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 helgrenze wrote:
I have a question for the "OMG my army got nerfed bad with the deepstrike rule" crowd:

It seems that part of the issue is having to put half your army on the board and facing a turn or maybe two of shooting, correct?

So, how much of your army did you deploy before this rule came into play?

You are absolutely correct.

With scouts & screens, I can actually deal MORE damage faster by having my models start on the table. I choose not to because they'll die immediately.

My previous 2k list featured, in deep strike:

Flying Hive Tyrant /w MRC + Twin Devourers (Warlord)
Flying Hive Tyrant /w MRC + Twin Devourers
Trygon /w base loadout
~30x Devourer Termagants (in tunnels)
Ripper Swarm

Pre-nerf that total is about 820 points. Post-nerf it's a bit higher.

I should also add that my list is balanced and only runs 2 Flying Hive Tyrants. Although, now that they've been nerfed and deep strike sucks, i will probably only run 1, if that.

Synapse is a major issue for Tyranids if you don't have something that can cover it. The ability to deep strike for me was keeping them alive but also being able to provide forward synapse beacons for my assault forces. Yes Genestealers can race across the board but if you're outside synapse range the whole squad crumbles and you've lost a huge chunk of points.

I am reinventing my army as a gunline. It is the only way to play.

 Marmatag wrote:


I am reinventing my army as a gunline. It is the only way to play.

The Imperium soup list shown opposite is literally not a gunline. It's biggest damage dealers are melee - mostly deepstrike. It has no implicit anti-tank. There are some other shenanigans going on there, but not enough to be the sole reason for it's success.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


I am reinventing my army as a gunline. It is the only way to play.

The Imperium soup list shown opposite is literally not a gunline. It's biggest damage dealers are melee - mostly deepstrike. It has no implicit anti-tank. There are some other shenanigans going on there, but not enough to be the sole reason for it's success.

The 3rd place list is built around 3 full units of Shining Spears. 4th place has about 500 points in Succubi, wyches, and reavers. 9th place has what looks like a bloodletter bomb (30 man squad) plus 30 plague bearers and 3 CC Dps (One each of Khorne, Slannesh, and Tzeentch). This list was also undefeated, but ranked low do to the scoring system.

3 of the top 9 ( Tyranid, tau, necron) have basically all of their power in long range shooting. The rest have significant portions of their lists in CC oriented units, or very short range shooting that does not fit the definition of a standard "gunline".

Freezerassasin wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


I am reinventing my army as a gunline. It is the only way to play.

The Imperium soup list shown opposite is literally not a gunline. It's biggest damage dealers are melee - mostly deepstrike. It has no implicit anti-tank. There are some other shenanigans going on there, but not enough to be the sole reason for it's success.

The 3rd place list is built around 3 full units of Shining Spears. 4th place has about 500 points in Succubi, wyches, and reavers. 9th place has what looks like a bloodletter bomb (30 man squad) plus 30 plague bearers and 3 CC Dps (One each of Khorne, Slannesh, and Tzeentch). This list was also undefeated, but ranked low do to the scoring system.

3 of the top 9 ( Tyranid, tau, necron) have basically all of their power in long range shooting. The rest have significant portions of their lists in CC oriented units, or very short range shooting that does not fit the definition of a standard "gunline".

Thanks - this is available as a subscriber on the phone app, right?

So the argument here is that Guard is Evil and Awful and we should all be mad at them, but I have yet to see any pure guard army (or even 75% guard army) place in the top 10 of anything. All the wins are using a guard brigade to snag some CPs. At this point in time Guard are the big bad boogey men who are catching all the blame for everything bad in the game despite not making any waves on their own. I guess this is how playing non-Triple Riptide Tau felt last edition =P

Frankly it makes me sad that this is the issue, and there could be some sort of rule to fix this. Some sort of limitation based on how you have mixed up your army and what happens to your choices. Kind of like in AoS when you mix and match you are stuck with the generic Order/Chaos/Death/Destruction general abilities and relics, and have no access to army specific ones. I would like to see in the next Chapter approved (especially with the majority of army books out at that point) a restriction along those lines. I.E. if you take an imperial soup list (maybe something along the lines of a % of your army must come from one book to qualify) then you only have access to a specific list of generic stratagems and relics. Alternatively, and easier to implement, a CP tax of 1 for any Stratagems you use that are not part of your main army.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Freezerassasin wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


I am reinventing my army as a gunline. It is the only way to play.

The Imperium soup list shown opposite is literally not a gunline. It's biggest damage dealers are melee - mostly deepstrike. It has no implicit anti-tank. There are some other shenanigans going on there, but not enough to be the sole reason for it's success.

The 3rd place list is built around 3 full units of Shining Spears. 4th place has about 500 points in Succubi, wyches, and reavers. 9th place has what looks like a bloodletter bomb (30 man squad) plus 30 plague bearers and 3 CC Dps (One each of Khorne, Slannesh, and Tzeentch). This list was also undefeated, but ranked low do to the scoring system.

3 of the top 9 ( Tyranid, tau, necron) have basically all of their power in long range shooting. The rest have significant portions of their lists in CC oriented units, or very short range shooting that does not fit the definition of a standard "gunline".

Thanks - this is available as a subscriber on the phone app, right?

Yup, sure is

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So the argument here is that Guard is Evil and Awful and we should all be mad at them, but I have yet to see any pure guard army (or even 75% guard army) place in the top 10 of anything. All the wins are using a guard brigade to snag some CPs. At this point in time Guard are the big bad boogey men who are catching all the blame for everything bad in the game despite not making any waves on their own. I guess this is how playing non-Triple Riptide Tau felt last edition =P

Frankly it makes me sad that this is the issue, and there could be some sort of rule to fix this. Some sort of limitation based on how you have mixed up your army and what happens to your choices. Kind of like in AoS when you mix and match you are stuck with the generic Order/Chaos/Death/Destruction general abilities and relics, and have no access to army specific ones. I would like to see in the next Chapter approved (especially with the majority of army books out at that point) a restriction along those lines. I.E. if you take an imperial soup list (maybe something along the lines of a % of your army must come from one book to qualify) then you only have access to a specific list of generic stratagems and relics. Alternatively, and easier to implement, a CP tax of 1 for any Stratagems you use that are not part of your main army.

The problem now seams to be that this goes against GW and ITC's vision of the future of 8th edition. (I'm not saying ITC had a hand in GW's decision I just think they're probably being given more insider information that players will ever see so have got on board with GW's decision.

Guards biggest issue is a casual guard list is running about an 7-8 out of 10 for damager per point efficiency. Most casual lists outside of alitoc are running at between 3-7. As a pure faction vrs pure faction they are incredibly strong.

The reason they arn't placing top at a tournament is there is no disadvantage to souping in BA or custards to run an imperial soup list which hits about a 9.5 out of 10 for damage per point.

Welcome to 40k soup edition.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So the argument here is that Guard is Evil and Awful and we should all be mad at them, but I have yet to see any pure guard army (or even 75% guard army) place in the top 10 of anything. All the wins are using a guard brigade to snag some CPs. At this point in time Guard are the big bad boogey men who are catching all the blame for everything bad in the game despite not making any waves on their own. I guess this is how playing non-Triple Riptide Tau felt last edition =P

Frankly it makes me sad that this is the issue, and there could be some sort of rule to fix this. Some sort of limitation based on how you have mixed up your army and what happens to your choices. Kind of like in AoS when you mix and match you are stuck with the generic Order/Chaos/Death/Destruction general abilities and relics, and have no access to army specific ones. I would like to see in the next Chapter approved (especially with the majority of army books out at that point) a restriction along those lines. I.E. if you take an imperial soup list (maybe something along the lines of a % of your army must come from one book to qualify) then you only have access to a specific list of generic stratagems and relics. Alternatively, and easier to implement, a CP tax of 1 for any Stratagems you use that are not part of your main army.

Well, the intent of the thread was to get to the bottom of why people keep using IG Gunlines as a battering ram for why things don't work. And as we can see - it seems no one is taking them as such. I'm currently going through all the lists in this tournament to see if I can find one.

The #19 player was 50/50 Melee Catachan/Custard. Mortar spam, Harker, Yarrick, Straken, Priest, Custard Bikes, etc.

Kill mortars as they are for points and you might see IG get abused less coincidentally. The mortars are basically doing the chaff clearing for the melee to break through.

Astra Militarum is a carnival of undercosted nonsense. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest they won a larger tournament, and every imperium list you see is enabled by guard.

Yawn. Kronos had a showing because, like i said, the only way to play Tyranids at the moment is essentially as a gunline. I'll still run genestealers because they're solid, but your primary plan is to outshoot people.

Here's your gunline IG, I guess. 3 superheavies, PG, and mortars.

Lost to Necrons (2) and the destroyers list badly 35 to 6.
Beat Necrons (74) - 34 to 6. This guy took a Monolith and nothing else to get shot. No destroyers, arks, etc. Just Infantry, Spyders, and Scarabs.
Beat DA (47) - 23 to 16. Intercessors, Hellblasters, 2 Repulsors, 3 Shield Captains on Bikes.
Lost to Imperium (42) - 30 to 26. Mortars, Scions, Scout Sentinels, and Custard Bikes
Beat DE (44) - 29 to 23. No list available.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Astra Militarum is a carnival of undercosted nonsense. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest they won a larger tournament, and every imperium list you see is enabled by guard.

Yawn. Kronos had a showing because, like i said, the only way to play Tyranids at the moment is essentially as a gunline. I'll still run genestealers because they're solid, but your primary plan is to outshoot people.

I think people need to plan for Mortars & Custard Bikes. That seems to be the most common theme. Be durable enough so mortars can't scratch you and find a way to handle the bikes.

Here's the fabled IG Gunline.

#31

3 TC, BC/LC/Plasma
4 IS, Mortar
3 LR Conquerors, LC
1 Manticore

BA Jump Captain
Mephiston
3 Scout Squads

Beat DA (71) - 29 to 11.
Lost to Tau (12) - 25 to 24.
Beat Chaos (28) - 34 to 14.
Lost to Ynarri (25) - 24 to 11.
Lost to Orks (27) - 24 to 22.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So the argument here is that Guard is Evil and Awful and we should all be mad at them, but I have yet to see any pure guard army (or even 75% guard army) place in the top 10 of anything. All the wins are using a guard brigade to snag some CPs. At this point in time Guard are the big bad boogey men who are catching all the blame for everything bad in the game despite not making any waves on their own. I guess this is how playing non-Triple Riptide Tau felt last edition =P

Frankly it makes me sad that this is the issue, and there could be some sort of rule to fix this. Some sort of limitation based on how you have mixed up your army and what happens to your choices. Kind of like in AoS when you mix and match you are stuck with the generic Order/Chaos/Death/Destruction general abilities and relics, and have no access to army specific ones. I would like to see in the next Chapter approved (especially with the majority of army books out at that point) a restriction along those lines. I.E. if you take an imperial soup list (maybe something along the lines of a % of your army must come from one book to qualify) then you only have access to a specific list of generic stratagems and relics. Alternatively, and easier to implement, a CP tax of 1 for any Stratagems you use that are not part of your main army.

Well, the intent of the thread was to get to the bottom of why people keep using IG Gunlines as a battering ram for why things don't work. And as we can see - it seems no one is taking them as such. I'm currently going through all the lists in this tournament to see if I can find one.

The #19 player was 50/50 Melee Catachan/Custard. Mortar spam, Harker, Yarrick, Straken, Priest, Custard Bikes, etc.

Kill mortars as they are for points and you might see IG get abused less coincidentally. The mortars are basically doing the chaff clearing for the melee to break through.

I can agree with mortars, they need to go up 5 points at least, if not more. I am also in the camp of the Infantry Squad Guardsman being 5 points instead of 4. It would be in line with other pricing and it would also do well to align the costs of core guardsman units with Conscripts at 4, Guardsman at 5, and Veterans at 6.

I think one of the core problems with this edition is not rewarding or penalizing players enough to take a single army list. They really should have SOMETHING for taking a pure list, as there is currently no reason to not cherry pick your favorite units into several detachments.

So it seems like nothing has changed in the effectiveness of guard. Guard is unable to win tournaments as a mono faction codex but get called "broken" over and over for being nothing but CP generation and some cheap bodies for other imperium codexes.

Asmodios wrote:
So it seems like nothing has changed in the effectiveness of guard. Guard is unable to win tournaments as a mono faction codex but get called "broken" over and over for being nothing but CP generation and some cheap bodies for other imperium codexes.

Im kind of surprised myself, all this gloom and doom has been about how powerful the guard are, and how their gunlines invalidate everything. and I haven't even seen a multi-regiment build get any sort of placing (which I honestly thought was going to be a thing, like taking Catachan tanks, Valhallan conscripts, and Cadian Heavy Weapons, but that has yet to appear it seems). From most things I have seen guard are there for the CPs and then shielding powerful melee characters such as shield captains. Granted Mortars do their fair share of heavy lifting but its still not what guard ARE, which is waves of disposable men backed up by artillery and armor, hoping to take a point and as many casualties as possible. Then again you can argue they are being fluffy by providing meat shields for the Astartes who come to steal all the glory.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
So it seems like nothing has changed in the effectiveness of guard. Guard is unable to win tournaments as a mono faction codex but get called "broken" over and over for being nothing but CP generation and some cheap bodies for other imperium codexes.

Im kind of surprised myself, all this gloom and doom has been about how powerful the guard are, and how their gunlines invalidate everything. and I haven't even seen a multi-regiment build get any sort of placing (which I honestly thought was going to be a thing, like taking Catachan tanks, Valhallan conscripts, and Cadian Heavy Weapons, but that has yet to appear it seems). From most things I have seen guard are there for the CPs and then shielding powerful melee characters such as shield captains. Granted Mortars do their fair share of heavy lifting but its still not what guard ARE, which is waves of disposable men backed up by artillery and armor, hoping to take a point and as many casualties as possible. Then again you can argue they are being fluffy by providing meat shields for the Astartes who come to steal all the glory.

I argue they are doing exactly what we see them doing in most fluff (dying spectacularly until other imperium units come in and do the heavy lifting). What I really can stand is the constant panic about the fabled imperial guard gun line that cant be beaten and the constant fear that an all-guard army could win a tournament. I think it would be great to see an all guard list win every once in a while.... like I would like every army to do so.

Asmodios wrote:
So it seems like nothing has changed in the effectiveness of guard. Guard is unable to win tournaments as a mono faction codex but get called "broken" over and over for being nothing but CP generation and some cheap bodies for other imperium codexes.

Well, few people seem to take pure guard without being a hammy superheavy or artillery list. Both of those when skewed too far will have a seriously hard time.

If people took one superheavy instead of 3, some melee that can guard well, and the other huge range of tools they might see success.

As it stands the parts of IG that get used in soup ARE broken to an extent (I wont assign a degree). That's why they are so commonly used. And their skew lists could be broken with proper matchups, which is why there are so many complaints.

Asmodios wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
So it seems like nothing has changed in the effectiveness of guard. Guard is unable to win tournaments as a mono faction codex but get called "broken" over and over for being nothing but CP generation and some cheap bodies for other imperium codexes.

Im kind of surprised myself, all this gloom and doom has been about how powerful the guard are, and how their gunlines invalidate everything. and I haven't even seen a multi-regiment build get any sort of placing (which I honestly thought was going to be a thing, like taking Catachan tanks, Valhallan conscripts, and Cadian Heavy Weapons, but that has yet to appear it seems). From most things I have seen guard are there for the CPs and then shielding powerful melee characters such as shield captains. Granted Mortars do their fair share of heavy lifting but its still not what guard ARE, which is waves of disposable men backed up by artillery and armor, hoping to take a point and as many casualties as possible. Then again you can argue they are being fluffy by providing meat shields for the Astartes who come to steal all the glory.

I argue they are doing exactly what we see them doing in most fluff (dying spectacularly until other imperium units come in and do the heavy lifting). What I really can stand is the constant panic about the fabled imperial guard gun line that cant be beaten and the constant fear that an all-guard army could win a tournament. I think it would be great to see an all guard list win every once in a while.... like I would like every army to do so.

As long as eldar and the soup lists can dish out an array of rule bending and silly combinations pure guard will never have a place, just like you will never see pure AdMech or pure Daemons do anything. I would love to see pure lists get some sort of boost (or soup lists get a penalty) and therefore give those lists a chance when they are only using units from their own codex and working with that handicap.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
So it seems like nothing has changed in the effectiveness of guard. Guard is unable to win tournaments as a mono faction codex but get called "broken" over and over for being nothing but CP generation and some cheap bodies for other imperium codexes.

Well, few people seem to take pure guard without being a hammy superheavy or artillery list. Both of those when skewed too far will have a seriously hard time.

If people took one superheavy instead of 3, some melee that can guard well, and the other huge range of tools they might see success.

As it stands the parts of IG that get used in soup ARE broken to an extent (I wont assign a degree). That's why they are so commonly used. And their skew lists could be broken with proper matchups, which is why there are so many complaints.

Once again your post shows the hilarious bias on DAKKA
>soup army is broken
>blame guard
>rest of soup if fine
Why is it that when there is a 2k point list with only 600 points of guard only the guard part is broken? They really just need to make it so that you cant use army x CP on army y strategems and this whole issue goes away

Asmodios wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
So it seems like nothing has changed in the effectiveness of guard. Guard is unable to win tournaments as a mono faction codex but get called "broken" over and over for being nothing but CP generation and some cheap bodies for other imperium codexes.

Well, few people seem to take pure guard without being a hammy superheavy or artillery list. Both of those when skewed too far will have a seriously hard time.

If people took one superheavy instead of 3, some melee that can guard well, and the other huge range of tools they might see success.

As it stands the parts of IG that get used in soup ARE broken to an extent (I wont assign a degree). That's why they are so commonly used. And their skew lists could be broken with proper matchups, which is why there are so many complaints.

Once again your post shows the hilarious bias on DAKKA
>soup army is broken
>blame guard
>rest of soup if fine
Why is it that when there is a 2k point list with only 600 points of guard only the guard part is broken? They really just need to make it so that you cant use army x CP on army y strategems and this whole issue goes away

What he said x100. If we levied a CP "tax" of 1 or more onto using a stratagem that was not your "core" Army that would help a lot of these issues

Asmodios wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
So it seems like nothing has changed in the effectiveness of guard. Guard is unable to win tournaments as a mono faction codex but get called "broken" over and over for being nothing but CP generation and some cheap bodies for other imperium codexes.

Well, few people seem to take pure guard without being a hammy superheavy or artillery list. Both of those when skewed too far will have a seriously hard time.

If people took one superheavy instead of 3, some melee that can guard well, and the other huge range of tools they might see success.

As it stands the parts of IG that get used in soup ARE broken to an extent (I wont assign a degree). That's why they are so commonly used. And their skew lists could be broken with proper matchups, which is why there are so many complaints.

Once again your post shows the hilarious bias on DAKKA
>soup army is broken
>blame guard
>rest of soup if fine
Why is it that when there is a 2k point list with only 600 points of guard only the guard part is broken? They really just need to make it so that you cant use army x CP on army y strategems and this whole issue goes away

Where did I say that the other part of the army wasn't a problem?

Is there no reason why everyone takes mortars or is that just a fluke?
Is there no reason why RoLC and Kurov gets taken or is that just a fluke, too?

Yes some of those things are "just CP" batteries. That doesn't mean they're not a problem. And that doesn't mean IG needs a direct nerf to solve the problem.

The single biggest chance to reduce Guard soup without hurting pure guard armies?
Nerf Grand Strategist to 1 6+ roll per Stratagem. instead of 1 5+ per CP.

You can make IG squads cost 100 points and take no heavy weapons and people will still run a guard detachment simply because no other army in the game can come close to the effect of Grand Strategist and Kurov's Aquila.

Combine that with CP intensive armies like BA and you have the apparent current top Imperial army.

This is not to say that I do not believe some (maybe many) units in the Guard army are undercosted but the root of IG soup is the CP battery.

Guardsmen are clearly better than a 4 pt model. The only question is whether they are 5 or 6.

Martel732 wrote:
Guardsmen are clearly better than a 4 pt model. The only question is whether they are 5 or 6.

With skitarii rangers being 7 points, Tau FW at 7 pts and Ork boyz at 6 pts, Guardsmen at 6 points is too much. I'd stick them at 5 ppm and adjust any other infantry around them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Freezerassasin wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Freezerassasin wrote:


I feel it needs to be pointed out that the winning list has 665 points of actual AM units. The rest are a BA battalion with a large DC blob and a SC of Shield Captains on bike.

That seems odd as it isn't listed as Imperium like some others. Does anyone have the actual list?

Cadian Brigade: 665 points
2 CC, no upgrades (one with RoLC, other is warlord with KA and Grand Strategist)
1 Primaris Pysker, force stave(Night Shroud, Psychic Barrier)

6 IS (4 with mortar teams)

3 Platoon Commanders, no upgrades

1 5 man Roughriders, no upgrades
2 Scout Sentinels, no upgrades

3 HWS, all mortars

BA Battalion

2 JP Captains, TH/SS (one with Veritas Vitae, other with Angels Wing)
Mephiston(Quicken, Unleash Rage, Wings of Sanguinius)

3 5 man Scouts, no upgrades

1 8 man JP DC, no upgrades

Custodes Supreme Command

3 Shield Captains on bike, hurricane bolted and misericordia (one with Auric Aquilis)

1 Vexilus Praetor, Storm Shield, Vexila Defensor, Fulminarus Aggressor


Transcribed from BCP as the original list was submitted as a picture. Funny fact, this list spends 7 CP on extra relics.

Edit: autocorrect fail

That is greatly appreciated. It's very weird that they didn't list it as soup.

So, that raises a new question - how much of a role did relics play in this list? The bs IG CP generation would more than make up for the CP relic spend.

Quite an interesting army. I need to chew on this one for a bit.

The BA are very CP hungry. A single captain can use up to 7 CP per turn (Deepstrike redeploy, 3d6 charge, d3 extra attacks and fight twice). The DC need another 2 CP before the game to get a free move up.
Pregame both captains likely take Death Visions (+1 attack, ignore wounds on 6) for another CP each,
The Custodes can take a free re-roll per turn per model for 2 CP each

The CP battery is the heart of the army that makes it work over multiple turns. Hence why he also brought a second CP regain in the BA Veritas Vitae. He can actually gain CP from using stratagems.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
So it seems like nothing has changed in the effectiveness of guard. Guard is unable to win tournaments as a mono faction codex but get called "broken" over and over for being nothing but CP generation and some cheap bodies for other imperium codexes.

Well, few people seem to take pure guard without being a hammy superheavy or artillery list. Both of those when skewed too far will have a seriously hard time.

If people took one superheavy instead of 3, some melee that can guard well, and the other huge range of tools they might see success.

As it stands the parts of IG that get used in soup ARE broken to an extent (I wont assign a degree). That's why they are so commonly used. And their skew lists could be broken with proper matchups, which is why there are so many complaints.

Once again your post shows the hilarious bias on DAKKA
>soup army is broken
>blame guard
>rest of soup if fine
Why is it that when there is a 2k point list with only 600 points of guard only the guard part is broken? They really just need to make it so that you cant use army x CP on army y strategems and this whole issue goes away

Where did I say that the other part of the army wasn't a problem?

Is there no reason why everyone takes mortars or is that just a fluke?
Is there no reason why RoLC and Kurov gets taken or is that just a fluke, too?

Yes some of those things are "just CP" batteries. That doesn't mean they're not a problem. And that doesn't mean IG needs a direct nerf to solve the problem.

Everything you named isnt broken its simply the cheapest way to generate CP for other imperium armies. You see mortars in every list because its cheap to complete battalions and you see CP generating items because its more CP to use on other imperial armies. Like I said simply make it so you cant use CP on other parts of your army and problem is solved instantly.

A simple rule limiting CP's and CP's generated to the factions or specific detachments that generated them would solve a lot of problems.

Asmodios wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
So it seems like nothing has changed in the effectiveness of guard. Guard is unable to win tournaments as a mono faction codex but get called "broken" over and over for being nothing but CP generation and some cheap bodies for other imperium codexes.

Well, few people seem to take pure guard without being a hammy superheavy or artillery list. Both of those when skewed too far will have a seriously hard time.

If people took one superheavy instead of 3, some melee that can guard well, and the other huge range of tools they might see success.

As it stands the parts of IG that get used in soup ARE broken to an extent (I wont assign a degree). That's why they are so commonly used. And their skew lists could be broken with proper matchups, which is why there are so many complaints.

Once again your post shows the hilarious bias on DAKKA
>soup army is broken
>blame guard
>rest of soup if fine
Why is it that when there is a 2k point list with only 600 points of guard only the guard part is broken? They really just need to make it so that you cant use army x CP on army y strategems and this whole issue goes away

Where did I say that the other part of the army wasn't a problem?

Is there no reason why everyone takes mortars or is that just a fluke?
Is there no reason why RoLC and Kurov gets taken or is that just a fluke, too?

Yes some of those things are "just CP" batteries. That doesn't mean they're not a problem. And that doesn't mean IG needs a direct nerf to solve the problem.

Everything you named isnt broken its simply the cheapest way to generate CP for other imperium armies. You see mortars in every list because its cheap to complete battalions and you see CP generating items because its more CP to use on other imperial armies. Like I said simply make it so you cant use CP on other parts of your army and problem is solved instantly.

Mortars are pretty excellent for the price though, so it isn't like they're an actual tax to bring.

 Vaktathi wrote:
A simple rule limiting CP's and CP's generated to the factions or specific detachments that generated them would solve a lot of problems.

Basically this - let players soup all they like, but you can only spend CP within the faction that generates it. That way taking army X solely as a CP generator to make army Y extremely stronger just plain goes away.

Dandelion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Guardsmen are clearly better than a 4 pt model. The only question is whether they are 5 or 6.

With skitarii rangers being 7 points, Tau FW at 7 pts and Ork boyz at 6 pts, Guardsmen at 6 points is too much. I'd stick them at 5 ppm and adjust any other infantry around them.

Yeah, at this point with the points of everything else going down, Guardsmen are at best a 5 point model. Heck, just nerf mortars with a +5 point cost and a -1 for out of los firing and at this point I think the dex would be fine.

I do think the boogieman guard gunline is a strawman and suffers a lot from Shroedinger's Syndrome, where a given army has any tool it needs to counter any tactic used against them - everything from a table full of LOS blocking terrain (so manticores can be good) to a table without any LOS blocking terrain (so Russes can be good), conscripts/infantry squads who are simultaneously in rapid-fire with every model while spreading out enough to be an impenetrable screen, etc. etc.

Guard do have all the tools, but they can't bring them in the same army because of points limits, or if they do then the army becomes a balanced army, with some artillery, some russes, some infantry, some bullgryns/crusaders, some heavy weapons, etc etc.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I do think the boogieman guard gunline is a strawman and suffers a lot from Shroedinger's Syndrome, where a given army has any tool it needs to counter any tactic used against them - everything from a table full of LOS blocking terrain (so manticores can be good) to a table without any LOS blocking terrain (so Russes can be good), conscripts/infantry squads who are simultaneously in rapid-fire with every model while spreading out enough to be an impenetrable screen, etc. etc.

Guard do have all the tools, but they can't bring them in the same army because of points limits, or if they do then the army becomes a balanced army, with some artillery, some russes, some infantry, some bullgryns/crusaders, some heavy weapons, etc etc.

Right. In some other thread I tried to actually pin down what someone was saying would sweep the meta and destroy everything, and they mentioned at least 90 infantry, the tank-killing superheavy, and tons of basilisks and mortars, but when you add it up to 2000pts, you get an army that's not nearly as impossible to beat as is generally alleged. "oh, so tons of basilisks actually means "four" in this context, because that's what you can actually fit in 2000pts? and they don't actually do that much damage?"

ONe thing i have found counters guard, is anything that gives them a -1 to hit.

ALL THE SHOOTING IN THE WORLD!

iiiity bitty hit chance.

IIRC at tournaments you see them loosing to atioc all the time.