Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't need to drop in turn one.i can she'll you from my back lines, drop in half turn 2, and then the next half turn 3 once everything is opened up from shelling and the first wave of plasma. Of if you leave your back line drop it all turn 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
People seem to forget it can be very beneficial to NOT deep strike turn one

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
A list very similar won war-zone Atalanta. So laughing at this list just makes you look stupid. This list is actually better. Trading stupid horses for 3 command russ really makes it sting.

You do realize the game has gone through some major upheavals since November, 2017?
Or are you just being disingenuous or willfully ignorant?

They had craftworld eldar and choas soup...AKA the best armies in the game. Blood angels and nids hadn't come out yet but this list is even better against those armies. Plus those armies are irreverent with the new FAQ with no ability to deep strike turn 1.

Again you can deep strike turn 2 that is a thing

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I don't need to drop in turn one.i can she'll you from my back lines, drop in half turn 2, and then the next half turn 3 once everything is opened up from shelling and the first wave of plasma. Of if you leave your back line drop it all turn 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
People seem to forget it can be very beneficial to NOT deep strike turn one

This game is about killing things. You can't kill anything while in reserve. You also can't deep strike past 90 infantry even on turn 2.

Ok guys back on topic - i'm not worried about IG killing each other.

I need help finding the hardest of BA lists that fits in the new FAQ now.

There won't be 90 infantry left on Turn 2. Guard go down like flies. I expect to lose a Baneblade and all but one squad of Guardsmen in my list Turn 1, and when I don't I count my lucky stars.

Guardsmen die in droves. 60 is not enough to screen your heavy weapons, and putting the Veterans up front to make a 90 man screen is just asking for your best anti-tank source to get melted immediately.

I could literally make your list better by saying "replace veterans with lascannon command squads". That's how bad your list is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ok guys back on topic - i'm not worried about IG killing each other.

I need help finding the hardest of BA lists that fits in the new FAQ now.

Unfortunately, it probably looks like "A BILLION DEATH COMPANY (in one squad), 3 scouts, captain doom, librarian fred" and guard for CP battery/regeneration. Add long range shooting from either army to taste.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Normally I can agree with xeno but...that's a really bad guard list. Anyone with large amounts of s4 -1 or better is going to shread that list.

Somehow these other lists with half as many infantry are going to get less shredded?

It's literally impossible to lock up Baneblades, so at least in the case of my list, my screens being almost immediately shredded doesn't matter.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
My above mentioned Scion list would eat that list alive.

How? They can't even deep strike turn 1 anymore. I took all the new FAQ into account when I made the list. What are your scions going to shoot? My infantry?

If only there were turns in the game other than Turn 1!

I guess you can divide your forces and shoot less than me and still somehow win. It's possible.

My 5 basalisks would like to heavily debate you on their ability to kill guards men.

Oh your in cover? Cool my str 9 -3 Cannon does not care. Enjoy getting shelled by 5d6 shots rerolling 1s to hit. Those russe's won't last.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I guess you can divide your forces and shoot less than me and still somehow win. It's possible.

I think the term for this is "tactics". I forget where I heard it, but I'm pretty sure that's the word.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
There won't be 90 infantry left on Turn 2. Guard go down like flies. I expect to lose a Baneblade and all but one squad of Guardsmen in my list Turn 1, and when I don't I count my lucky stars.

Guardsmen die in droves. 60 is not enough to screen your heavy weapons, and putting the Veterans up front to make a 90 man screen is just asking for your best anti-tank source to get melted immediately.

I could literally make your list better by saying "replace veterans with lascannon command squads". That's how bad your list is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ok guys back on topic - i'm not worried about IG killing each other.

I need help finding the hardest of BA lists that fits in the new FAQ now.

Unfortunately, it probably looks like "A BILLION DEATH COMPANY (in one squad), 3 scouts, captain doom, librarian fred" and guard for CP battery/regeneration. Add long range shooting from either army to taste.

Somehow losing 5 bodies and paying more points for special weapons you wont be in range to use will make the list better. Cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I guess you can divide your forces and shoot less than me and still somehow win. It's possible.

I think the term for this is "tactics". I forget where I heard it, but I'm pretty sure that's the word.

There are no tactics in this game - this game is OK coral.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
There won't be 90 infantry left on Turn 2. Guard go down like flies. I expect to lose a Baneblade and all but one squad of Guardsmen in my list Turn 1, and when I don't I count my lucky stars.

Guardsmen die in droves. 60 is not enough to screen your heavy weapons, and putting the Veterans up front to make a 90 man screen is just asking for your best anti-tank source to get melted immediately.

I could literally make your list better by saying "replace veterans with lascannon command squads". That's how bad your list is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ok guys back on topic - i'm not worried about IG killing each other.

I need help finding the hardest of BA lists that fits in the new FAQ now.

Unfortunately, it probably looks like "A BILLION DEATH COMPANY (in one squad), 3 scouts, captain doom, librarian fred" and guard for CP battery/regeneration. Add long range shooting from either army to taste.

Somehow losing 5 bodies and paying more points for special weapons you wont be in range to use will make the list better. Cool.

Losing 5 bodies doesn't matter when those 5 bodies die to a stiff breeze. And Command Squads aren't required to take special weapons, and cost exactly the same PPM as veterans.

So, wilfull ignorance it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There are no tactics in this game - this game is OK coral.

Cad Bat
CC
CC

3x infantry squads
2x infantry squads with mortars

3x hellhounds
2x mants
3x punisher LRBTs

Tallarn (whatever one lets you deepstrike a tank) supreme command
3x psychers
1x shadsword

Drive the SS into your zone to protect it from alpha and ensure LOS. Destroy enemy anti-tank with it, burn enemy close range fighting, dakka enemy hordes.

Enough dakka to punish infantry. Tanks will live until shadowsword is dead or until anti tank units are off the table. Shadwsword gets 1 turn at full shooting at least.

Chimeras are to rush forward. I don't know of a lot of lists that pack the firepower to deal with them, the lrbts and the shadowsword after getting alpha/beta's by the shadowsword so either you lose them and the lrbts/shadowsword pwn or they are pretty much free to run around flaming things to death (great for those pesky -1/-2s)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
There won't be 90 infantry left on Turn 2. Guard go down like flies. I expect to lose a Baneblade and all but one squad of Guardsmen in my list Turn 1, and when I don't I count my lucky stars.

Guardsmen die in droves. 60 is not enough to screen your heavy weapons, and putting the Veterans up front to make a 90 man screen is just asking for your best anti-tank source to get melted immediately.

I could literally make your list better by saying "replace veterans with lascannon command squads". That's how bad your list is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ok guys back on topic - i'm not worried about IG killing each other.

I need help finding the hardest of BA lists that fits in the new FAQ now.

Unfortunately, it probably looks like "A BILLION DEATH COMPANY (in one squad), 3 scouts, captain doom, librarian fred" and guard for CP battery/regeneration. Add long range shooting from either army to taste.

Somehow losing 5 bodies and paying more points for special weapons you wont be in range to use will make the list better. Cool.

Losing 5 bodies doesn't matter when those 5 bodies die to a stiff breeze. And Command Squads aren't required to take special weapons, and cost exactly the same PPM as veterans.

So, wilfull ignorance it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There are no tactics in this game - this game is OK coral.

What is shooting at my 4 point infantry and killing them so fast?

Anything with a S4 -1 profile or better

 Xenomancers wrote:
What is shooting at my 4 point infantry and killing them so fast?

The points cost doesn't matter once units are on the table. You have X number of bodies, and you can't buy more. So your question is: "What is shooting at T3/5+ bodies and killing them so fast?"

If you have to ask why T3/5+ bodies are easily killed, then you'll need help from someone more professionally qualified than I.

EDIT:
Also your veterans are 6ppm, and we're talking about swapping the veterans for CCS. Or did you concede that your list wasn't even thought out, and merely vomited forth from that unreasoning maelstrom that you call a mind?

Xeno...Unit...STAHP PLS

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Unfortunately, it probably looks like "A BILLION DEATH COMPANY (in one squad), 3 scouts, captain doom, librarian fred" and guard for CP battery/regeneration. Add long range shooting from either army to taste.

Yea the slightly illegal Adepticon BA list was IG, 9 SG, and some support, which is a far cry from the ultimate BA melee shredder. I'll do some hunting.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Xeno...Unit...STAHP PLS

Alright, I'll drop it in deference to you. My point is made.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What is shooting at my 4 point infantry and killing them so fast?

The points cost doesn't matter once units are on the table. You have X number of bodies, and you can't buy more. So your question is: "What is shooting at T3/5+ bodies and killing them so fast?"

If you have to ask why T3/5+ bodies are easily killed, then you'll need help from someone more professionally qualified than I.

EDIT:
Also your veterans are 6ppm, and we're talking about swapping the veterans for CCS. Or did you concede that your list wasn't even thought out, and merely vomited forth from that unreasoning maelstrom that you call a mind?

You tell me that my whole infantry force is going to get shredded turn 1 then say I should take even less bodies. It makes no sense.

I'll stop. I don't need to prove anything - a variation of this list already won a major event with flying colors against ynnari/aliotic/DG/Chaos soup (with unnerfed magnus). There is my proof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Xeno...Unit...STAHP PLS

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Unfortunately, it probably looks like "A BILLION DEATH COMPANY (in one squad), 3 scouts, captain doom, librarian fred" and guard for CP battery/regeneration. Add long range shooting from either army to taste.

Yea the slightly illegal Adepticon BA list was IG, 9 SG, and some support, which is a far cry from the ultimate BA melee shredder. I'll do some hunting.

The strongest Mono IG list you will face will be something like the list I posted.

With Souping we are probably looking at Custodes mixed with IG. Maybe 2 IG batalllions with 2x Jetbike Sheild Captains and as many bikes as they can fit.

In general with this rule change better lists won't bother with deep strike as a primary means of offense.

You want to be able to bring all your shooting to bear turn 1, and with solid range.

In truth i think this rule is actually so bad that they end up squatting it.

 Marmatag wrote:
In general with this rule change better lists won't bother with deep strike as a primary means of offense.

You want to be able to bring all your shooting to bear turn 1, and with solid range.

In truth i think this rule is actually so bad that they end up squatting it.

"40k is bad because of strong alpha"

*puts in a rule to nerf strong alpha*

"Wow this rule is bad, you can't strong alpha"

 Marmatag wrote:
In general with this rule change better lists won't bother with deep strike as a primary means of offense.

You want to be able to bring all your shooting to bear turn 1, and with solid range.

In truth i think this rule is actually so bad that they end up squatting it.

I don't entirely agree with this, but it's really hard to judge without putting models on the table and seeing the thought process of other players develop.

Might get to a small local tournament using all the new rules this weekend and i'll record my games.

I haven't made an IG list yet, but I'm picturing it more or less looking like 5th ed leafblower at this point.

I get you off the table turn 1, then I deal with your piddly deep strikes. I think it's going to make guard stronger than they were before.

 daedalus wrote:
I haven't made an IG list yet, but I'm picturing it more or less looking like 5th ed leafblower at this point.

I get you off the table turn 1, then I deal with your piddly deep strikes. I think it's going to make guard stronger than they were before.

I agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
In general with this rule change better lists won't bother with deep strike as a primary means of offense.

You want to be able to bring all your shooting to bear turn 1, and with solid range.

In truth i think this rule is actually so bad that they end up squatting it.

I thought that about the smite nerf too - it still went through. With a minor change - doesn't affect Tzeentch and GK...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
In general with this rule change better lists won't bother with deep strike as a primary means of offense.

You want to be able to bring all your shooting to bear turn 1, and with solid range.

In truth i think this rule is actually so bad that they end up squatting it.

"40k is bad because of strong alpha"

*puts in a rule to nerf strong alpha*

"Wow this rule is bad, you can't strong alpha"

No it's more like :
"40k is bad because of strong alpha"
"Alright, so we remove the only counter to strong shooting alpha, which is strong melee alpha"
"Yeah, cool, but what about the strong shooting alpha"
"Oh that, we'll just leave it. We like it when both army face off, dont move, and shoot the crap out of each other turn 1. What's that, you play a melee army and won't ever be able to reach melee range because the other army has too many guns and 2-3 free turn to get into position and shoot you? You just had to buy a real army, like IG. Too bad."

I have three that are all fairly nasty. I don't know if they're the nastiest I could think of, but they hurt to play at least:








I feel all of them are a little too light on infantry to really be the most backbreaking they could, but there are super heavy tanks to deter charges/charge themselves, and there a scout sentinels that can get forward and take up space as fodder, if somewhat less efficiently.

I do really appreciate that the Superheavies don't care about being charged, and can charge willy nilly themselves. Very high cool factor.

Okay! I'm going to make an entire virtual IG army of 2k points that is pire infintry and mortors!

Someone give me a list that can shut that down and I will play it 3 times against each other and tell you all the results. Not saying either is good but I want to rest this argument and get away from the maths for a second.

 lolman1c wrote:
Okay! I'm going to make an entire virtual IG army of 2k points that is pire infintry and mortors!

Someone give me a list that can shut that down and I will play it 3 times against each other and tell you all the results. Not saying either is good but I want to rest this argument and get away from the maths for a second.

2000pts of tesla immortals and annihilation barges.

VoidSempai wrote:

No it's more like :
"40k is bad because of strong alpha"
"Alright, so we remove the only counter to strong shooting alpha, which is strong melee alpha"
"Yeah, cool, but what about the strong shooting alpha"
"Oh that, we'll just leave it. We like it when both army face off, dont move, and shoot the crap out of each other turn 1. What's that, you play a melee army and won't ever be able to reach melee range because the other army has too many guns and 2-3 free turn to get into position and shoot you? You just had to buy a real army, like IG. Too bad."

Why do you equate melee and ranged as being direct counters to each other? Why are armies either ranged or melee? Why can't they be both?
I'll never understand the desire to make melee always equal to shooting. They are different. They fulfill different roles, they complement each other. Melee has drawbacks, the main one being that you need to get close, but it has pros such as locking down units. Relying on melee to do all the work is simply a bad tactical decision when guns exist.

Also shooting is low-risk moderate-reward while melee is high-risk high-reward so it's no wonder that when melee loses, it loses hard.

Now, that is not to say that I approve of shooting alpha, but the biggest way to bring that in line is to improve terrain. Without terrain tactics do not exist, even in real life. Should we get better terrain rules? Yes, and something like -1 to hit obscured targets would do wonders (while also removing army wide -1 to hits). But we should also bring obscene amounts of terrain to block most shooting. And yes, shooting out of LOS with artillery should have a penalty.

You shouldn't need an obscene amount of terrain to use melee. It should be challenging but not that much. But melee needs to be better than it is now unless I missed some huge change at some point.