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I have a question for the "OMG my army got nerfed bad with the deepstrike rule" crowd:
It seems that part of the issue is having to put half your army on the board and facing a turn or maybe two of shooting, correct?
So, how much of your army did you deploy before this rule came into play?
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
The_Real_Chris wrote: The biggest problem with an infantry heavy guard army is getting the game done in 2-3 hours. For that reason i think the higher toughness lower model count forces are more practical.
Give this man a cookie. That's why tournament results don't show the casual power of IG lists.
If guard has such a strong alpha why does this matter. It couldn’t possibly be that top players ang strong armies beat guard gunlines. Guard is powerful casually because it is easy to use, it is straight forward. But there are plenty of armies that beat guard especially if they go first which is fairly likely
Guard doesn't show up on top tables because it gets its ass handed to it by Alaitoc. All the shooting in the world doesn't amount to much when you're hitting anything even vaguely important on 6's (or worse, not able to hit the MOST important target at all).
Games not going to time is actually better for Guard because as the horde player Guard gets to monopolize as much of that time as they please (thankfully chess clocks are getting rid of that problem).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 01:47:22
Arachnofiend wrote: Guard doesn't show up on top tables because it gets its ass handed to it by Alaitoc. All the shooting in the world doesn't amount to much when you're hitting anything even vaguely important on 6's (or worse, not able to hit the MOST important target at all).
This sounds fine, but I imagine it's just conjecture. I wish I could still see the pairings for LVO.
Well, "tourney" meta is not the same as "regular" meta because of the way a "hard counter" can change not just results, but samples. Because Altioc hard counters poor BS volume of shooting ,ists, and suffers no downside (other than not being something else"oppertunity cost") whole list structures do not exist for tourney metas. The ability of "all Tyrant" lists to counter it, meant that no Eldar player tried Reaper spam...so no match ups exist.
All Tyrants also hard counters most, or all Alpha strikes, so it was very good in that meta, as terrain is very "weak" at Adepticon.
I worry that the "nurf" went too far, but it's too soon to tell. We'll just have to see...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 02:19:12
I'd be curious to know what was in that Ynnari list, if it was pure Ynnari (kind of an oxymoron but whatever) then the AM player managed to get by without fighting any Alaitoc players. I'm a little disappointed he never got matched up against the #2 Necrons list, we were talking about that one in the tactica thread and it's a pretty insane Destroyer Cult list with 3 units of destroyers and enough HQ's to buff them all up to the max. I would have liked to see how that did against what is certainly a very strong AM list.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'd be curious to know what was in that Ynnari list, if it was pure Ynnari (kind of an oxymoron but whatever) then the AM player managed to get by without fighting any Alaitoc players. I'm a little disappointed he never got matched up against the #2 Necrons list, we were talking about that one in the tactica thread and it's a pretty insane Destroyer Cult list with 3 units of destroyers and enough HQ's to buff them all up to the max. I would have liked to see how that did against what is certainly a very strong AM list.
The sheer number of Necrons is interesting.
The #2 Necron lost to Aeldari (3) and won vs AM (43), Orks (27), RG (6), and Kronos (5).
I'm making a script that extracts the players and grabs the link the their results and i'll see if I can automate the data into a table for analysis.
I'm not terribly surprised by the success of Necrons; I feel like we have the tools to beat any army except Eldar. Destroyers especially are bananas, though my impression was that you really only wanted one unit to take advantage of their stratagem; I think I can safely say I was wrong about that.
Earth127 wrote: Sorry, it seems I misread the tome of your statement. It came across a lot more negative to me.
Still in general whilst people are overly relying on averages for balance discussion. They (and simulations) are usefull tools.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also @Inquisitor katherine You shouldn't go across multiple turns because basic averages and laws of chance only apply if the rolls are independent.
Yeah, yeah, but this took 10 minutes to do in my aero controls systems lecture and conveys the point entirely adequately. The mortars wont come close to even noticeably denting the power of the tanks.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
(quite a spread, new rules, yay?)
#1 AM -- 5 wins -- faced DA, Ynarri, Raven Guard, T'au, CSM #2 Necros
#3 Aeldari
#4 Alaitoc
#5 Kronos
#6 RG #7 T'au
#8 Orks
#9 CSM #10 DE
Other AM players below. There were two losses to Ynarri (25) out of 19 losses. The second best AM player at #19 only lost to GK (17).
Spoiler:
#65
- lost to Necrons (36), Necrons (54), AC (66)
- won vs Necrons (68), Sallies (67)
#59
- lost to GK (15), Necron (35), DE (58)
- won to UM (60), DA (39)
#51
- lost to RG (6), CSM (49)
- won vs Necrons (35), Daemons (53), Necrons (54)
#50
- lost to BA (13), CSM (49)
- won vs Imperium (26), UM (55), Daemons (11)
#43
- lost to Necrons (2), Imperium (42)
- won vs Necrons (74), DA (47), DE (44)
#31
- lost to T'au (12), Ynarri (25), Orks (27)
- won vs DA (71), Chaos (28)
#29
- lost to Kronos (5), Ynarri (25), Chaos (28)
- won vs AS (64), BA (32)
#19
- lost to GK (17)
- won vs Necrons (54), CSM (49), TS (21), DE (22)
I feel it needs to be pointed out that the winning list has 665 points of actual AM units. The rest are a BA battalion with a large DC blob and a SC of Shield Captains on bike.
I was literally just about to ask if anyone had the lists of the top ten, as outside of crons, tau and orks. Who can't just go to the next codex along to cherry pick.
Faction doesn't mean much with all the soup lists that tend to make the top tables.
Spoletta wrote: You know? Seeing 9 different factions in the top 10 makes me think that after all GW knows a bit more about balancing than we give her credit for.
Not necessarily. Given GW has just changed the game in a very fundamental way the meta will be in flux.
We need to see what its like in a couple of months time.
Untill faction listings actually starts matching army composition, factions outside of Tau, Orks and Necorns are indications of nothing.
As long as I have one unit from that faction I can claim my army is that faction. It's solo purpose at the moment is allowing people to claim best in faction.
Without looking at amount of points per faction or warlord faction current listings of factions are meaningless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 10:55:27
IMO faction listings should require pure armies, then give listings based on most specific shared keyword. Points or Warlord are really indicative of nothing unless you are going to require say 75+% of the army be a specific faction or something.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 11:07:24
helgrenze wrote: I have a question for the "OMG my army got nerfed bad with the deepstrike rule" crowd:
It seems that part of the issue is having to put half your army on the board and facing a turn or maybe two of shooting, correct?
So, how much of your army did you deploy before this rule came into play?
The only army I put anything near to 50% of my point in reserve was greyknights because literally - there is no other way to play them.
Tyranids I was about 35%-40%
The rest of my armies deep strike was a nice option to have - usually less than 10% of my forces were in reserve. Like a squad of reviers - or clagar just so I could get my aura in the right place. Or a Tau commander to hit a flank.
IMO the real issue with DS was the stupid drops rule. Where players could put 94% of their points in reserve because they took 12 cheap units and hid them all over their deployment zone to DS 7 tyrants and 4 mawlocks.
(quite a spread, new rules, yay?)
#1 AM -- 5 wins -- faced DA, Ynarri, Raven Guard, T'au, CSM #2 Necros
#3 Aeldari
#4 Alaitoc
#5 Kronos
#6 RG #7 T'au
#8 Orks
#9 CSM #10 DE
Other AM players below. There were two losses to Ynarri (25) out of 19 losses. The second best AM player at #19 only lost to GK (17).
Spoiler:
#65
- lost to Necrons (36), Necrons (54), AC (66)
- won vs Necrons (68), Sallies (67)
#59
- lost to GK (15), Necron (35), DE (58)
- won to UM (60), DA (39)
#51
- lost to RG (6), CSM (49)
- won vs Necrons (35), Daemons (53), Necrons (54)
#50
- lost to BA (13), CSM (49)
- won vs Imperium (26), UM (55), Daemons (11)
#43
- lost to Necrons (2), Imperium (42)
- won vs Necrons (74), DA (47), DE (44)
#31
- lost to T'au (12), Ynarri (25), Orks (27)
- won vs DA (71), Chaos (28)
#29
- lost to Kronos (5), Ynarri (25), Chaos (28)
- won vs AS (64), BA (32)
#19
- lost to GK (17)
- won vs Necrons (54), CSM (49), TS (21), DE (22)
I feel it needs to be pointed out that the winning list has 665 points of actual AM units. The rest are a BA battalion with a large DC blob and a SC of Shield Captains on bike.
correct me if I am wrong but it appears that ravengaurd player who came in 6th place was 3-2 in the tournament. What kind of joke scoring is this?
Any information on the AM list that went undefeated?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/01 12:42:17
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
basicly the last 2 rounds were per 8 players. that's why the 9th ranked player has all wins. He just didn't rank in the top at the end of round 2. Interesting system, pretty generours price wise across the participation roster.
Yeah, as strong as gaurd is they should just list stuff soup. Guard has strength but soup can be almost unbeatable (especially when girly man used to buff everything.
Ordana wrote: Any mixed army, or with more then 25% points spend on a different faction should just be called Imperium/Chaos/ect
Meh to me I would still go with most specific keyword. But they don't seem to want to give up that many "awards". To me BA + Dark Angels should be an Adeptus Astartes list, not imperium, but BA + guard is imperium.
I feel it needs to be pointed out that the winning list has 665 points of actual AM units. The rest are a BA battalion with a large DC blob and a SC of Shield Captains on bike.
That seems odd as it isn't listed as Imperium like some others. Does anyone have the actual list?
basicly the last 2 rounds were per 8 players. that's why the 9th ranked player has all wins. He just didn't rank in the top at the end of round 2. Interesting system, pretty generours price wise across the participation roster.
Ahh and I see - and 3 hour rounds too. A much more realistic amount of time than 2 1/2 hours.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: LOL @ "665 points of guard at 2k makes it a guard list."
Stronk hyperbole.
I agree that isn't a guard list. They should just calling these armies imperial soup - that's what it is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 13:55:00
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Unit1126PLL wrote: LOL @ "665 points of guard at 2k makes it a guard list."
Stronk hyperbole.
I agree that isn't a guard list. They should just calling these armies imperial soup - that's what it is.
Not that it matters, but I'd still like to see hard evidence that it is a soup list. There are several other players in that tournament listed as Imperium, Chaos, and Aeldari. I don't see a reason why they would treat this player differently.
I also recall the last tournament someone made a claim that wasn't true, so...
I feel it needs to be pointed out that the winning list has 665 points of actual AM units. The rest are a BA battalion with a large DC blob and a SC of Shield Captains on bike.
That seems odd as it isn't listed as Imperium like some others. Does anyone have the actual list?
Cadian Brigade: 665 points
2 CC, no upgrades (one with RoLC, other is warlord with KA and Grand Strategist)
1 Primaris Pysker, force stave(Night Shroud, Psychic Barrier)
6 IS (4 with mortar teams)
3 Platoon Commanders, no upgrades
1 5 man Roughriders, no upgrades
2 Scout Sentinels, no upgrades
3 HWS, all mortars
BA Battalion
2 JP Captains, TH/SS (one with Veritas Vitae, other with Angels Wing)
Mephiston(Quicken, Unleash Rage, Wings of Sanguinius)
3 5 man Scouts, no upgrades
1 8 man JPDC, no upgrades
Custodes Supreme Command
3 Shield Captains on bike, hurricane bolted and misericordia (one with Auric Aquilis)
Man I can't wait for spacewolves to come out and every imperial soup army has a cheap gaurd brigade 3 wolf lords 3 sheild capatains. This is some quality stuff right here GW.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/01 15:12:59
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I feel it needs to be pointed out that the winning list has 665 points of actual AM units. The rest are a BA battalion with a large DC blob and a SC of Shield Captains on bike.
That seems odd as it isn't listed as Imperium like some others. Does anyone have the actual list?
Cadian Brigade: 665 points
2 CC, no upgrades (one with RoLC, other is warlord with KA and Grand Strategist)
1 Primaris Pysker, force stave(Night Shroud, Psychic Barrier)
6 IS (4 with mortar teams)
3 Platoon Commanders, no upgrades
1 5 man Roughriders, no upgrades
2 Scout Sentinels, no upgrades
3 HWS, all mortars
BA Battalion
2 JP Captains, TH/SS (one with Veritas Vitae, other with Angels Wing)
Mephiston(Quicken, Unleash Rage, Wings of Sanguinius)
3 5 man Scouts, no upgrades
1 8 man JPDC, no upgrades
Custodes Supreme Command
3 Shield Captains on bike, hurricane bolted and misericordia (one with Auric Aquilis)
Transcribed from BCP as the original list was submitted as a picture. Funny fact, this list spends 7 CP on extra relics.
Edit: autocorrect fail
That is greatly appreciated. It's very weird that they didn't list it as soup.
So, that raises a new question - how much of a role did relics play in this list? The bsIGCP generation would more than make up for the CP relic spend.
Quite an interesting army. I need to chew on this one for a bit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 15:15:55
