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Does anyone else get the feeling B77 is a TObot? I mean seriously gets away with some serious trolling.

It looks to me like the problem with the list at the origin of this thread was an honest mistake. I can see how it happened. Its a game played by humans, which is part of the reason why I play. The guy DQ'd himself and made a good post here explaining what happened.

For the folks demanding major changes, how many of you attended Adepticon or other major tournaments? I sense a lot of internet outrage here without much substance behind it. Offering bounties for people who find bad lists? Really really? Come'on man.

One thing I could get behind, though, is a requirement to bring a hard copy of your Codex. Not only would this give Soup players some exercise lugging around eight books, it might help ensure that folks read the fine print in their Codex.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I sense a lot of internet outrage here without much substance behind it.

40k's online community in a nutshell.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
It looks to me like the problem with the list at the origin of this thread was an honest mistake. I can see how it happened. Its a game played by humans, which is part of the reason why I play. The guy DQ'd himself and made a good post here explaining what happened.

For the folks demanding major changes, how many of you attended Adepticon or other major tournaments? I sense a lot of internet outrage here without much substance behind it. Offering bounties for people who find bad lists? Really really? Come'on man.

One thing I could get behind, though, is a requirement to bring a hard copy of your Codex. Not only would this give Soup players some exercise lugging around eight books, it might help ensure that folks read the fine print in their Codex.

Do you not want bad lists found?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
It looks to me like the problem with the list at the origin of this thread was an honest mistake. I can see how it happened. Its a game played by humans, which is part of the reason why I play. The guy DQ'd himself and made a good post here explaining what happened.

For the folks demanding major changes, how many of you attended Adepticon or other major tournaments? I sense a lot of internet outrage here without much substance behind it. Offering bounties for people who find bad lists? Really really? Come'on man.

One thing I could get behind, though, is a requirement to bring a hard copy of your Codex. Not only would this give Soup players some exercise lugging around eight books, it might help ensure that folks read the fine print in their Codex.

Do you not want bad lists found?

Not to the point that I want internet cowboys with no skin in the game to ride herd looking for bounties - the cure must be appropriate to the disease. At the end of the day, a game of 40K at a major tournament is still just a game of 40K. The less people butting in the better!

I go to tournaments (40K and FOW/TY), and I trust my fellow players to police themselves (ourselves) and the TOs to provide some basic level of oversight. Tourney players and organizers are a community (I do local tourneys now, but I've gone to national ones back when the earth was cooling and I didn't have kids). Its not a perfect community, but are the calls for improvement and associated action coming from the community or from the outside?

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Do you not want bad lists found?

Not to the point that I want internet cowboys with no skin in the game to ride herd looking for bounties - the cure must be appropriate to the disease

But why not? Bug bounties work this way. So does TaskRabbit.

In the ammusing side of thing apparently the GW community team (including someone who worked on the Nids codex) were playing an illegal list and making rules errors in the team tournament.

Must be super easy to avoid these things when the rules writers cannot even do it.

Breng77 wrote:
In the ammusing side of thing apparently the GW community team (including someone who worked on the Nids codex) were playing an illegal list and making rules errors in the team tournament.

Must be super easy to avoid these things when the rules writers cannot even do it.

Alternatively, we know GW has very little concern for competitive play, and has expressed their contempt for it in the past. They may have showed up at a tournament, but I remain skeptical that they actually cared about it. Though I suppose the hilarity and PR debacle of GW's own team getting DQed for an illegal list would be a good way to make sure it never happens again...

Breng77 wrote:
In the ammusing side of thing apparently the GW community team (including someone who worked on the Nids codex) were playing an illegal list and making rules errors in the team tournament.

Must be super easy to avoid these things when the rules writers cannot even do it.

Well apart from the person who worked on the codex (and did he or she do the rules or some other element like art or fluff) I get the impression they are fairly casual players - yes you should know the rules if you go to a tournament but I have never met a player who did not make mistakes on occasion - in any system /game.

Its not an easy situation.

Breng77 wrote:
In the ammusing side of thing apparently the GW community team (including someone who worked on the Nids codex) were playing an illegal list and making rules errors in the team tournament.

Must be super easy to avoid these things when the rules writers cannot even do it.

So what was the illegal list they wrote and rules errors being made?

And I mean, if your argument is that "if they can't avoid it then why should everyone else be expected to!"...I can argue "Why didn't the TOs catch an illegal list being put out there for PR purposes?".

Apparently put 2 main guns on a tyranofex which is not allowed. There were other errors I heard about it on the Heroic intervention podcast interview of Matt Root. And lists were never checked by the TO so no reason it would get caught. My point is that everyone (even the guy who apparently worked on writing the book) makes list mistakes so the idea that we should crucify people because of it is nonsense. It also wasn’t even a good list, so obviously not cheating to win. I’d be fine with a DQ during the event, or if lists are checked allowing for correction ahead of time. But the idea that harsh penalties eliminate problems is flawed at its core.

Breng77 wrote:
Apparently put 2 main guns on a tyranofex which is not allowed. There were other errors I heard about it on the Heroic intervention podcast interview of Matt Root. And lists were never checked by the TO so no reason it would get caught. My point is that everyone (even the guy who apparently worked on writing the book) makes list mistakes so the idea that we should crucify people because of it is nonsense. It also wasn’t even a good list, so obviously not cheating to win. I’d be fine with a DQ during the event, or if lists are checked allowing for correction ahead of time. But the idea that harsh penalties eliminate problems is flawed at its core.

Honestly, I feel this is worse. That the rules writers get the rules wrong means there is something grievously wrong with the rules and list building, if even the people who wrote it can't get it right. It shows they really are not caring.

Breng77 wrote:
Apparently put 2 main guns on a tyranofex which is not allowed. There were other errors I heard about it on the Heroic intervention podcast interview of Matt Root. And lists were never checked by the TO so no reason it would get caught. My point is that everyone (even the guy who apparently worked on writing the book) makes list mistakes so the idea that we should crucify people because of it is nonsense. It also wasn’t even a good list, so obviously not cheating to win. I’d be fine with a DQ during the event, or if lists are checked allowing for correction ahead of time. But the idea that harsh penalties eliminate problems is flawed at its core.

So the GW Community team posted on Facebook the other day that they aren't involved in writing the rules (in response to FAQ questions). So are you sure these were the rule writers?

Breng77 wrote:
Apparently put 2 main guns on a tyranofex which is not allowed. There were other errors I heard about it on the Heroic intervention podcast interview of Matt Root. And lists were never checked by the TO so no reason it would get caught. My point is that everyone (even the guy who apparently worked on writing the book) makes list mistakes so the idea that we should crucify people because of it is nonsense. It also wasn’t even a good list, so obviously not cheating to win. I’d be fine with a DQ during the event, or if lists are checked allowing for correction ahead of time. But the idea that harsh penalties eliminate problems is flawed at its core.

Threeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeead in bold. Also, depending on who was playing the "guy who worked on the book" might just have been the guy doing the graphics layouts. Since y'know, they don't say who actually wrote the book anymore.

I don't even know how you can physically put two main guns on a Tyrannofex.

I think I need some concrete proof for this claim on GW team thing, considering that for pages the people were stating as a fact that the person with the BA relic issue and the person with the Guard relic issue were the same guy, while that was not the case. This sounds like complete hearsay to me.

 Crimson wrote:
I think I need some concrete proof for this claim on GW team thing, considering that for pages the people were stating as a fact that the person with the BA relic issue and the person with the Guard relic issue were the same guy, while that was not the case. This sounds like complete hearsay to me.

And I'm guilty a bit of people reading that from my posts and ignoring the big statement about how "I legitimately don't know if this is the same guy or not and if it is, it's not okay".

Then someone else pointed out that this particular individual supposedly did have another issue related to Guard in that they played Creed and gave themselves his bonus Command Points without him actually being the Warlord.

It would then be hearsay from the winner of adepticon who played against them in the team tournament. I have not seen the list myself.

Breng77 wrote:
It would then be hearsay from the winner of adepticon who played against them in the team tournament. I have not seen the list myself.

You know how hearsay works, right?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Apparently put 2 main guns on a tyranofex which is not allowed. There were other errors I heard about it on the Heroic intervention podcast interview of Matt Root. And lists were never checked by the TO so no reason it would get caught. My point is that everyone (even the guy who apparently worked on writing the book) makes list mistakes so the idea that we should crucify people because of it is nonsense. It also wasn’t even a good list, so obviously not cheating to win. I’d be fine with a DQ during the event, or if lists are checked allowing for correction ahead of time. But the idea that harsh penalties eliminate problems is flawed at its core.

Threeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeead in bold. Also, depending on who was playing the "guy who worked on the book" might just have been the guy doing the graphics layouts. Since y'know, they don't say who actually wrote the book anymore.

I don't even know how you can physically put two main guns on a Tyrannofex.

Yeah and unless someone develops a crowd sourcing method that works lists will still not get checked for most large events. So saying “why wasn’t it caught is irrelevant to the point that if they guys who work for the company that makes the game make illegal lists, than it can happen to anyone and a dq when it is easily fixed without (if we are pre-checking), is too harsh. My view is the following: either we don’t Check and wrong list is an auto DQ, or we check and get lists fixed. Pre-checking and dqing people at the door is too much and bad for the community.

Breng77 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Apparently put 2 main guns on a tyranofex which is not allowed. There were other errors I heard about it on the Heroic intervention podcast interview of Matt Root. And lists were never checked by the TO so no reason it would get caught. My point is that everyone (even the guy who apparently worked on writing the book) makes list mistakes so the idea that we should crucify people because of it is nonsense. It also wasn’t even a good list, so obviously not cheating to win. I’d be fine with a DQ during the event, or if lists are checked allowing for correction ahead of time. But the idea that harsh penalties eliminate problems is flawed at its core.

Threeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeead in bold. Also, depending on who was playing the "guy who worked on the book" might just have been the guy doing the graphics layouts. Since y'know, they don't say who actually wrote the book anymore.

I don't even know how you can physically put two main guns on a Tyrannofex.

Yeah and unless someone develops a crowd sourcing method that works lists will still not get checked for most large events. So saying “why wasn’t it caught is irrelevant to the point that if they guys who work for the company that makes the game make illegal lists, than it can happen to anyone and a dq when it is easily fixed without (if we are pre-checking), is too harsh. My view is the following: either we don’t Check and wrong list is an auto DQ, or we check and get lists fixed. Pre-checking and dqing people at the door is too much and bad for the community.

So basically you have no real answer and you're working strictly off hearsay, a thing that you tried to lambast me for earlier.

Good stuff!

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
It would then be hearsay from the winner of adepticon who played against them in the team tournament. I have not seen the list myself.

You know how hearsay works, right?

Yeah it doesn’t involve first hand witnesses. It is “I heard from a guy....”. Not the guy actually involved. I provided you with where I heard the actual interview so you can go listen your self.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Apparently put 2 main guns on a tyranofex which is not allowed. There were other errors I heard about it on the Heroic intervention podcast interview of Matt Root. And lists were never checked by the TO so no reason it would get caught. My point is that everyone (even the guy who apparently worked on writing the book) makes list mistakes so the idea that we should crucify people because of it is nonsense. It also wasn’t even a good list, so obviously not cheating to win. I’d be fine with a DQ during the event, or if lists are checked allowing for correction ahead of time. But the idea that harsh penalties eliminate problems is flawed at its core.

Threeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeead in bold. Also, depending on who was playing the "guy who worked on the book" might just have been the guy doing the graphics layouts. Since y'know, they don't say who actually wrote the book anymore.

I don't even know how you can physically put two main guns on a Tyrannofex.

Yeah and unless someone develops a crowd sourcing method that works lists will still not get checked for most large events. So saying “why wasn’t it caught is irrelevant to the point that if they guys who work for the company that makes the game make illegal lists, than it can happen to anyone and a dq when it is easily fixed without (if we are pre-checking), is too harsh. My view is the following: either we don’t Check and wrong list is an auto DQ, or we check and get lists fixed. Pre-checking and dqing people at the door is too much and bad for the community.

So basically you have no real answer and you're working strictly off hearsay, a thing that you tried to lambast me for earlier.

Good stuff!

Don’t recall lambasting anyone for hearsay. Sure you aren’t confusing me with someone else? I provided my answer to the issue at hand.

Breng77 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
It would then be hearsay from the winner of adepticon who played against them in the team tournament. I have not seen the list myself.

You know how hearsay works, right?

Yeah it doesn’t involve first hand witnesses. It is “I heard from a guy....”. Not the guy actually involved. I provided you with where I heard the actual interview so you can go listen your self.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Apparently put 2 main guns on a tyranofex which is not allowed. There were other errors I heard about it on the Heroic intervention podcast interview of Matt Root. And lists were never checked by the TO so no reason it would get caught. My point is that everyone (even the guy who apparently worked on writing the book) makes list mistakes so the idea that we should crucify people because of it is nonsense. It also wasn’t even a good list, so obviously not cheating to win. I’d be fine with a DQ during the event, or if lists are checked allowing for correction ahead of time. But the idea that harsh penalties eliminate problems is flawed at its core.

Threeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeead in bold. Also, depending on who was playing the "guy who worked on the book" might just have been the guy doing the graphics layouts. Since y'know, they don't say who actually wrote the book anymore.

I don't even know how you can physically put two main guns on a Tyrannofex.

Yeah and unless someone develops a crowd sourcing method that works lists will still not get checked for most large events. So saying “why wasn’t it caught is irrelevant to the point that if they guys who work for the company that makes the game make illegal lists, than it can happen to anyone and a dq when it is easily fixed without (if we are pre-checking), is too harsh. My view is the following: either we don’t Check and wrong list is an auto DQ, or we check and get lists fixed. Pre-checking and dqing people at the door is too much and bad for the community.

So basically you have no real answer and you're working strictly off hearsay, a thing that you tried to lambast me for earlier.

Good stuff!

Don’t recall lambasting anyone for hearsay. Sure you aren’t confusing me with someone else? I provided my answer to the issue at hand.

Not that I have much a stake in this point in the argument, but I thought I'd give the ACTUAL definition of hearsay. In law, it's "an out of court statement offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted". In layman's terms it's worded differently but still the same: "information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor".

So it can include first hand sources. It's basically any quote given to a TO (in this context) by anyone that the TO can't substantiate.

Considering the GW team played the first match on stream I would expect more then 'hearsay'.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
People at the local store wondered why I stripped my Knights of Blood and repainted them as Blood Angels when I told them about the relics...

Totally glad I did now, not worth the hassle when a new player shows up and calls me out on cheating. They also said tournaments wouldn't care haha.

It makes no difference how they are painted, you can still have <blood angels> as your chapter.

What you can't do is take a character that requires you to be chapter <something else> and still take relics that are <blood angels> only no matter how they're painted.

Well, originally I wasn't go to use any special characters. But the Codex made things like Lemartes and Mephiston pretty sweet. Figured to avoid all confusion I would just paint them all in glorious black and red. Plus, I didn't really have all that many painted up anyways haha. Made the decision pretty easy.

Breng77 wrote:
In the ammusing side of thing apparently the GW community team (including someone who worked on the Nids codex) were playing an illegal list and making rules errors in the team tournament.

Must be super easy to avoid these things when the rules writers cannot even do it.

I played in the Adepticon TT against Phil Kelly many years ago. He had his rules wrong a few times during that game as well.

Though to be fair, his error was trying to play by 5th edition rules while the rest of us plebs still only had 4th edition as our ruleset for 6 more months.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

I played in the Adepticon TT against Phil Kelly many years ago. He had his rules wrong a few times during that game as well.

Though to be fair, his error was trying to play by 5th edition rules while the rest of us plebs still only had 4th edition as our ruleset for 6 more months.

Okay, that's pretty hilarious.

Phil... hee. He loves his precious eldar so.

 Ordana wrote:
Considering the GW team played the first match on stream I would expect more then 'hearsay'.

"Heresy", perhaps?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Considering the GW team played the first match on stream I would expect more then 'hearsay'.

"Heresy", perhaps?

I keep seeing that heresy word flying around... gets my burning instincts tingling.

Regardless of rule complexity or 8th Edition issues, it's an incredibly positive thing that action was taken, and on a top 16 player no less. Up until now, the only consequences for illegal lists or cheating was ridicule by the internet.