Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

tneva82 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
Or, the beta rules might have made this better. The Beta rules say you can't deepstrike outside of your deployment turn 1, but this allows you to circumvent this rule.

Actually the beta rules doesn't allow units that arrive from Tactical Reserves to arrive outside their DZ on turn 1
So it is gonna be very hard to circumvent that if the WW Gate brings in Tactical Reserves, even for the most rules lawyery of rules lawyers

-

Would be funny if GW had to resort to FAQ\in gate to work differently to account for the FAQ rule that was written likely after gate rules were written

I hope they create a totally separate PDF and/or book to address this. We have too few books/supplemental files to bring for a game.

 Galef wrote:

Actually the beta rules doesn't allow units that arrive from Tactical Reserves to arrive outside their DZ on turn 1
So it is gonna be very hard to circumvent that if the WW Gate brings in Tactical Reserves, even for the most rules lawyery of rules lawyers

-

Except for all the exceptions: Genestealer Cult, Raven Guard, etc..

WW Gate may or may not be an exception.

I guess we'll know when the rule comes out of beta?

The way they implemented the smite nerf gives me hope that Gw sorta listens/changes the beta rules. The most heard complaiont abouth the smite nerf was from GK/TS players ,with a very valid concern, and it was adressed.

Yeah it totally depends on what the actual rules are. As it stands right now, in order to use the gate you’d have to be deployed from reserve, thus meaning you can’t use it turn 1 outside of your deployment.
Even if it is like a transport, you still couldn’t use it due to how they’ve ruled on the Monolith and it’s stratagem to teleport in units from reserve. Who knows, they might release a stratagem with the kit allowing units already on the table to jump into the webway and out of the gate in the movement phase.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Actually the beta rules doesn't allow units that arrive from Tactical Reserves to arrive outside their DZ on turn 1
So it is gonna be very hard to circumvent that if the WW Gate brings in Tactical Reserves, even for the most rules lawyery of rules lawyers

-

Except for all the exceptions: Genestealer Cult, Raven Guard, etc..

WW Gate may or may not be an exception.

Genestealer Cult are the only exception, all the others aren't using Tactical Reserves.

Any news within the new White Dwarf, when the new version of the Kill Team (boxed) game will be released!? ...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 _Ness wrote:
well the wording is that they can fall back and shoot AS IF they could fly. so they dont get the fly keyword.

https://www.facebook.com/420830645026189/photos/a.427873040988616.1073741829.420830645026189/452421811867072/?type=3&permPage=1

"Ein Interceptor ermöglicht dir, dich zurückzuziehen und zu schießen, als würde die gesamt einheit fliegen können"

A Interceptor allows you to fall back and shoot, as if the whole unit could fly.

alsmost word-by-word translation.

We know it isn't Fly word for word, just the important bit of being able to fall back and shoot.

So basically, and the Intercessors fall back, the Inceptor, is laying down covering fire, giving them ample opportunity to fall back and setup to shoot again.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/02/2nd-may-codex-deathwatch-building-primaris-kill-teams/

So, if you want your primaris tactical squad, Deathwatch is the way to do it. 5 intercessors, sargeant with a power sword +1 hellblaster and boom, a Primaris Tactical squad with special weapon. Now they only need a rhino/razorback equivalent.

 Galas wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/02/2nd-may-codex-deathwatch-building-primaris-kill-teams/

So, if you want your primaris tactical squad, Deathwatch is the way to do it. 5 intercessors, sargeant with a power sword +1 hellblaster and boom, a Primaris Tactical squad with special weapon. Now they only need a rhino/razorback equivalent.

Well that's what the repulsor is for.

8 intercessors, 1 hellblaster (special weapon), 1 Aggressor (heavy weapon) and a repulsor - you have a super-sized tactical squad in a rhino

Want info on existing DW.

 Eldarain wrote:
Want info on existing DW.

My hopes are INCREDIBLY low at this point.

Any codex that comes out with an emphasis on a new model range has tended to focus almost exclusively on making the new stuff competitive/amazing while leaving anything with an existing model unbuffed from index levels or only minorly buffed.

Death Guard - Plague marines sidelined, many existing popular DG units like oblits and bikers outright removed
Dark Angels - heavy emphasis on adding new plasma-focused Primaris marines, popular existing ravenwing/deathwing line heavily de-emphasized
Thousand Sons - heavy emphasis on the AOS port units available for the first time, not even a single unique stratagem for the iconic Rubric units
Daemons - new Nurgle range is highly competitive, many existing/older models completely left by the wayside leading to nearly every competitive daemon list being nurgle-focused.

with few exceptions, the codexes without new model ranges have been aimed at the existing hobbyist/collector. But so far with marines, only Blood Angels have avoided the Primaris Only Focus.

Honestly I’m mostly annoyed because there’s a heavy contradiction here:

Deathwatch are made up of veterans, their basic troops and all specialists are what’d be first company units in other armies with the exception of bikers, who are still fluff-wise a veteran riding a bike, right? Furthermore, their whole deal is high equipment flexibility.

Meanwhile, Primaris don’t actually have a veteran unit yet, and are low flexibility with very standardised loadouts. Yes, a mixed Primaris unit has some flexibility in that it recruits from five different units comboed together, but the individual units are the same as before.

A deathwatch veteran starts out with a bolter and chainsword, and can take from a broad list of combi, special, heavy and melee weapons. He’s a sternguard equivalent.

An intercessor has a bolt rifle.

My point being, Primaris as they currently are mesh very poorly with deathwatch thematics, so yes it absolutely is kinda annoying that they’re the thing being pushed by this codex and it’s previews.

FWIW, I think mixing Terminators and Vanguards with Vets gives Kill Teams the Death Watch look a lot better than the "build anything" style unit that tries to mix Frag Cannons and Power Maces with Stalker Bolters and Plasma Pistols. These rules not really working at all for the existing Kill Teams is one of my current big disappointments. I'm quite happy if the Primaris teams can make it work, even if the models themselves are greatly simplified.

changemod wrote:
Honestly I’m mostly annoyed because there’s a heavy contradiction here:

Deathwatch are made up of veterans, their basic troops and all specialists are what’d be first company units in other armies with the exception of bikers, who are still fluff-wise a veteran riding a bike, right? Furthermore, their whole deal is high equipment flexibility.

Meanwhile, Primaris don’t actually have a veteran unit yet, and are low flexibility with very standardised loadouts. Yes, a mixed Primaris unit has some flexibility in that it recruits from five different units comboed together, but the individual units are the same as before.

A deathwatch veteran starts out with a bolter and chainsword, and can take from a broad list of combi, special, heavy and melee weapons. He’s a sternguard equivalent.

An intercessor has a bolt rifle.

My point being, Primaris as they currently are mesh very poorly with deathwatch thematics, so yes it absolutely is kinda annoying that they’re the thing being pushed by this codex and it’s previews.

And what would you see for a Deathwatch army made up with 30k lists?

Primaris are organized, seemingly, based upon the Legions. There's whole squads with Bolt Rifles/variant Bolt Rifles, whole squads with Plasma weapons, whole squads with yaddayadda.

I truly don't expect us to see "Primaris Veterans" in the vein of Sternguard or Vanguard. I've been expecting us to see something like the Mor Deythan, Headhunters, Medusan Immortals, etc down the line. It would be a way for them to add some more unique flavor to the Codex Marine books and their stuff.

changemod wrote:
Honestly I’m mostly annoyed because there’s a heavy contradiction here:

Deathwatch are made up of veterans, their basic troops and all specialists are what’d be first company units in other armies with the exception of bikers, who are still fluff-wise a veteran riding a bike, right? Furthermore, their whole deal is high equipment flexibility.

Meanwhile, Primaris don’t actually have a veteran unit yet, and are low flexibility with very standardised loadouts. Yes, a mixed Primaris unit has some flexibility in that it recruits from five different units comboed together, but the individual units are the same as before.

A deathwatch veteran starts out with a bolter and chainsword, and can take from a broad list of combi, special, heavy and melee weapons. He’s a sternguard equivalent.

An intercessor has a bolt rifle.

My point being, Primaris as they currently are mesh very poorly with deathwatch thematics, so yes it absolutely is kinda annoying that they’re the thing being pushed by this codex and it’s previews.

I think people still underestimate the time scale the Gathering Storm and everything since has worked on. There're entire companies and even entire Chapters of Primaris who've been kicking around crusading and fighting post-Guilliman wake-up for decades longer than it took Ragnar to go from snotty teenager to Wolf Lord and many a Dark Angel to go from Scout to full-blown Deathwing Veteran (especially if those promotions happen at Gav Thorpe speed).

 Galef wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
Or, the beta rules might have made this better. The Beta rules say you can't deepstrike outside of your deployment turn 1, but this allows you to circumvent this rule.

Actually the beta rules doesn't allow units that arrive from Tactical Reserves to arrive outside their DZ on turn 1
So it is gonna be very hard to circumvent that if the WW Gate brings in Tactical Reserves, even for the most rules lawyery of rules lawyers

-

I would be okay if the Eldar had a model that could be the exception to the new rule. It fits with how they opperate, and their cc units are much easier to control (i.e. I think they're balanced) than those of other factions.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Galas wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/02/2nd-may-codex-deathwatch-building-primaris-kill-teams/

So, if you want your primaris tactical squad, Deathwatch is the way to do it. 5 intercessors, sargeant with a power sword +1 hellblaster and boom, a Primaris Tactical squad with special weapon. Now they only need a rhino/razorback equivalent.

Well that's what the repulsor is for.

8 intercessors, 1 hellblaster (special weapon), 1 Aggressor (heavy weapon) and a repulsor - you have a super-sized tactical squad in a rhino

Think you have to drop an Intercessor since the Aggressor counts as 2 models.

changemod wrote:
Honestly I’m mostly annoyed because there’s a heavy contradiction here:

Deathwatch are made up of veterans, their basic troops and all specialists are what’d be first company units in other armies with the exception of bikers, who are still fluff-wise a veteran riding a bike, right? Furthermore, their whole deal is high equipment flexibility.

Meanwhile, Primaris don’t actually have a veteran unit yet, and are low flexibility with very standardised loadouts. Yes, a mixed Primaris unit has some flexibility in that it recruits from five different units comboed together, but the individual units are the same as before.

A deathwatch veteran starts out with a bolter and chainsword, and can take from a broad list of combi, special, heavy and melee weapons. He’s a sternguard equivalent.

An intercessor has a bolt rifle.

My point being, Primaris as they currently are mesh very poorly with deathwatch thematics, so yes it absolutely is kinda annoying that they’re the thing being pushed by this codex and it’s previews.

Still really wish they had decided to just replace old marines quicker with the Primaris models and statline rather than this separate monotone unit shenanigans. I love the models way more than the squat, stumpy legged marines and the stats feel more like superhuman soldiers with their superior wounds and attacks.

Be interesting to see what pts premium (if any) they put on a DW primaris squad.

So you have to take 5 intercessors minimum in a deathwatch primaris squad? That's fairly annoying, if I want to do 3 bolt rifles and 2 plasma incinerators or something that should be doable. Would let people buy one small box of each unit type and make a couple of squads out of it.

 ElvisJuice wrote:
So you have to take 5 intercessors minimum in a deathwatch primaris squad? That's fairly annoying, if I want to do 3 bolt rifles and 2 plasma incinerators or something that should be doable. Would let people buy one small box of each unit type and make a couple of squads out of it.

Same with the Vets in mixed Deathwatch squads. They're the Objective Secured tax if that makes any sense.

Yeah but with normal deathwatch veterans they've got loads of weapon options (since they're veterans). This is like needing to take 5 basic tactical marines, doesn't make sense with Deathwatch

changemod wrote:
Honestly I’m mostly annoyed because there’s a heavy contradiction here:

Deathwatch are made up of veterans, their basic troops and all specialists are what’d be first company units in other armies with the exception of bikers, who are still fluff-wise a veteran riding a bike, right? Furthermore, their whole deal is high equipment flexibility.

Meanwhile, Primaris don’t actually have a veteran unit yet, and are low flexibility with very standardised loadouts. Yes, a mixed Primaris unit has some flexibility in that it recruits from five different units comboed together, but the individual units are the same as before.

A deathwatch veteran starts out with a bolter and chainsword, and can take from a broad list of combi, special, heavy and melee weapons. He’s a sternguard equivalent.

An intercessor has a bolt rifle.

My point being, Primaris as they currently are mesh very poorly with deathwatch thematics, so yes it absolutely is kinda annoying that they’re the thing being pushed by this codex and it’s previews.

In a way, I really do [please do not lynch me] think that GW should have totally axed the marine line, and revamped it with Primaris instead of creating this odd hybrid we currently have. It would have been painful for those who have recently bought marine armies, but in the long run it would be less awkward for them to work with. As it stands now, the Primaris are the future, and five years down the road it stand to reason we will see a Codex: Primaris Astartes that is fully flushed out with infantry, tanks, flyers and heroes. But for now, we're left juggling two different product lines, with strange rules as to why older models cannot be used with the newer ones.

 ElvisJuice wrote:
Yeah but with normal deathwatch veterans they've got loads of weapon options (since they're veterans). This is like needing to take 5 basic tactical marines, doesn't make sense with Deathwatch

Which is the balancing act. The Primaris Marines are, individually, better than the Deathwatch Veterans due to their additional wound and such. But a Deathwatch Veteran Kill Team has infinitely more weapon options. Want a squad with maximum effectiveness, take five Combi-Plasma Veterans with Chainswords. They have more attacks and better weapons than the Primaris. They don't feel like a tax. Whereas Intercessors do feel a bit like a tax. Sure, run a Power Sword Sergeant and give him a Grenade Launcher and you have yourself a decent Marine out of the five.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Want info on existing DW.

My hopes are INCREDIBLY low at this point.

Any codex that comes out with an emphasis on a new model range has tended to focus almost exclusively on making the new stuff competitive/amazing while leaving anything with an existing model unbuffed from index levels or only minorly buffed.

Death Guard - Plague marines sidelined, many existing popular DG units like oblits and bikers outright removed

Oblits are bikes were not DG units. They were units DG used, because they abused the toughness bonus.

Dark Angels - heavy emphasis on adding new plasma-focused Primaris marines, popular existing ravenwing/deathwing line heavily de-emphasized

Don't have a comment on this one, because I don't know it well enough.

Thousand Sons - heavy emphasis on the AOS port units available for the first time, not even a single unique stratagem for the iconic Rubric units

Soul Flare. And the FAQ de-emphasized Tzaangors and boosted Rubrics, so...

Daemons - new Nurgle range is highly competitive, many existing/older models completely left by the wayside leading to nearly every competitive daemon list being nurgle-focused.

Nurgle has new toys that have synergies with DG. The other gods will get theirs when it's time. There are viable non-nurgle lists (though many still take nurglings).

 Togusa wrote:
It would have been painful for those who have recently bought marine armies, but in the long run it would be less awkward for them to work with.

Actually it wouldn't be so painful because if old Marines are no longer supported, players can then just use their old marines as Primaris marines
It is exactly the same as using old metal Terminators on 25mm bases. Or using the old metal Bloodthirster that is half the size of the new plastic one

But having both exist makes it harder because players need BOTH regular Marines AND Primaris and my use the right models.
GW knew exactly what they were doing.

-

So I guess I'm the minority who think the new primaris marines make a lot of sense with deathwatch rules?

The basic intercessors have three bolt weapon variants all of which can (presumably) use specialized ammo, with options to add inceptors, reivers, and gravis marines, all of whom also have weapons with similar ranges that can also take advantage of specialized ammo, and the entire unit can have assault guns while being adequate to good in a fight. Even hellblasters can at least match the range and potential run+shoot capability.

Generally speaking they work far better with deathwatch rules than normal deathwatch do imo.

Yeah, one of the big problems with normal Vets is that you can take all these special weapons, but you still pay for SIA that makes it so that, to a degree, the efficient loadout is a standard bolter anyway. Intercessors are basically that originally, but SIA combines betterl with the improved Bolt Rifle statline with the extra range and AP.

 LunarSol wrote:
Yeah, one of the big problems with normal Vets is that you can take all these special weapons, but you still pay for SIA that makes it so that, to a degree, the efficient loadout is a standard bolter anyway. Intercessors are basically that originally, but SIA combines betterl with the improved Bolt Rifle statline with the extra range and AP.

One of the ways to fix that is to make them pay points for the regular Bolter (and therefore make them cheaper to kit out with the other weapons) or not let replacement weapons...replace them.

Combi-weapons and storm shields are the useful things to take on regular deathwatch veterans. Replacing their bolter with a plasma gun or whatever doesn't typically make sense.

 Galef wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
Or, the beta rules might have made this better. The Beta rules say you can't deepstrike outside of your deployment turn 1, but this allows you to circumvent this rule.

Actually the beta rules doesn't allow units that arrive from Tactical Reserves to arrive outside their DZ on turn 1
So it is gonna be very hard to circumvent that if the WW Gate brings in Tactical Reserves, even for the most rules lawyery of rules lawyers
-

Do you even know how rules work? Special rules circumvent the normal rules all the time, that's their purpose.

If you advance and then shoot assault weapons you have a -1 to hit. Battle focus: you dont suffer a -1 to hit while firing an assault weapon even if you advanced this turn. See, the special rule circumvented the normal rule. That's its purpose. The portal can have a rule that let's you ignore the 1st turn restriction of not being able to deploy outside of your DZ. Sheesh...