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2018/05/01 12:33:31
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
No. He wrote both Deathwatch books (well, one was with Cruddace, but the other is on him) with terrible rules* in 7th edition, and is responsible for the mess that was Eldar 6th edition book, then even greater mess when he buffed what was borderline OP into stratosphere writing Eldar 7th edition. Really, he always seem to produce terribly bad rules, unless it's Eldar, then they will be broken in all sorts of ways. His fluff is just as bad, Kelly's Tau series is one BL series I can honestly, 100% sure say was worse than most fanfiction. It was literally dud after dud after dud, with Farsight, all on his own, killing like a billion Imperial soldiers in last one (and that is not an exaggeration).
*beyond terrible, in fact, 7th edition DWfaq written by him introduced two petty nerfs that broke both precedent established in Codex SM and wargear on the model, just so he could make already bad army even worse.
Really, if there is one person I wouldn't mind leaving from GW, it's him. I wonder if he even understands the rules of the game he writes for (besides making his pet faction OP so he can win lunch break matches) - Warhammer Community once published IG list he wrote for one of their live games and it was so full of errors player with it would be laughed out of game store...
Care to offer a source for all that? In interviews for the build up to both Deahwatch and Genestealer Cults it was Phil Kelly who covered all the fluff whilst Simon Grant was responsible for rules, and with Fracture of Biel-Tan it appears it was only the fluff that Kelly was involved in.
We also have James Hewitt, another writer involved with the 7th ed Eldar codex squarely laying the blame at higher ups like Merrit who actively prevented anything like reasonable points costing for Wraithknights and Scatbikes.
2018/05/01 12:58:44
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
fortis kill teams: - min 5 intercessors - aggressors remove the -1 hit for heavy/assault weapons for the whole squad. - inceptors provide fall back & shoot as if the whole unit has fly - reivers disturb morale
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/01 13:48:58
6k 6k
3k 1k
2018/05/01 13:53:43
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Cephalobeard wrote: Normal intercessors just seem better than the average DW Veteran in every way, since they have special issue ammo.
The codex: "Primawatch" jokes were real.
Yeah, pretty much. They were firing Kraken Bolts to begin with. Now they can basically have Rapid Fire Stalker Boltguns if they use Kraken Bolts. Rapid Fire 1 36" Str 4 AP-2 is nothing to sniff at. It doesn't look like Boltstorm Gauntlets or Assault Bolters benefit, though. I would be all over Deathwatch Inceptor Squads if they did.
Well, it looks pretty decent so far. My Deathwatch are kinda stuck in my backlog and not moving anywhere any time soon.
Cephalobeard wrote: Normal intercessors just seem better than the average DW Veteran in every way, since they have special issue ammo.
The codex: "Primawatch" jokes were real.
Yeah, pretty much. They were firing Kraken Bolts to begin with. Now they can basically have Rapid Fire Stalker Boltguns if they use Kraken Bolts. Rapid Fire 1 36" Str 4 AP-2 is nothing to sniff at. It doesn't look like Boltstorm Gauntlets or Assault Bolters benefit, though. I would be all over Deathwatch Inceptor Squads if they did.
Well, it looks pretty decent so far. My Deathwatch are kinda stuck in my backlog and not moving anywhere any time soon.
I present to you, buyers remorse in physical form.
fortis kill teams:
- min 5 intercessors
- aggressors remove the -1 hit for heavy/assault weapons for the whole squad.
- inceptors provide fall back & shoot as if the whole unit has fly
- reivers disturb morale
Pretty interesting, but, i'm not seeing the point of adding in an Aggressor to the unit, unless you want to advance around the table while paying all the extra points for the assault/heavy weapons.
Fall back and shoot is pretty nice.
Reiver morale affects seem pretty pointless.
Shame you can't add in a Hellblaster (by the looks of it). I kinda think it'd be best just running 5 Intercessors and 1 Inceptor and moving around the table with rapid fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has this been posted yet??
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pictures from the WC post.
Spoiler:
The Mission Tactics ability allows the Deathwatch to adjust their fighting style dependent on your opponent. At the start of the game, you’ll get to pick a Mission Tactic which corresponds to a Battlefield Role – Troops, Fast Attack, Elites, etc. – and your entire army will gain re-rolls of 1s to wound against that unit. Like Chapter Tactics, Mission Tactics applies to all your infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts, so you’ll be able to take advantage of a wide range of units.
Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with this ammunition, making Intercessors a very powerful choice. Kraken bolts, for example, help compensate for the lower AP of the auto bolt rifle, while a Reiver’s heavy bolt pistol firing vengeance rounds would have an AP of -3!
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/05/01 14:15:19
2018/05/01 14:12:25
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
That relic looks pretty nice though. It essentially gives your units within a 6” bubble of the Character 2 mission tactics they can choose between each time they shoot or fight.
Setup your army wide tactic (well, Infantry, Bike and Dreadnought tactic) as troops, then pick and choose another each turn. Shoot at an elite and charge a troop.
Probably not going to come into play that much though, as I’m expecting DW to still be pretty elite and low on ability to make use of it in an actual game.
2018/05/01 14:23:30
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Adding a Hellblaster (or optimally, multiple hellblasters) provides its own benefits: you get a hellblaster that can fall back and shoot and a hellblaster with 5 intercessors standing in front of him.
That's really really good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kdash wrote: That relic looks pretty nice though. It essentially gives your units within a 6” bubble of the Character 2 mission tactics they can choose between each time they shoot or fight.
Setup your army wide tactic (well, Infantry, Bike and Dreadnought tactic) as troops, then pick and choose another each turn. Shoot at an elite and charge a troop.
Probably not going to come into play that much though, as I’m expecting DW to still be pretty elite and low on ability to make use of it in an actual game.
You could also use it to give mission tactics to a vehicle, more usefully. I.e. a blackstar or land raider that wouldn't ordinarily get chapter tactics can now have them.
Interesting? sure, but I don't know if it's actually terribly useful as your relic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 14:24:39
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2018/05/01 14:28:36
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
_Ness wrote: yes, they can be added. these 5 pictures belong together.
Ok, cool, thanks
Automatically Appended Next Post:
_Ness wrote: hellblasters got heavy weapons, dont they? so they benefit even more, not having the -1hit penalty for moving
They can swap from Rapid Fire to either Heavy or Assault weapons. But, generally the consensus is the rapid fire is just way better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Adding a Hellblaster (or optimally, multiple hellblasters) provides its own benefits: you get a hellblaster that can fall back and shoot and a hellblaster with 5 intercessors standing in front of him.
That's really really good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kdash wrote: That relic looks pretty nice though. It essentially gives your units within a 6” bubble of the Character 2 mission tactics they can choose between each time they shoot or fight.
Setup your army wide tactic (well, Infantry, Bike and Dreadnought tactic) as troops, then pick and choose another each turn. Shoot at an elite and charge a troop.
Probably not going to come into play that much though, as I’m expecting DW to still be pretty elite and low on ability to make use of it in an actual game.
You could also use it to give mission tactics to a vehicle, more usefully. I.e. a blackstar or land raider that wouldn't ordinarily get chapter tactics can now have them.
Interesting? sure, but I don't know if it's actually terribly useful as your relic.
Ooh, i missed that point of giving it to a vehicle if within range of the relic. Could be really interesting with the high rate of fire.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/01 14:30:45
2018/05/01 14:57:22
Subject: Re:Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Adding an Aggressor to Intercessors is great IMHO. Equipped with Auto Bolt rifles with Vengeance rounds, they are range 18" AP-2 and can advance and shoot with no penalty. Add in the fact that Aggressor weapons are also 18" (plus the inceptor you will add to fall back and shoot from assault) and you have a nice unit with all weapons in same range band.
2018/05/01 15:01:06
Subject: Re:Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Well, I am wondering if Deathwatch will get access to Repulsors (can't remember if they already do) or if Fortis Kill Teams will be able to go in a Blackstar. I also hope that Intercessors can have Power Swords or Chainswords on the Sergeant. I wouldn't mind Xenophase Blades, but that might be getting greedy.
I could see including an Aggressor and some Hellblasters in the squad to make for some better use of the Heavy variant of the Plasma Incinerator. Or even running Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles would be pretty nice. A unit with all Assault Weapons sporting Kraken Bolts might be fun. I still wish Boltstorm Gauntlets and Assault Bolters received SI Ammo. That would be awesome.
Bear in mind of course that Interceptors nominally being better than deathwatch veterans is only really relevant if you’re inclined to run a Primaris or mixed army. If you got into deathwatch to run deathwatch instead of black Primaris, then Primaris could have rapid fire 10 strength 16 ap -6 special ammo and it still wouldn’t be relevant.
2018/05/01 15:02:41
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Cephalobeard wrote: Normal intercessors just seem better than the average DW Veteran in every way, since they have special issue ammo.
The codex: "Primawatch" jokes were real.
Yeah, pretty much. They were firing Kraken Bolts to begin with. Now they can basically have Rapid Fire Stalker Boltguns if they use Kraken Bolts. Rapid Fire 1 36" Str 4 AP-2 is nothing to sniff at. It doesn't look like Boltstorm Gauntlets or Assault Bolters benefit, though. I would be all over Deathwatch Inceptor Squads if they did.
Well, it looks pretty decent so far. My Deathwatch are kinda stuck in my backlog and not moving anywhere any time soon.
I present to you, buyers remorse in physical form.
The sad thing here is that those models are gorgeous. I've wanted them since they came out. I mean look at the myriad of unique weapons, and compare that to how stale and bland the primaris line is right now. If primaris had those two handed hammers, axes and flamethrower Heavy Bolters, then I could see it. But as it is, they're just bland!
2018/05/01 15:03:16
Subject: Re:Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
bullyboy wrote: Adding an Aggressor to Intercessors is great IMHO. Equipped with Auto Bolt rifles with Vengeance rounds, they are range 18" AP-2 and can advance and shoot with no penalty. Add in the fact that Aggressor weapons are also 18" (plus the inceptor you will add to fall back and shoot from assault) and you have a nice unit with all weapons in same range band.
If you're doing all Assault Weapons, sure. Stalker Bolt Rifles being able to move and fire without penalty though? Maybe even nicer.
We need more information and leaks before really knowing what to do, though.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/01 15:07:40
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Agressors+Intercessors will be beautifull. Intercessors acting as the extra wounds of Agressors that receive buffs for being in the same squad and that by themselves have good damage output.
I don't think Inceptors and Reivers will be all that relevant, but Agressors+Intercessors will be the dream-team of primaris.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/05/01 15:15:06
Subject: Re:Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
bullyboy wrote: Adding an Aggressor to Intercessors is great IMHO. Equipped with Auto Bolt rifles with Vengeance rounds, they are range 18" AP-2 and can advance and shoot with no penalty. Add in the fact that Aggressor weapons are also 18" (plus the inceptor you will add to fall back and shoot from assault) and you have a nice unit with all weapons in same range band.
If you're doing all Assault Weapons, sure. Stalker Bolt Rifles being able to move and fire without penalty though? Maybe even nicer.
We need more information and leaks before really knowing what to do, though.
Stalker Bolt Rifles would become 42" Str 4 AP-3. Not too shabby. I still think the regular Bolt Rifle and Auto Bolt Rifle benefit more though. The regular Bolt Rifle becomes a Rapid Fire Stalker Bolt Rifle. Now, if they gave Stalker Bolt Rifles the sniper abilities (same with Stalker Boltguns) like they should have, NOW you have an awesome combination.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: Agressors+Intercessors will be beautifull. Intercessors acting as the extra wounds of Agressors that receive buffs for being in the same squad and that by themselves have good damage output.
I don't think Inceptors and Reivers will be all that relevant, but Agressors+Intercessors will be the dream-team of primaris.
I almost forgot about Reivers. I hope they have more going for them than a morale debuff. They are neat models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 15:19:41
Galas wrote: Agressors+Intercessors will be beautifull. Intercessors acting as the extra wounds of Agressors that receive buffs for being in the same squad and that by themselves have good damage output.
I don't think Inceptors and Reivers will be all that relevant, but Agressors+Intercessors will be the dream-team of primaris.
Inceptors giving Fly for all intents and purposes is pretty clutch though. Reivers I agree with you though.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/01 15:28:00
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Galas wrote: Agressors+Intercessors will be beautifull. Intercessors acting as the extra wounds of Agressors that receive buffs for being in the same squad and that by themselves have good damage output.
I don't think Inceptors and Reivers will be all that relevant, but Agressors+Intercessors will be the dream-team of primaris.
Inceptors giving Fly for all intents and purposes is pretty clutch though. Reivers I agree with you though.
But how does it work, do they strap the Intercessors to the Inceptor with marine baby harnesses so that the whole squad flies around on his back? It seems silly to me that sticking a jump unit in with another unit = the whole unit can fly. That's lazy game design...
2018/05/01 15:35:46
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Galas wrote: Agressors+Intercessors will be beautifull. Intercessors acting as the extra wounds of Agressors that receive buffs for being in the same squad and that by themselves have good damage output.
I don't think Inceptors and Reivers will be all that relevant, but Agressors+Intercessors will be the dream-team of primaris.
Inceptors giving Fly for all intents and purposes is pretty clutch though. Reivers I agree with you though.
But how does it work, do they strap the Intercessors to the Inceptor with marine baby harnesses so that the whole squad flies around on his back? It seems silly to me that sticking a jump unit in with another unit = the whole unit can fly. That's lazy game design...
We can just give the whole unit Fly without any points increase or give them Fly for a ridiculous price increase.
I thought it was a cool mechanic with the regular Deathwatch teams getting bonuses like that with differing models in the unit
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/01 15:38:24
Subject: Re:Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
changemod wrote: Bear in mind of course that Interceptors nominally being better than deathwatch veterans is only really relevant if you’re inclined to run a Primaris or mixed army. If you got into deathwatch to run deathwatch instead of black Primaris, then Primaris could have rapid fire 10 strength 16 ap -6 special ammo and it still wouldn’t be relevant.
Well yes, but at the same time, like with the Thousand Sons army release, there's bound to be a lot of folks with an existing, worst-in-the-game deathwatch army who were really hoping GW was going to use their codex to do something like fix the many problems deathwatch have instead of using the book as an excuse to push Primaris marines more.
But then again, I suppose so did Dark Angels players... "oh boy, I can't wait to see how this new codex buffs my Deathwing army!"
GW: look at these great rules we gave Hellblasters!
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2018/05/01 15:39:03
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
6k 
6k
3k 
1k 
5250 pts
3850 pts
2500 pts 
