily could have made this error.

And that's why you read your codex before writing up a list using BattleScribe.

Hey - Andrew Gonyo here, just saw this thread. Nope, the Warzone Atlanta issue was a different Andrew (Andrew Whittaker)

Didn't read all the comments, but the long and short of the situation is - had no idea I couldn't access the relics and made the (very wrong) assumption it worked like a ravenguard model taking space marine relics/strats, ie, the relic would just say which were just for one type or another. The judges gave me approval to play after checking my list that morning when I got there, and at that time I brought to their attention (as someone had messaged me in the AM hours to inform me of my error) and we chatted about it. While it wasn't required to list relics or warlords at Adepticon (you could change them every game) and as such they felt it wasn't *technically* an illegal list, we both felt it was still something pretty egregious since I'd essentially cheated, whether I realized it or not, for four straight games. I offered to drop, and they agreed that was the best option. We were getting a late start as is and most players had begun their games, so replacing me would require a re-pairing of the whole top 16. Steve (my rnd 1 opponent) still wanted to get a game, so him and I played and had a good time regardless, with him winning (it was a forfeit regardless of the outcome of the game obviously).

I apologized to my rnd 1 opponents I could find, as I felt terrible for playing it wrong, and contacted BCP to remove my score for the event. Definitely a sucky situation that was entirely my fault - live and learn, I'll just post up my lists in advance on the internet for future events I think to ensure I don't miss anything again. Apologies to anyone else impacted by my error that I didn't get a chance to talk to over the weekend.

Bravo and well played. Sucks that it happened to you, but like you said: live and learn. I do appreciate the steps you took to try to rectify the situation.

Target wrote:

Hey - Andrew Gonyo here, just saw this thread. Nope, the Warzone Atlanta issue was a different Andrew (Andrew Whittaker)

Didn't read all the comments, but the long and short of the situation is - had no idea I couldn't access the relics and made the (very wrong) assumption it worked like a ravenguard model taking space marine relics/strats, ie, the relic would just say which were just for one type or another. The judges gave me approval to play after checking my list that morning when I got there, and at that time I brought to their attention (as someone had messaged me in the AM hours to inform me of my error) and we chatted about it. While it wasn't required to list relics or warlords at Adepticon (you could change them every game) and as such they felt it wasn't *technically* an illegal list, we both felt it was still something pretty egregious since I'd essentially cheated, whether I realized it or not, for four straight games. I offered to drop, and they agreed that was the best option. We were getting a late start as is and most players had begun their games, so replacing me would require a re-pairing of the whole top 16. Steve (my rnd 1 opponent) still wanted to get a game, so him and I played and had a good time regardless, with him winning (it was a forfeit regardless of the outcome of the game obviously).

I apologized to my rnd 1 opponents I could find, as I felt terrible for playing it wrong, and contacted BCP to remove my score for the event. Definitely a sucky situation that was entirely my fault - live and learn, I'll just post up my lists in advance on the internet for future events I think to ensure I don't miss anything again. Apologies to anyone else impacted by my error that I didn't get a chance to talk to over the weekend.

Well hopefully you've learned to read your Codex at least. I'm sorry that you got disqualified for a legitimate mistake but really, this kind of nonsense is unacceptable in any level of competitive play.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Target wrote:

Hey - Andrew Gonyo here, just saw this thread. Nope, the Warzone Atlanta issue was a different Andrew (Andrew Whittaker)

Didn't read all the comments, but the long and short of the situation is - had no idea I couldn't access the relics and made the (very wrong) assumption it worked like a ravenguard model taking space marine relics/strats, ie, the relic would just say which were just for one type or another. The judges gave me approval to play after checking my list that morning when I got there, and at that time I brought to their attention (as someone had messaged me in the AM hours to inform me of my error) and we chatted about it. While it wasn't required to list relics or warlords at Adepticon (you could change them every game) and as such they felt it wasn't *technically* an illegal list, we both felt it was still something pretty egregious since I'd essentially cheated, whether I realized it or not, for four straight games. I offered to drop, and they agreed that was the best option. We were getting a late start as is and most players had begun their games, so replacing me would require a re-pairing of the whole top 16. Steve (my rnd 1 opponent) still wanted to get a game, so him and I played and had a good time regardless, with him winning (it was a forfeit regardless of the outcome of the game obviously).

I apologized to my rnd 1 opponents I could find, as I felt terrible for playing it wrong, and contacted BCP to remove my score for the event. Definitely a sucky situation that was entirely my fault - live and learn, I'll just post up my lists in advance on the internet for future events I think to ensure I don't miss anything again. Apologies to anyone else impacted by my error that I didn't get a chance to talk to over the weekend.

Well hopefully you've learned to read your Codex at least. I'm sorry that you got disqualified for a legitimate mistake but really, this kind of nonsense is unacceptable in any level of competitive play.

I have to agree. I mean... You don't just buy a new Codex and "Assume" what the rules are in it.

How did you decide how to write the list and what to take if you didn't even read the book?

Not looking for any sympathy on it, trust me - no one feels worse about it than me. I couldn't care less about winning one GT, I've been in the hobby long enough that good games and reputation are more important, which is why I offered to dq myself, as nothing good come possibly come from me continuing on, and I flat out didn't deserve to.

Additionally, I think we're going a tad far to assume I didn't read the book - I missed a line in the relics section, yes, but I have opened the thing once or twice :-p

Target wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait this is the same relic guy from last time? Yeah I have my suspicions now.

I legitimately don't know or not if it's the same guy from Warzone Atlanta, which is what I was referring to.

If it is--not okay with this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
Sorry but you are wrong. I tried making a battle scribe list and you can include Seth and the banner, in Blood Angels there is no “chapter” option. So point of fact if he used battle scribe he easily could have made this error.

And that's why you read your codex before writing up a list using BattleScribe.

Hey - Andrew Gonyo here, just saw this thread. Nope, the Warzone Atlanta issue was a different Andrew (Andrew Whittaker)

Didn't read all the comments, but the long and short of the situation is - had no idea I couldn't access the relics and made the (very wrong) assumption it worked like a ravenguard model taking space marine relics/strats, ie, the relic would just say which were just for one type or another. The judges gave me approval to play after checking my list that morning when I got there, and at that time I brought to their attention (as someone had messaged me in the AM hours to inform me of my error) and we chatted about it. While it wasn't required to list relics or warlords at Adepticon (you could change them every game) and as such they felt it wasn't *technically* an illegal list, we both felt it was still something pretty egregious since I'd essentially cheated, whether I realized it or not, for four straight games. I offered to drop, and they agreed that was the best option. We were getting a late start as is and most players had begun their games, so replacing me would require a re-pairing of the whole top 16. Steve (my rnd 1 opponent) still wanted to get a game, so him and I played and had a good time regardless, with him winning (it was a forfeit regardless of the outcome of the game obviously).

I apologized to my rnd 1 opponents I could find, as I felt terrible for playing it wrong, and contacted BCP to remove my score for the event. Definitely a sucky situation that was entirely my fault - live and learn, I'll just post up my lists in advance on the internet for future events I think to ensure I don't miss anything again. Apologies to anyone else impacted by my error that I didn't get a chance to talk to over the weekend.

One would think you would read your armies more carefully after the mistake at Nova Open.
Obviously not, maybe now you will?
Or maybe we'll have a 3e incident before long.

Target wrote:
Not looking for any sympathy on it, trust me - no one feels worse about it than me. I couldn't care less about winning one GT, I've been in the hobby long enough that good games and reputation are more important, which is why I offered to dq myself, as nothing good come possibly come from me continuing on, and I flat out didn't deserve to.

Additionally, I think we're going a tad far to assume I didn't read the book - I missed a line in the relics section, yes, but I have opened the thing once or twice :-p

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't own the Blood Angels book, but isn't it Gabriel Seth's rules that would be necessary to know not the Relics section?

EDIT: Delete, misread.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Target wrote:
Not looking for any sympathy on it, trust me - no one feels worse about it than me. I couldn't care less about winning one GT, I've been in the hobby long enough that good games and reputation are more important, which is why I offered to dq myself, as nothing good come possibly come from me continuing on, and I flat out didn't deserve to.

Additionally, I think we're going a tad far to assume I didn't read the book - I missed a line in the relics section, yes, but I have opened the thing once or twice :-p

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't own the Blood Angels book, but isn't it Gabriel Seth's rules that would be necessary to know not the Relics section?

No its the relic rules you'd need to know. Gabriel Seth just has a set <Flesh Tearers> tag but he specifically makes no mention of anything about relics. The pertinent line is in the relics rules section.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Target wrote:
Not looking for any sympathy on it, trust me - no one feels worse about it than me. I couldn't care less about winning one GT, I've been in the hobby long enough that good games and reputation are more important, which is why I offered to dq myself, as nothing good come possibly come from me continuing on, and I flat out didn't deserve to.

Additionally, I think we're going a tad far to assume I didn't read the book - I missed a line in the relics section, yes, but I have opened the thing once or twice :-p

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't own the Blood Angels book, but isn't it Gabriel Seth's rules that would be necessary to know not the Relics section?

Not really, Seth doesn't state that. My (wrong) assumption was flesh tearers are just a type of blood angel, so since I had a detachment entirely composed of them I'd unlock relics and stratagems like any other book. However if I'd of read the headers of the relic and stratagems pages closer, there is a line that says "the stratagems listed here, with the exception of the armory of baal, can also be used by any of the blood angels successor chapters"

And I was using the relic stratagem/relics and was a successor chapter. Essentially successor chapters get everything *except* relics other than the archangels shard

Even then, successor chapters can just take everything they want anyway and just say they're using the <Blood Angels> keyword with a different colour scheme, but in the case of Seth that obviously doesn't work since he's got <Flesh Tearers>.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Even then, successor chapters can just take everything they want anyway and just say they're using the <Blood Angels> keyword with a different colour scheme, but in the case of Seth that obviously doesn't work since he's got <Flesh Tearers>.

Which is honestly pretty dumb the way they choose to do it.

I think even the SM codex states successor chapters don’t have access to certain chapter specific items.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait this is the same relic guy from last time? Yeah I have my suspicions now.

I legitimately don't know or not if it's the same guy from Warzone Atlanta, which is what I was referring to.

If it is--not okay with this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
Sorry but you are wrong. I tried making a battle scribe list and you can include Seth and the banner, in Blood Angels there is no “chapter” option. So point of fact if he used battle scribe he easily could have made this error.

And that's why you read your codex before writing up a list using BattleScribe.

It was the NOVA guy I believe, not Atlanta.

The guy at Warzone just got a wrist slap.

The lack of consistency across codexes is kind of wonky.

I played a game recently with someone mixing various kinds of chaos. After a point i just stopped asking questions and let him do whatever he wanted whether it was legal or not, I just didn't have the knowledge of all the tiny lines in that book to question it, and asking to see a codex eats into round timers.