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I know, we should wait and see how the meta evolves with the new changes.

But I'm just curious what people think about it at first glance or after they already discussed it elsewhere.

Of course there are people who are in between yes and no, those who would change DS to xyz. But that's not an option right now as our feedback to GW mostly revolves around keeping it or not.

I voted tentatively yes. I'm mentally working through it still though.

Lets play with it for a while before we start saying yes and no. These kinds of polls are really too early as the changes are too early to say.

This thread would be better in August, when we've actually had time to play with the beta rules. You know, beta test them.

No.

Why the feth should CC armies be penalized an entire round; which by the way, allows the enemy to move its screens foward, meaning you're that much further from the juicy targets; while shooting gets ZERO penalty?

Complete removal of CC
vs
No penalty to shooting+wider screen deployment

Feels fair man.

Yes, of course it is premature, but I'm interested in the opinions as they developed throughout the day.

I'm just really worried the change is an unecessary (huge) buff to gunlines and melee armies hot inherently worse. They have to endure even more shooting than before and gunlines can extend their screens.

It just doesn't seem balancing at all to me - more like a heavy shift to an even shootier meta

I love how the deepstrike change is just only seen as something for CC armies.

Like if the strongest armies that use deepstrike as their best tool werent actually shooting armies!

Definately too early for a poll, I play both, shooty and melee armies, and this might be a good way, since melee armies have dominated most of the games. It actually does not nerf melee armies that much, because, if the shooty list is built correctly those melee forces would be hitting screens anyway at first turn.

 Galas wrote:
I love how the deepstrike change is just only seen as something for CC armies.

Like if the strongest armies that use deepstrike as their best tool werent actually shooting armies!

I agree. Outsides of factions that had something like warptime you weren't charging, but you could unload all your guns.

 Galas wrote:
I love how the deepstrike change is just only seen as something for CC armies.

Like if the strongest armies that use deepstrike as their best tool werent actually shooting armies!

It's definitely both. That guy dropping 9 (or 18!) Obliterators won't be too happy about this either.

Yes. No more deploying directly into melee/rapid fire plasma range on turn 1. Short ranged units now have to care about the drawback of short range.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes. No more deploying directly into melee/rapid fire plasma range on turn 1. Short ranged units now have to care about the drawback of short range.

Now I'll feel less stupid for using tempestus scions without plasma and inside taurox primes!

It's a big change, but probably a good one. I think it puts some emphasis back on long range firepower and on transports (particularly for assault units), which had generally been eclipsed by the safer and generally faster deepstriking alternatives.

"How will CC work now that we can't deepstrike on turn 1 and we need to use transport to reach CC!"


I love how people complaint about how toxic the game is but then, instead of asking for a fix to the dominance of alpha strike shooting and gunlines that comes from nerfing it, people is happy with having meele just as toxic and alpha-strikey as shooting.

And then, people complaint that the game is decided by a coin flip based in who goes first.

 Galas wrote:
"How will CC work now that we can't deepstrike on turn 1 and we need to use transport to reach CC!"


I love how people complaint about how toxic the game is but then, instead of asking for a fix to the dominance of alpha strike shooting and gunlines that comes from nerfing it, people is happy with having meele just as toxic and alpha-strikey as shooting.

And then, people complaint that the game is decided by a coin flip based in who goes first.

This about sums up my feelings. It's also funny how deepstrike melee was never that reliable outside of stratagems and shenanigans, meanwhile plasma scions were ALWAYS able to lay down the hurt.

Could be a good change but nothing has been done to blunt gunline alpha strikes. It will shift the meta but probably into a more ranged favored game but cover rules are still lacking in this edition.

Some of the comments here are a bit short sighted:

Saying "just use transports" doesn't make anyone feel better. Most transports suck and are over priced taxes. When players were able to get into combat effectively without them, the whole list was drastically improved because you picked up an additional 300 points in "good stuff." You've now effectively lost that 300 points.

Also the nerf to deep strike for CC armies is two-fold. Yes the rule in-and-of-itself will push more gunlines into the meta. But when you take it in conjunction with units standing on a second floor ledge being unchargeable, or even standing on crates, why would anyone bring a CC army to a competitive game? The competitive scene will be dominated by gunlines because competitive players max/min, and gunlines are now always max, it's that simple.

I'm all for those Deepstrike beta rules - this will add more counter play besides "Just add more screens".

What it wont do though is stop turn 1 alpha strikes - those still exist. This a small stop-gap and we need to see ALL defensive options improved (ie cover rules)

I would keep the nerf, but then consolidate the anti-alpha by adding either a cover save for all units starting on the board OR add -1 to hit for any weapons firing at greater than 24". Or something along those lines to mitigate the shooty alpha.

My gut says that the deepstrike nerfs will cause more problems than they solve. Generally, I can use fodder to keep enemy deepstrikers at a distance. My options for meaningfully interacting with enemy gunlines without deepstrikers or my own gunline are more limited.

Currently, I typically don't field a lot of dark reapers, preferring to diversify with things like deepstriking fire dragons or optimistic swooping hawks/scorpions (that charge in and tie things up). These changes have me wanting to start spamming dark reapers because I know they'll be able to engage my opponent right off the bat.

Vilehydra wrote:
I would keep the nerf, but then consolidate the anti-alpha by adding either a cover save for all units starting on the board OR add -1 to hit for any weapons firing at greater than 24". Or something along those lines to mitigate the shooty alpha.

-1 to hit mechanics disporportionaly hurt units like Ork lootas way more than say Space Marine Devs. Blanket rules like to hit modifiers tend to just throw more instability into the game balance mix. A type of cover save that isnt negated by AP would help dampen long range alpha strike armies but I don't know if the core rules can make that work without it breaking at another point.

 peteralmo wrote:
Some of the comments here are a bit short sighted:

Saying "just use transports" doesn't make anyone feel better. Most transports suck and are over priced taxes. When players were able to get into combat effectively without them, the whole list was drastically improved because you picked up an additional 300 points in "good stuff." You've now effectively lost that 300 points.

Yeah, the game is so much better when nobody needs to actually move and we just put our units where we want in turn 1, roll dice, and end the game.

Gun-lines are toxic, I absolutely agree. The dominance of alpha striking shooting is toxic. I agree. But deepstriking meele armies are just as bad for the health of the game. I can't agree with that as an option. Meele units should rely on transports, or foostloging if they are hordes, something that needs a minimun of imput from the player.

I agree. This change will make inmovile gun-lines stronger. But one problem at a time.

With this DS change we fix alpha striking meele armies that don't move, and alpha striking shooting lists like Slaanesh Obliterators, Tempestus Scions with plasma spam, etc, etc... and thats a very good thing in my list of changes I wante from this FAQ.

Tentatively no. I think a more nuanced solution is in order. Truthfully, I so rarely play that it barely matters, but I’m theoretically annoyed with the proposed change.

 Galas wrote:
"How will CC work now that we can't deepstrike on turn 1 and we need to use transport to reach CC!"


I love how people complaint about how toxic the game is but then, instead of asking for a fix to the dominance of alpha strike shooting and gunlines that comes from nerfing it, people is happy with having meele just as toxic and alpha-strikey as shooting.

And then, people complaint that the game is decided by a coin flip based in who goes first.

It'd be fine if shooting had gottent the same kind of nerf. But as of right now, IG gunline are totally unaffected, and get 1 to 2 free turn to move into position before being threathen by any melee / deepstrike threat.
Leman russ spam is still possible.
Artillery still shoot as good without needing LoS.

But in exchange, at least blood angels can't charge turn 1, that's super healthy for the game and will totally not shift the meta toward IG gunline even more

No, unless 1st turn gunline Alpha is also addressed in some way.

this is just going to nerf every army that relies on DS into the ground, and make it so that guard and eldar are the top cheese and gunlines are the way to play. If you can't do a good gunline or skitter across the board in one turn, you're trash after this change. It'll effectively nerf grey knights into unplayability, slit the wrists of every viable melee build, and sucker punch chaos space marines, all armies that don't need this kinda hurt.

I was thinking about running crisis suits or vespids in my tau, but I guess I'll just throw in a third riptide now and set up camp even harder. I'll also go ahead and just leave my grey knights on the shelf, I can't even dream of doing anything useful with them on the board.

Also, the reason why people only think about this in terms of CC is because shooty armies just won't run deep strike and will take more lascannons or something that'll poke you from across the board turn one. Melee armies however lose the only gimmick that made them sorta work.

 bullyboy wrote:
No, unless 1st turn gunline Alpha is also addressed in some way.

Los blocking terrain works for that.

Avragecommisar wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
No, unless 1st turn gunline Alpha is also addressed in some way.

Los blocking terrain works for that.

So you can hide your entire army behind terrain? how about 1/2 of it?

 Jaxler wrote:

Avragecommisar wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
No, unless 1st turn gunline Alpha is also addressed in some way.

Los blocking terrain works for that.

So you can hide your entire army behind terrain? how about 1/2 of it?

And even if you get lucky and have a board where you can do that, you're still sacrificing board control and probably some VP to do so.

As A Blood Angel Player I have no problem with the beta rules.