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The DS cap for turn 1 is awful.

One thing that immediately strikes me is that in addition to buying a turn for the big guns, it also gives the gunline army a turn in which to move/advance their bubble wrap up the board, meaning that when your assault units do eventually get to be of use, and if the manage to make the charge role, they're miles away from their actual high priority targets. No more consolidating tie up, no more pressure. So the big guns kill what's on the table turn one, and the deepstrike element stuck in midfield turn 2. Mayyyyybe turn 3 their remnants can make in into combat with a unit worth more than 50pts. This won't remove bubblewrap from the game, it will just make it much much more powerful. Absurd.

Finally, most games at tournament level end at turn 3, so by deepstriking a unit you're removing 33% of their effective value.

How did they think this was a viable rule?

 grouchoben wrote:
The DS cap for turn 1 is awful.

One thing that immediately strikes me is that in addition to buying a turn for the big guns, it also gives the gunline army a turn in which to move/advance their bubble wrap up the board, meaning that when your assault units do eventually get to be of use, and if the manage to make the charge role, they're miles away from their actual high priority targets. No more consolidating tie up, no more pressure. So the big guns kill what's on the table turn one, and the deepstrike element stuck in midfield turn 2. Mayyyyybe turn 3 their remnants can make in into combat with a unit worth more than 50pts. This won't remove bubblewrap from the game, it will just make it much much more powerful. Absurd.

Finally, most games at tournament level end at turn 3, so by deepstriking a unit you're removing 33% of their effective value.

How did they think this was a viable rule?

Funny enough, on the stream they indicated they made this rule to nerf alpha shooting.

My take is that their brains are in the past and they were trying to nerf plasma drops. Keep the plasma far away T1 s you can't just DS it down and nuke a target into oblivion. In true GW fashion, they just completely forgot about assault units that aren't from special 'assault' armies like Genestealers, Raven Guard and Berserkers.

Does the 50% rule apply to units in transports? It's still unclear.

 Marmatag wrote:
Does the 50% rule apply to units in transports? It's still unclear.

They did say that a transport with 3 embarked units on the table counted as 4 units for reserves purposes, IIRC. One can reasonably conclude that "in a transport that is on the battlefield" is itself "on the battlefield" after a fashion.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Kult of Speed incoming!!

Page 13 – Warboss on Warbike, Waaagh!
Change the rule to read:
‘Friendly Ork Infantry and Biker units within 6" of
this model at the start of the Charge phase can charge
even if they Advanced this turn.’

This is great for me and my evil sunz kult of speed army that I'm just starting. Still hope that the "waaagh!" ability also works on vehicles if you're kult of speed.

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from one codex to target a
unit from another?
A: Yes, so long as the unit the Stratagem is being used on
has the appropriate keywords (note that the Stratagems
in Codex: Chaos Daemons and Codex: Tyranids are specific
exceptions to this, as discussed in the relevant FAQs
and Errata).

For example, you can use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem
from Codex: Chaos Space Marines on a unit of Cultists
from a Death Guard Detachment (from Codex:
Death Guard) if your army has both an Alpha Legion
Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a
single Battle-forged army.

Also note that the only requirement to have access
to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction.

Update to the rulebook faq doc. Looks like you CAN still use stratagems from one codex, on units from another codex.

Kdash wrote:

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from one codex to target a
unit from another?
A: Yes, so long as the unit the Stratagem is being used on
has the appropriate keywords (note that the Stratagems
in Codex: Chaos Daemons and Codex: Tyranids are specific
exceptions to this, as discussed in the relevant FAQs
and Errata).

For example, you can use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem
from Codex: Chaos Space Marines on a unit of Cultists
from a Death Guard Detachment (from Codex:
Death Guard) if your army has both an Alpha Legion
Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a
single Battle-forged army.

Also note that the only requirement to have access
to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction.

Update to the rulebook faq doc. Looks like you CAN still use stratagems from one codex, on units from another codex.

With the specific exceptions of Tyranids and Daemons of course, because feth them amirite?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


With the specific exceptions of Tyranids and Daemons of course, because feth them amirite?

Not feth them. There's some solid game breaking stuff in that nugget.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Does the 50% rule apply to units in transports? It's still unclear.

They did say that a transport with 3 embarked units on the table counted as 4 units for reserves purposes, IIRC. One can reasonably conclude that "in a transport that is on the battlefield" is itself "on the battlefield" after a fashion.

Did they actually come out and say this? The wording before today was what i was referencing. The general consensus is that the locale of the embarked units is the same as the locale of the transport. But it would be nice to see something explicit since things are points based now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


With the specific exceptions of Tyranids and Daemons of course, because feth them amirite?

Not feth them. There's some solid game breaking stuff in that nugget.

Like what? With the deepstrike nerfs, there's hardly a reason for Denizens of the Warp to be restricted anymore, so I guess you can give them +1 Invuln for 2CP. *shrug* I think GK have the same thing, essentially.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Does the 50% rule apply to units in transports? It's still unclear.

They did say that a transport with 3 embarked units on the table counted as 4 units for reserves purposes, IIRC. One can reasonably conclude that "in a transport that is on the battlefield" is itself "on the battlefield" after a fashion.

Did they actually come out and say this? The wording before today was what i was referencing. The general consensus is that the locale of the embarked units is the same as the locale of the transport. But it would be nice to see something explicit since things are points based now.

Bottom of right column of Page 5 in main rulebook FAQ.

This one looks big - hurts Chaos, Eldar, Ynnari

The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on
the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance
further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot,
charge, etc.).
Q: Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in
and consolidate?
A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge
and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it
can pile in and consolidate.

Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason
e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive
Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as
Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because
of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex:
Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.

No more deep striking a unit of Shining Spears, then using Quicken on them to move them closer.

Another Eldar nerfing ruling

Q: Can units embark inside a transport in a phase other than the
Movement phase, such as when they are using the Fire and Fade
Stratagem from Codex: Craftworlds, or when a unit performs a
Soulburst action to move again?
A: No, unless the rule in question specifically states that
the unit can embark inside a Transport.

 Marmatag wrote:
Does the 50% rule apply to units in transports? It's still unclear.

the combined Power Ratings of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total Power Level, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Does the 50% rule apply to units in transports? It's still unclear.

They did say that a transport with 3 embarked units on the table counted as 4 units for reserves purposes, IIRC. One can reasonably conclude that "in a transport that is on the battlefield" is itself "on the battlefield" after a fashion.

Did they actually come out and say this? The wording before today was what i was referencing. The general consensus is that the locale of the embarked units is the same as the locale of the transport. But it would be nice to see something explicit since things are points based now.

Yes, that is now written in the Rule Book FAQ.
But on the other hand, can someone explain why the transports are not counting as units themselves? Going by their example they don't.
EDIT: Oh wait, it is 1 transport with 3 units in it. I was reading it as 3 tranports with 1 unit in it each.

Kdash wrote:
This one looks big - hurts Chaos, Eldar, Ynnari

The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on
the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance
further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot,
charge, etc.).
Q: Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in
and consolidate?
A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge
and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it
can pile in and consolidate.

Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason
e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive
Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as
Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because
of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex:
Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.

No more deep striking a unit of Shining Spears, then using Quicken on them to move them closer.

where are you seeing this??

 Marmatag wrote:

Kdash wrote:
This one looks big - hurts Chaos, Eldar, Ynnari

The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on
the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance
further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot,
charge, etc.).
Q: Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in
and consolidate?
A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge
and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it
can pile in and consolidate.

Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason
e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive
Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as
Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because
of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex:
Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.

No more deep striking a unit of Shining Spears, then using Quicken on them to move them closer.

where are you seeing this??

Page 5, main rulebook FAQ, top left column.

 Jaxler wrote:
Great to see my inquisition army is dead and my grey Knights can’t smite or deepstrike anymore...

Grey knights ignore the smite thing in the rules from what I read.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Kdash wrote:
This one looks big - hurts Chaos, Eldar, Ynnari

The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on
the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance
further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot,
charge, etc.).
Q: Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in
and consolidate?
A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge
and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it
can pile in and consolidate.

Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason
e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive
Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as
Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because
of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex:
Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.

No more deep striking a unit of Shining Spears, then using Quicken on them to move them closer.

where are you seeing this??

Page 5, main rulebook FAQ, top left column.

The english rulebook 1.2 faq update doesn't look like it's been uploaded yet. The french 1.2 version is up and those changes are in there.

Edit: Aaaaaand it looks like the english version was just uploaded.

Emissary wrote:


The english rulebook 1.2 faq update doesn't look like it's been uploaded yet. The french 1.2 version is up and those changes are in there.

It is up. Try CTRL+F5 to refresh without cache.

Emissary wrote:
The english rulebook 1.2 faq update doesn't look like it's been uploaded yet. The french 1.2 version is up and those changes are in there.

It absolutely has been uploaded. GW's notorious pants-on-headed-ness means they didn't change the date, but the FAQ is there behind the linky.

Does no one else think the new DSing rule help out speed armies a bit? I tried to make the point earlier in the thread but Daemons of Slaanesh seem to be in a better/viable spot with them being one of the few armies that can run up the board and get 1st turn charges. Before it was all turn 1 blood letter bombs everywhere.

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
Does no one else think the new DSing rule help out speed armies a bit? I tried to make the point earlier in the thread but Daemons of Slaanesh seem to be in a better/viable spot with them being one of the few armies that can run up the board and get 1st turn charges. Before it was all turn 1 blood letter bombs everywhere.

I agree in part, but i'm at a loss for what Khorne daemons and similar will do for armies. Perhaps the bomb really restricted their list variety anyway?

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
Does no one else think the new DSing rule help out speed armies a bit? I tried to make the point earlier in the thread but Daemons of Slaanesh seem to be in a better/viable spot with them being one of the few armies that can run up the board and get 1st turn charges. Before it was all turn 1 blood letter bombs everywhere.

This is going to push Tyranids towards speed builds. Kraken 'stealers just became the default 'nid build, because the other two common ones relied on (A) 7 of the same data sheet (B) three different things that got stopped. I guess someone at GW got a line of Horma's DS + Swarmy advanced into their IG tanks one too many times.

babelfish wrote:

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
Does no one else think the new DSing rule help out speed armies a bit? I tried to make the point earlier in the thread but Daemons of Slaanesh seem to be in a better/viable spot with them being one of the few armies that can run up the board and get 1st turn charges. Before it was all turn 1 blood letter bombs everywhere.

This is going to push Tyranids towards speed builds. Kraken 'stealers just became the default 'nid build, because the other two common ones relied on (A) 7 of the same data sheet (B) three different things that got stopped. I guess someone at GW got a line of Horma's DS + Swarmy advanced into their IG tanks one too many times.

I run the army you are describing. Your biggest problems will be synapse coverage, because they'll be out of range, and also losing your synapse creatures prior to your turn since they won't be DS Flyrants. If you go second you will probably lose the Swarmlord.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Holy moly - no more multiple saves.

WOW.

feth Iron Hands players huh?

Forgive for asking, but how? Most Iron Hands only get the one "Ignores Wound" roll anyway - where's the issue?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
Does no one else think the new DSing rule help out speed armies a bit? I tried to make the point earlier in the thread but Daemons of Slaanesh seem to be in a better/viable spot with them being one of the few armies that can run up the board and get 1st turn charges. Before it was all turn 1 blood letter bombs everywhere.

I agree in part, but i'm at a loss for what Khorne daemons and similar will do for armies. Perhaps the bomb really restricted their list variety anyway?

Maybe it will be less 30 bombs and more trying to find a balance? I run my Daemonettes in squads of 24 because it goes with the 6 being Slaaneshs number thing but I could easily find the right balance for maximizing the squads. Maybe they should all go down in price a little bit?

 Marmatag wrote:

babelfish wrote:

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
Does no one else think the new DSing rule help out speed armies a bit? I tried to make the point earlier in the thread but Daemons of Slaanesh seem to be in a better/viable spot with them being one of the few armies that can run up the board and get 1st turn charges. Before it was all turn 1 blood letter bombs everywhere.

This is going to push Tyranids towards speed builds. Kraken 'stealers just became the default 'nid build, because the other two common ones relied on (A) 7 of the same data sheet (B) three different things that got stopped. I guess someone at GW got a line of Horma's DS + Swarmy advanced into their IG tanks one too many times.

I run the army you are describing. Your biggest problems will be synapse coverage, because they'll be out of range, and also losing your synapse creatures prior to your turn since they won't be DS Flyrants. If you go second you will probably lose the Swarmlord.

I run the one that got super nerfed (Trygons delivering 'gants and 'stealers and Swarmy).

With Kraken, chain 40-60 'stealers to a Neurothrope/Venomthrope for 1st turn synapse then DS Swarmy second turn? Maybe a Jorgmundr battalion for sweet sweet CP and deep striking devourer 'gaunts? Exocrines like being Jorgmundr and the ignores cover warlord trait on a Neurothrope might be interesting.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Holy moly - no more multiple saves.

WOW.

feth Iron Hands players huh?

Forgive for asking, but how? Most Iron Hands only get the one "Ignores Wound" roll anyway - where's the issue?

They've got a bad Strategem, a worse Warlord Trait, and then just an okay relic. What they DID have, though, are Venerable Dreads that were even better because they had the 6+++ ability twice in a row. So at least they could make a fun, though probably overall ineffective, army. On top of that, with the Iron Resolve trait you could try and remake Smashbane.

They literally did away with all that for no good reason. At all.