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It saddens me we might be in a state in the hobby where everyone just netlists, without really understanding the list themselves. They take lists to events they havn't thought of, with an understanding of the rules for that list they picked up watching youtube or the forums, and might misplay things or take wrong units or illegal lists because they assumed whoever they copied it off was doing it right.
It really wouldn't feel right to me to "win" an event with a list you made zero effort to write yourself. How much of that win is really yours, given how important we all agree list writing is to 40k?
I can mostly guarantee you that people don't win with a list they don't understand and just picked from the internet. They will have played their list locally against the toughest crap they can find several times before heading to a tournament.
And every single one of those toughest crap games with serious comparative players failed to spot the list was illegal not once, but twice? And that this person isn't the first time this has happened at a major event?
Because, like, if these lists have totally been playtested this much against such serious people, how do list errors like this keep popping up? Because it's hardly like this one guy is the glaring exception to 40k's spotless record of lists at major events, is it?
Real question? What's your aim? What's the goal here? To prove that tournaments are bad? That top level players are bad? I see this kind of stuff posted and I'm curious as to what you hope accomplish by making this statement?
To provoke conversation and thought about how netlisting is unhealthy for the hobby, to the extent that it's used by the "Pro Players" And _why_ it's used by the Pro-players, and what can be done to generate a better hobby?
The good news is none of that language is present. The language regarding successor chapters and their relics is the third sentence down in the relic section.
I'll make sure I check the wording on Saturday if I pop over to my local shop.
Real question? What's your aim? What's the goal here? To prove that tournaments are bad? That top level players are bad? I see this kind of stuff posted and I'm curious as to what you hope accomplish by making this statement?
I can't speak for him, but frankly for me? It's to "prove" that matched play is a joke and that the trend of netlists based off of tournament lists is not just silly it can be downright harmful to the game. I've seen at least one or two people locally running the Primaris Psyker with Relic of Lost Cadia garbage and have called them out on it accordingly, not a single one actually bothered to read the entries. They just copy/paste and call it a day.
And every single one of those toughest crap games with serious comparative players failed to spot the list was illegal not once, but twice? And that this person isn't the first time this has happened at a major event?
If none of them were against BA players, then yeah. Probably. As has been said already, those restrictions only exist in the DA/BA books. And the DA book doesn't even have any reason to be a successor chapter over "Dark Angels". How would anyone who hasn't read Blood Angels know?
The good news is none of that language is present. The language regarding successor chapters and their relics is the third sentence down in the relic section.
I'll make sure I check the wording on Saturday if I pop over to my local shop.
Real question? What's your aim? What's the goal here? To prove that tournaments are bad? That top level players are bad? I see this kind of stuff posted and I'm curious as to what you hope accomplish by making this statement?
I can't speak for him, but frankly for me? It's to "prove" that matched play is a joke and that the trend of netlists based off of tournament lists is not just silly it can be downright harmful to the game. I've seen at least one or two people locally running the Primaris Psyker with Relic of Lost Cadia garbage and have called them out on it accordingly, not a single one actually bothered to read the entries. They just copy/paste and call it a day.
The good news is none of that language is present. The language regarding successor chapters and their relics is the third sentence down in the relic section.
I'll make sure I check the wording on Saturday if I pop over to my local shop.
Real question? What's your aim? What's the goal here? To prove that tournaments are bad? That top level players are bad? I see this kind of stuff posted and I'm curious as to what you hope accomplish by making this statement?
I can't speak for him, but frankly for me? It's to "prove" that matched play is a joke and that the trend of netlists based off of tournament lists is not just silly it can be downright harmful to the game. I've seen at least one or two people locally running the Primaris Psyker with Relic of Lost Cadia garbage and have called them out on it accordingly, not a single one actually bothered to read the entries. They just copy/paste and call it a day.
There is no end result there - effectively you've stated your intent is to denigrate a group of players. Or do you think by posting about it on Dakka you're going to meaningfully change what is happening? I fail to understand what possible positive thing can occur from statements of this nature.
And every single one of those toughest crap games with serious comparative players failed to spot the list was illegal not once, but twice? And that this person isn't the first time this has happened at a major event?
If none of them were against BA players, then yeah. Probably. As has been said already, those restrictions only exist in the DA/BA books. And the DA book doesn't even have any reason to be a successor chapter over "Dark Angels". How would anyone who hasn't read Blood Angels know?
I dunno, about anyone else, like, but when I play competatively the first thing to come to my mind is "Know Thine Enemy."
You'd seriously prep for Adeptacon against people who'd never even read your book? You'd play against competative tourny lists and never read their book?
How are you going to know what your opponent might do? How their units might work? What their stratagems are? Don't we have a whole thread dedicated to the fact It is now your responsibility to catch your opponent cheating at an event, the judge will not intervene. how can you possibly do this if you've not made the slightest effort to read and memorise their rules?
The good news is none of that language is present. The language regarding successor chapters and their relics is the third sentence down in the relic section.
I'll make sure I check the wording on Saturday if I pop over to my local shop.
Real question? What's your aim? What's the goal here? To prove that tournaments are bad? That top level players are bad? I see this kind of stuff posted and I'm curious as to what you hope accomplish by making this statement?
I can't speak for him, but frankly for me? It's to "prove" that matched play is a joke and that the trend of netlists based off of tournament lists is not just silly it can be downright harmful to the game. I've seen at least one or two people locally running the Primaris Psyker with Relic of Lost Cadia garbage and have called them out on it accordingly, not a single one actually bothered to read the entries. They just copy/paste and call it a day.
There is no end result there - effectively you've stated your intent is to denigrate a group of players. Or do you think by posting about it on Dakka you're going to meaningfully change what is happening? I fail to understand what possible positive thing can occur from statements of this nature.
Ehhh...I stated that my intent is to denigrate a system of play, not the players themselves.
The possible positive thing that can occur from statements of this nature, however, is that people actually start reading their damn army books before just copy/pasting army lists.
And every single one of those toughest crap games with serious comparative players failed to spot the list was illegal not once, but twice? And that this person isn't the first time this has happened at a major event?
If none of them were against BA players, then yeah. Probably. As has been said already, those restrictions only exist in the DA/BA books. And the DA book doesn't even have any reason to be a successor chapter over "Dark Angels". How would anyone who hasn't read Blood Angels know?
I kinda feel like this is a catch 22. While sure, people who haven't read Blood Angels likely wouldn't know...I'd imagine that the more competitive players who metachase at least have torrents/PDFs of the books to peruse?
It just boggles my mind that we can have people argue that: a) Competitive players are more likely to metachase than noncompetitive players. and b) Competitive players can't be expected to at least having a passing familiarity with the books out there.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/29 20:29:46
And every single one of those toughest crap games with serious comparative players failed to spot the list was illegal not once, but twice? And that this person isn't the first time this has happened at a major event?
If none of them were against BA players, then yeah. Probably. As has been said already, those restrictions only exist in the DA/BA books. And the DA book doesn't even have any reason to be a successor chapter over "Dark Angels". How would anyone who hasn't read Blood Angels know?
I dunno, about anyone else, like, but when I play competatively the first thing to come to my mind is "Know Thine Enemy."
You'd seriously prep for Adeptacon against people who'd never even read your book? You'd play against competative tourny lists and never read their book?
How are you going to know what your opponent might do? How their units might work? What their stratagems are? Don't we have a whole thread dedicated to the fact It is now your responsibility to catch your opponent cheating at an event, the judge will not intervene. how can you possibly do this if you've not made the slightest effort to read and memorise their rules?
So you mean to tell me you know every stratagem in every competitive book? Come on man. I have a really strong memory recall and I know many of the major strats but I don't commit to memory every nuance of every book I could play against. It just isn't possible. If you told me a Leman Russ did something that seemed unreasonable I'd ask to see the rules.
It saddens me we might be in a state in the hobby where everyone just netlists, without really understanding the list themselves. They take lists to events they havn't thought of, with an understanding of the rules for that list they picked up watching youtube or the forums, and might misplay things or take wrong units or illegal lists because they assumed whoever they copied it off was doing it right.
It really wouldn't feel right to me to "win" an event with a list you made zero effort to write yourself. How much of that win is really yours, given how important we all agree list writing is to 40k?
I can mostly guarantee you that people don't win with a list they don't understand and just picked from the internet. They will have played their list locally against the toughest crap they can find several times before heading to a tournament.
And every single one of those toughest crap games with serious comparative players failed to spot the list was illegal not once, but twice? And that this person isn't the first time this has happened at a major event?
Because, like, if these lists have totally been playtested this much against such serious people, how do list errors like this keep popping up? Because it's hardly like this one guy is the glaring exception to 40k's spotless record of lists at major events, is it?
Real question? What's your aim? What's the goal here? To prove that tournaments are bad? That top level players are bad? I see this kind of stuff posted and I'm curious as to what you hope accomplish by making this statement?
To provoke conversation and thought about how netlisting is unhealthy for the hobby, to the extent that it's used by the "Pro Players" And _why_ it's used by the Pro-players, and what can be done to generate a better hobby?
I'm surprised people are still making a big deal about this. He DQed himself and attempted to apologize to all his previous opponents.I understand how easy it is to make a mistake like this (especially when meta chasing in an edition that's been updated at a pace we have never seen). As long as he learns from his mistake and takes precautions to prevent it in the future I don't see a big deal. The issue with practice games is your opponents typically play different codexes as you. I helped my friend prep for LVO but id have no clue if one unit in his list had the wrong keyword because I don't play DG. I like the idea of having to download your list to something like Dakka before the tournament so the players can see what players are running and point out mistakes like this.
And every single one of those toughest crap games with serious comparative players failed to spot the list was illegal not once, but twice? And that this person isn't the first time this has happened at a major event?
If none of them were against BA players, then yeah. Probably. As has been said already, those restrictions only exist in the DA/BA books. And the DA book doesn't even have any reason to be a successor chapter over "Dark Angels". How would anyone who hasn't read Blood Angels know?
I dunno, about anyone else, like, but when I play competatively the first thing to come to my mind is "Know Thine Enemy."
You'd seriously prep for Adeptacon against people who'd never even read your book? You'd play against competative tourny lists and never read their book?
How are you going to know what your opponent might do? How their units might work? What their stratagems are? Don't we have a whole thread dedicated to the fact It is now your responsibility to catch your opponent cheating at an event, the judge will not intervene. how can you possibly do this if you've not made the slightest effort to read and memorise their rules?
So you mean to tell me you know every stratagem in every competitive book? Come on man. I have a really strong memory recall and I know many of the major strats but I don't commit to memory every nuance of every book I could play against. It just isn't possible. If you told me a Leman Russ did something that seemed unreasonable I'd ask to see the rules.
I like to think I do, yes. It's like... 2 A4 pages. Across like, a dozen books, give or take.
We're not talking university exam level studies here.
I don't expect every single player to put this much effort into the hobby, but we're specifically discussing The Best Players In The World. If they don't know, then... Who does?
I'm surprised people are still making a big deal about this. He DQed himself and attempted to apologize to all his previous opponents.I understand how easy it is to make a mistake like this (especially when meta chasing in an edition that's been updated at a pace we have never seen). As long as he learns from his mistake and takes precautions to prevent it in the future I don't see a big deal. The issue with practice games is your opponents typically play different codexes as you. I helped my friend prep for LVO but id have no clue if one unit in his list had the wrong keyword because I don't play DG. I like the idea of having to download your list to something like Dakka before the tournament so the players can see what players are running and point out mistakes like this.
I can't confirm or deny this, but someone has mentioned that this particular individual had also ran a list at Nova where he was giving himself the bonus Command Points from Creed while not having Creed as his Warlord.
IF this is true, then it's not just one mistake at this point--it's a case of this individual just metachasing and not reading the damn rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 20:31:59
And every single one of those toughest crap games with serious comparative players failed to spot the list was illegal not once, but twice? And that this person isn't the first time this has happened at a major event?
If none of them were against BA players, then yeah. Probably. As has been said already, those restrictions only exist in the DA/BA books. And the DA book doesn't even have any reason to be a successor chapter over "Dark Angels". How would anyone who hasn't read Blood Angels know?
I dunno, about anyone else, like, but when I play competatively the first thing to come to my mind is "Know Thine Enemy."
You'd seriously prep for Adeptacon against people who'd never even read your book? You'd play against competative tourny lists and never read their book?
How are you going to know what your opponent might do? How their units might work? What their stratagems are? Don't we have a whole thread dedicated to the fact It is now your responsibility to catch your opponent cheating at an event, the judge will not intervene. how can you possibly do this if you've not made the slightest effort to read and memorise their rules?
Your post kinda proves how this mistake is made. His opponent said "hey whats that relic do" He says "relic x does y".... they go on playing. The player is now reinforced that relic x does y even though he misread the entry by cause he's the only player of "z" faction in his group. He might even be avoiding faction "z" because he doesn't want his list to be stolen.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: I like to think I do, yes. It's like... 2 A4 pages. Across like, a dozen books, give or take.
We're not talking university exam level studies here.
I don't expect every single player to put this much effort into the hobby, but we're specifically discussing The Best Players In The World. If they don't know, then... Who does?
So you mean to tell me you have committed to memory all roughly 170 stratagems that an army might use? Color me dubious.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 20:35:18
I can't speak for him, but frankly for me? It's to "prove" that matched play is a joke
You'll only damage yourself while the rest of us push forward.
and that the trend of netlists based off of tournament lists is not just silly it can be downright harmful to the game.
Which is why we have FAQs and why this one was delayed.
I've seen at least one or two people locally running the Primaris Psyker with Relic of Lost Cadia garbage and have called them out on it accordingly, not a single one actually bothered to read the entries. They just copy/paste and call it a day.
Your post kinda proves how this mistake is made. His opponent said "hey whats that relic do" He says "relic x does y".... they go on playing. The player is now reinforced that relic x does y even though he misread the entry by cause he's the only player of "z" faction in his group. He might even be avoiding faction "z" because he doesn't want his list to be stolen.
This has happened quite a few times locally. Some players reads something the wrong way, states it with conviction during a game, and the other players goes on to their next game with the same conviction until someone steps in and says, "I'm not sure that's correct - show me".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 20:37:01
AdmiralHalsey wrote: I like to think I do, yes. It's like... 2 A4 pages. Across like, a dozen books, give or take.
We're not talking university exam level studies here.
I don't expect every single player to put this much effort into the hobby, but we're specifically discussing The Best Players In The World. If they don't know, then... Who does?
So you mean to tell me you have committed to memory all roughly 170 stratagems that an army might use? Color me dubious.
That's significantly less than someone has to learn at High School.
Are you suggesting you find it hard to believe that I'm capable of learning to the extent of a high school student, or...?
I'm pretty good with Magic cards too, and there are significantly more than 170 of those per set.
I can't speak for him, but frankly for me? It's to "prove" that matched play is a joke
You'll only damage yourself while the rest of us push forward.
Guard changes & the Tau Commander 'nerf' beg to differ.
and that the trend of netlists based off of tournament lists is not just silly it can be downright harmful to the game.
Which is why we have FAQs and why this one was delayed.
FAQs don't do diddly when they're trying to patch up holes in a sunken ship.
I've seen at least one or two people locally running the Primaris Psyker with Relic of Lost Cadia garbage and have called them out on it accordingly, not a single one actually bothered to read the entries. They just copy/paste and call it a day.
That people netlist =\= matched play is a joke
"MATCHED PLAY IS THE MOST BALANCED WAY TO PLAY! OPTIMIZE ALL THE THINGS! NETLISTS!"
*play lists that are illegal because you netlisted and didn't read the rules*
It absolutely, 100% does equate to matched play being a damned joke. It's the meta now and with how GW keeps plugging the tournaments on the Community page, these kinds of trash lists where they're not legal keep getting exposure.
Your post kinda proves how this mistake is made. His opponent said "hey whats that relic do" He says "relic x does y".... they go on playing. The player is now reinforced that relic x does y even though he misread the entry by cause he's the only player of "z" faction in his group. He might even be avoiding faction "z" because he doesn't want his list to be stolen.
This has happened quite a few times locally. Some players reads something the wrong way, states it with conviction during a game, and the other players goes on to their next game with the same conviction until someone steps in and says, "I'm not sure that's correct - show me".
Which was actually the point that Halsey seemed to have been making--that competitive players are, based upon the idea of "they're the metachasers!" going to be the ones asking "show me how that works".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/29 20:41:54
I dunno, about anyone else, like, but when I play competatively the first thing to come to my mind is "Know Thine Enemy."
You'd seriously prep for Adeptacon against people who'd never even read your book? You'd play against competative tourny lists and never read their book?
I'd prep against whoever I had available to prep against. I've played at Adepticon having never read some codexes. I think there were four years we played. Only time it ever bit us in the ass was on one table of one game in one year when someone threw Demons with three CSM players. And we won that one.
How are you going to know what your opponent might do? How their units might work? What their stratagems are? Don't we have a whole thread dedicated to the fact It is now your responsibility to catch your opponent cheating at an event, the judge will not intervene. how can you possibly do this if you've not made the slightest effort to read and memorise their rules?
There might be a little bit of a gap between "missing third sentence of the introductory section paragraph no one reads because they're identical except for two exceptions, apparently" and "not made the slightest effort to read and memorise their rules". You might have infinite time and an eidetic memory, but I've got a job and perpetual distractions.
And, ya know, tournaments are full of sleep deprived drunk dudes who haven't showered in a day or two. Stuff's going to slip through the cracks everywhere. You can either set your world view to take that into account with the goal of trying to do better, or you can be perpetually angry and shocked when it happens.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: I like to think I do, yes. It's like... 2 A4 pages. Across like, a dozen books, give or take.
We're not talking university exam level studies here.
I don't expect every single player to put this much effort into the hobby, but we're specifically discussing The Best Players In The World. If they don't know, then... Who does?
So you mean to tell me you have committed to memory all roughly 170 stratagems that an army might use? Color me dubious.
That's significantly less than someone has to learn at High School.
Are you suggesting you find it hard to believe that I'm capable of learning to the extent of a high school student, or...?
I'm pretty good with Magic cards too, and there are significantly more than 170 of those per set.
Magic cards have far less variance in language and bearing that stratagems due (thanks to a more coherent core rules block they plug in to). Also, I'm not asking you know generally what they do, I'm asking if you know the exact wording for each.
I can't speak for him, but frankly for me? It's to "prove" that matched play is a joke
You'll only damage yourself while the rest of us push forward.
Guard changes & the Tau Commander 'nerf' beg to differ.
and that the trend of netlists based off of tournament lists is not just silly it can be downright harmful to the game.
Which is why we have FAQs and why this one was delayed.
FAQs don't do diddly when they're trying to patch up holes in a sunken ship.
I've seen at least one or two people locally running the Primaris Psyker with Relic of Lost Cadia garbage and have called them out on it accordingly, not a single one actually bothered to read the entries. They just copy/paste and call it a day.
That people netlist =\= matched play is a joke
"MATCHED PLAY IS THE MOST BALANCED WAY TO PLAY! OPTIMIZE ALL THE THINGS! NETLISTS!"
*play lists that are illegal because you netlisted and didn't read the rules*
It absolutely, 100% does equate to matched play being a damned joke. It's the meta now and with how GW keeps plugging the tournaments on the Community page, these kinds of trash lists where they're not legal keep getting exposure.
Your post kinda proves how this mistake is made. His opponent said "hey whats that relic do" He says "relic x does y".... they go on playing. The player is now reinforced that relic x does y even though he misread the entry by cause he's the only player of "z" faction in his group. He might even be avoiding faction "z" because he doesn't want his list to be stolen.
This has happened quite a few times locally. Some players reads something the wrong way, states it with conviction during a game, and the other players goes on to their next game with the same conviction until someone steps in and says, "I'm not sure that's correct - show me".
Which was actually the point that Halsey seemed to have been making--that competitive players are, based upon the idea of "they're the metachasers!" going to be the ones asking "show me how that works".
While I haven't chased the Meta in 40k it seems to work just like every other game I've played. People chasing the meta have to change deck, list, builds so often to keep up that they often don't know as much about what they are playing as people who play whatever for fun. For example, when I played ESO I played a heavy armor build when it first came out that nobody played because cloth was slightly better. After a small patch and someone making a PVP video of me solo pvping everyone wanted to play my build. I go no stop DMs for like a week from very experienced and good players wanting my build. They didn't understand the ins and outs of it they just wanted to keep up.
My point is these people are in a rush to keep up wich gives them less opertunity to read the rules and ask questions (they are trying to squeeze in as much practice as they can and are most likely using time limits to simulate the tournament they are attending). Im not suprised at all that the most competitive players play the sloppiest. Its the person thats played the same army for 5 editions and has read the book 20 times thats going to have the best understanding of the rules not the guy who picked up the army after it won some local event.
And as a former TO I would tell you that list mistakes happen all the time. Top players are actually more likely to make them because they chase the meta and change armies more frequently. In this case most codices don't have language preventing you from taking "generic" relics on any non-named characters. I believe only Dark Angels and Blood Angels work this way. So for someone jumping books it is not beyond reason that this mistake could happen, and the player would not even know to look for it.
Again, without having read Blood Angels I can't directly respond to this. It concerns me however that if it were worded something like this:
The following Relics are available to models with the Blood Angels keyword...
and if Gabriel Seth had something like:
Replace the Blood Angels keyword with the Flesh Tearers keyword
If any wording like that is present, it concerns me that people missed that in their rush to metachase.
The wording is as follows
"IF your army is led by a Blood Angles warlord, then before the battle you may give one of the following relics to a blood angels character.....If your army is led by a blood angels successor chapter , then before the battle you may give one character from that chapter an Archangel's Shard."
So it is clear if you read it. It just so happens that there are only 2 books like this, and only Blood Angels actually has successor characters. So flesh tearers are really the only place that this would come up in any army competitively. Every other book has a bunch of generic relics that can be given to any "chapter" and then specific relics for specific "chapters".
So if someone picked up the book after playing basically any other army they might just assume that relics work the same way as any other book.
So could it have been caught by reading every word in the codex, absolutely.
Is it an easy mistake to make, absolutely.
He deserved the DQ/resignation.
He doesn't deserve the continued bashing based upon said mistake.
As I said top players change armies a lot, this leads to a more shallow knowledge of rules that are in some of those books because they don't have a ton of time with each army list.
My overall point was how often list mistakes happen. When I used to list check I found errors all the time, and this was before the day of relics, chapter traits etc. I once found a list that was literally 500 points over that was submitted by a player for a 2k tournament.
Asmodios wrote: Im not suprised at all that the most competitive players play the sloppiest. Its the person thats played the same army for 5 editions and has read the book 20 times thats going to have the best understanding of the rules not the guy who picked up the army after it won some local event.
I don't know about that - this is fairly anecdotal. We don't have data on how often "casual only" players screw up their lists and abilities.
I recently played a game with a gentlemen who assured me he had been playing this army since "2nd ed" and screwed up so many rules - to his benefit - that are written plain as day in the codex. It's just not a high profile case that he didn't pay for X when he should have, or that he was generating this or that when he shouldn't have. It is entirely feasible he could make it through day 1 with these kinds of errors and win his games.
Anyway, what competitive players have is an understanding of 40k in a topical breadth kind of way. If you are used to seeing specific rules called out in a specific way across NUMEROUS codexes, to have one deviate and have separate language and restrictions presented in an entirely different way, is rather confusing.
To me this is a consistency problem that 8th edition has. Faction keywords in general are WHOLLY inconsistent from book to book. Chaos makes this even harder to understand, because it's NOT the same from book to book.
This seems like an honest mistake. He paid the penalty. It doesn't invalidate tournaments as a whole.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
This seems like an honest mistake. He paid the penalty. It doesn't invalidate tournaments as a whole.
I agree with this 100% but the gist of this (and several other threads for that matter) is that effectively it does. One single rules error at any point during the game means several things, the players aren't actually good (they're just cheaters and net-listers) and that the results are invalid (GW cannot use them to balance the game because they aren't actually competitive games). Until a tournament is played with no mistakes ever it cannot be looked at as anything other than a joke and a collection of cheaters.
This seems like an honest mistake. He paid the penalty. It doesn't invalidate tournaments as a whole.
I agree with this 100% but the gist of this (and several other threads for that matter) is that effectively it does. One single rules error at any point during the game means several things, the players aren't actually good (they're just cheaters and net-listers) and that the results are invalid (GW cannot use them to balance the game because they aren't actually competitive games). Until a tournament is played with no mistakes ever it cannot be looked at as anything other than a joke and a collection of cheaters.
Realistically, what the "gist" of my comments are is that: a) If GW is going to be looking at and plugging these people and events, they can't just showcase them when everything goes right. They HAVE to be calling these individuals out for not playing properly. They HAVE to make it so that these events penalize people for playing improperly, whether they do it on purpose or by accident. They have to be making it damned clear that these people got to where they were in an event with a specific list by the list breaking rules, not because it was "skilled play" or any such nonsense. b) If GW is going to be balancing the game as a whole(not just in Matched Play) based on these things, I expect the people to be held to a standard of damned near perfection. There shouldn't be amateur hour garbage like people making lists with invalid Relic/Character choices. lastly c) I expect major tournaments to actually be proactive in spotting and countering nonsense like this. It's one thing if the events are running every month and people are constantly tweaking their lists to play in constant games--it's another thing when it's a once a year event.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/29 21:26:12
I'm surprised people are still making a big deal about this. He DQed himself and attempted to apologize to all his previous opponents.I understand how easy it is to make a mistake like this (especially when meta chasing in an edition that's been updated at a pace we have never seen). As long as he learns from his mistake and takes precautions to prevent it in the future I don't see a big deal. The issue with practice games is your opponents typically play different codexes as you. I helped my friend prep for LVO but id have no clue if one unit in his list had the wrong keyword because I don't play DG. I like the idea of having to download your list to something like Dakka before the tournament so the players can see what players are running and point out mistakes like this.
I can't confirm or deny this, but someone has mentioned that this particular individual had also ran a list at Nova where he was giving himself the bonus Command Points from Creed while not having Creed as his Warlord.
IF this is true, then it's not just one mistake at this point--it's a case of this individual just metachasing and not reading the damn rules.
Wait a fething minute. Are you admitting you have not done your homework before discussing this subject? How dare you denigrate our thread by not do your research. I really hope GW and Dakka ignores your opinion because it could negatively effect casual conversationalists.
This seems like an honest mistake. He paid the penalty. It doesn't invalidate tournaments as a whole.
I agree with this 100% but the gist of this (and several other threads for that matter) is that effectively it does. One single rules error at any point during the game means several things, the players aren't actually good (they're just cheaters and net-listers) and that the results are invalid (GW cannot use them to balance the game because they aren't actually competitive games). Until a tournament is played with no mistakes ever it cannot be looked at as anything other than a joke and a collection of cheaters.
Realistically, what the "gist" of my comments are is that:
a) If GW is going to be looking at and plugging these people and events, they can't just showcase them when everything goes right. They HAVE to be calling these individuals out for not playing properly. They HAVE to make it so that these events penalize people for playing improperly, whether they do it on purpose or by accident. They have to be making it damned clear that these people got to where they were in an event with a specific list by the list breaking rules, not because it was "skilled play" or any such nonsense.
b) If GW is going to be balancing the game as a whole(not just in Matched Play) based on these things, I expect the people to be held to a standard of damned near perfection. There shouldn't be amateur hour garbage like people making lists with invalid Relic/Character choices.
lastly
c) I expect major tournaments to actually be proactive in spotting and countering nonsense like this. It's one thing if the events are running every month and people are constantly tweaking their lists to play in constant games--it's another thing when it's a once a year event.
They aren't GW's events so GW has no capacity to force anything to happen during them. GW has 2 options - partner with these major events (who are effectively massive free advertising and recruiting opportunities) and work with them to maximize the benefit to GW's bottom line or do what they did for years and ignore them and reap no rewards from them. Ultimately no one is going to hold tournament players to a standard of damn near perfection, these are people doing this for fun, not professionals, the tournament isn't going to bill itself as the event that kicks out players for tiny mistakes (that's a great way to get no sign ups).
This is amateur hour to be clear - even at the highest levels 40k tournaments are amateur hour. No one is making a living off it, no one is doing it full time, its a hobby. GW as a company who is making money off of it figured out the best thing they can do is use these events to showcase their product and get it in front of more people. What you want to happen and what you expect to happen never will because it simply isn't grounded in reality. This is toy soldiers played for bragging rights on weekends, not anybody's career.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 21:41:37
Asmodios wrote: Im not suprised at all that the most competitive players play the sloppiest. Its the person thats played the same army for 5 editions and has read the book 20 times thats going to have the best understanding of the rules not the guy who picked up the army after it won some local event.
I don't know about that - this is fairly anecdotal. We don't have data on how often "casual only" players screw up their lists and abilities.
I recently played a game with a gentlemen who assured me he had been playing this army since "2nd ed" and screwed up so many rules - to his benefit - that are written plain as day in the codex. It's just not a high profile case that he didn't pay for X when he should have, or that he was generating this or that when he shouldn't have. It is entirely feasible he could make it through day 1 with these kinds of errors and win his games.
Anyway, what competitive players have is an understanding of 40k in a topical breadth kind of way. If you are used to seeing specific rules called out in a specific way across NUMEROUS codexes, to have one deviate and have separate language and restrictions presented in an entirely different way, is rather confusing.
To me this is a consistency problem that 8th edition has. Faction keywords in general are WHOLLY inconsistent from book to book. Chaos makes this even harder to understand, because it's NOT the same from book to book.
This seems like an honest mistake. He paid the penalty. It doesn't invalidate tournaments as a whole.
You and me are saying the same thing. The inconsistency across books is more likely to affect the guy who is army hopping every couple of months (yes there are exceptions to every rule). The more often you hop armies the more of a chance you're going to read x in the same way it was applied in book y. Im sure i mess rules up playing with my friends but i guarantee id miss a lot more if i completely swapped my codex out every month
I'm surprised people are still making a big deal about this. He DQed himself and attempted to apologize to all his previous opponents.I understand how easy it is to make a mistake like this (especially when meta chasing in an edition that's been updated at a pace we have never seen). As long as he learns from his mistake and takes precautions to prevent it in the future I don't see a big deal. The issue with practice games is your opponents typically play different codexes as you. I helped my friend prep for LVO but id have no clue if one unit in his list had the wrong keyword because I don't play DG. I like the idea of having to download your list to something like Dakka before the tournament so the players can see what players are running and point out mistakes like this.
I can't confirm or deny this, but someone has mentioned that this particular individual had also ran a list at Nova where he was giving himself the bonus Command Points from Creed while not having Creed as his Warlord.
IF this is true, then it's not just one mistake at this point--it's a case of this individual just metachasing and not reading the damn rules.
Wait a fething minute. Are you admitting you have not done your homework before discussing this subject? How dare you denigrate our thread by not do your research. I really hope GW and Dakka ignores your opinion because it could negatively effect casual conversationalists.
Firstly, it's "affect". My opinion might have an effect upon another individual, but it might also affect someone.
Second of all, I've made it clear quite a few times in this thread that some of what I've stated has been conditional upon certain items being true. I'm not going to Naftka, Faeit, BoLS or Spikeybits to do "research"--I prefer not to visit those dumpsterfires of sites, and quite frankly most of the information that's necessary could be copy/pasted over here by someone interested in disproving my stances.
I'm surprised people are still making a big deal about this. He DQed himself and attempted to apologize to all his previous opponents.I understand how easy it is to make a mistake like this (especially when meta chasing in an edition that's been updated at a pace we have never seen). As long as he learns from his mistake and takes precautions to prevent it in the future I don't see a big deal. The issue with practice games is your opponents typically play different codexes as you. I helped my friend prep for LVO but id have no clue if one unit in his list had the wrong keyword because I don't play DG. I like the idea of having to download your list to something like Dakka before the tournament so the players can see what players are running and point out mistakes like this.
I can't confirm or deny this, but someone has mentioned that this particular individual had also ran a list at Nova where he was giving himself the bonus Command Points from Creed while not having Creed as his Warlord.
IF this is true, then it's not just one mistake at this point--it's a case of this individual just metachasing and not reading the damn rules.
Wait a fething minute. Are you admitting you have not done your homework before discussing this subject? How dare you denigrate our thread by not do your research. I really hope GW and Dakka ignores your opinion because it could negatively effect casual conversationalists.
Firstly, it's "affect". My opinion might have an effect upon another individual, but it might also affect someone.
Second of all, I've made it clear quite a few times in this thread that some of what I've stated has been conditional upon certain items being true. I'm not going to Naftka, Faeit, BoLS or Spikeybits to do "research"--I prefer not to visit those dumpsterfires of sites, and quite frankly most of the information that's necessary could be copy/pasted over here by someone interested in disproving my stances.
I hope you didn't miss he was mostly poking fun at your hardline stance of perfection or nothing for people who play 40k at tournaments.
This seems like an honest mistake. He paid the penalty. It doesn't invalidate tournaments as a whole.
I agree with this 100% but the gist of this (and several other threads for that matter) is that effectively it does. One single rules error at any point during the game means several things, the players aren't actually good (they're just cheaters and net-listers) and that the results are invalid (GW cannot use them to balance the game because they aren't actually competitive games). Until a tournament is played with no mistakes ever it cannot be looked at as anything other than a joke and a collection of cheaters.
Realistically, what the "gist" of my comments are is that:
a) If GW is going to be looking at and plugging these people and events, they can't just showcase them when everything goes right. They HAVE to be calling these individuals out for not playing properly. They HAVE to make it so that these events penalize people for playing improperly, whether they do it on purpose or by accident. They have to be making it damned clear that these people got to where they were in an event with a specific list by the list breaking rules, not because it was "skilled play" or any such nonsense.
b) If GW is going to be balancing the game as a whole(not just in Matched Play) based on these things, I expect the people to be held to a standard of damned near perfection. There shouldn't be amateur hour garbage like people making lists with invalid Relic/Character choices.
lastly
c) I expect major tournaments to actually be proactive in spotting and countering nonsense like this. It's one thing if the events are running every month and people are constantly tweaking their lists to play in constant games--it's another thing when it's a once a year event.
They aren't GW's events so GW has no capacity to force anything to happen during them. GW has 2 options - partner with these major events (who are effectively massive free advertising and recruiting opportunities) and work with them to maximize the benefit to GW's bottom line or do what they did for years and ignore them and reap no rewards from them. Ultimately no one is going to hold tournament players to a standard of damn near perfection, these are people doing this for fun, not professionals, the tournament isn't going to bill itself as the event that kicks out players for tiny mistakes (that's a great way to get no sign ups).
There's a difference between "kicking players out for tiny mistakes" and "holding players accountable". You can also pretend that people are "doing this for fun" but I would point out that the level of seriousness some people take competitive play sucks the fun out of everything...but you'll just argue that it's me "denigrating an entire base of players" again or some such nonsense.
This is amateur hour to be clear - even at the highest levels 40k tournaments are amateur hour. No one is making a living off it, no one is doing it full time, its a hobby. GW as a company who is making money off of it figured out the best thing they can do is use these events to showcase their product and get it in front of more people. What you want to happen and what you expect to happen never will because it simply isn't grounded in reality. This is toy soldiers played for bragging rights on weekends, not anybody's career.
Can we stop pretending for just one damned second that anyone is claiming there are people playing to "make a living" or doing it as a career or anything like that?
I can damned well expect someone to understand their codex and its rules. You can argue I can't, but guess what? I can absolutely expect someone who is playing competitively in an event where other people have paid money to be part of that event and expect an event that isn't going to have nonsense like this present.
I hope you didn't miss he was mostly poking fun at your hardline stance of perfection or nothing for people who play 40k at tournaments.
Yes, and he's also been arguing that there's people going in and spreading rumors, etc. I've made no secret of there being certain qualifiers attached to some of my argument in this particular instance. You can hit "Filter Thread" and view them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 21:59:09