| Author |
Message |
 |
|
|
|
|
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
2018/05/02 14:11:40
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
|
 Backspacehacker wrote:ONe thing i have found counters guard, is anything that gives them a -1 to hit.
ALL THE SHOOTING IN THE WORLD!
iiiity bitty hit chance.
IIRC at tournaments you see them loosing to atioc all the time.
Any time you point out a thing that a marine army can do to counter-build against a highly skewed across the table gunline, The Usual Suspects will just respond with "Yeah well, what about the marine builds that don't counter that form of skew? What are they supposed to do? Why can't I take units that have a disadvantage against gunline skew and have them do well, huh, what kind of fair is that?"
I've currently got a 300-page list dump for an upcoming london GT, and it is highly evident looking through it that we are NOT seeing an emerging pure gunline meta. This is before the tournament happens, so I'm just looking at every list without being able to sort by "who won" the actual meta is looking to be about:
33% Overwhelmingly Shooty (i.e. less than 500pts spent on melee units)
42% Mixed (more than 500pts spent on shooting and melee units)
25% Overwhelmingly Stabby (i.e. less than 500pts spent on shooting units)
Almost all Imperial and Eldar Soup lists trend towards about 500-700 points of melee support, 1300-1500 shooting. Nids lists (with GSC/Brood Bros factored in), Drukhari lists, and Chaos Soup lists tend towards the opposite, 500-700 points of efficient downrange shooting supporting 1300-1500 points of melee units. Tau, Necron, and Single Pure Imperial Faction lists trend towards being the purest shooters, with GK and BA being the exception for imperials and Admech mostly falling into the Mixed category with almost every list featuring 500-700 points of Goonsquad+Electropriests. Daemons, Thousand Sons, the few Harlequins and Orks seem to be the purest punchers, with most having only nominal shooting.
Imperial Soup, Eldar Soup, and Chaos soup are still the 500-pound gorillas by numbers of entries, and unsurprisingly, the least common factions are all the indexes+ GK.
|
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
|
|
 |
|
2018/05/02 14:38:43
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Omnipotent Necron Overlord
|
 Marmatag wrote:Astra Militarum is a carnival of undercosted nonsense. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest they won a larger tournament, and every imperium list you see is enabled by guard.
Yawn. Kronos had a showing because, like i said, the only way to play Tyranids at the moment is essentially as a gunline. I'll still run genestealers because they're solid, but your primary plan is to outshoot people.
Do we know his list? I bet hes running at least 6 carnifex plus a big unit of Hive Gaurd.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/02 14:45:30
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
|
|
|
|
2018/05/02 15:00:47
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
 Xenomancers wrote: Marmatag wrote:Astra Militarum is a carnival of undercosted nonsense. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest they won a larger tournament, and every imperium list you see is enabled by guard.
Yawn. Kronos had a showing because, like i said, the only way to play Tyranids at the moment is essentially as a gunline. I'll still run genestealers because they're solid, but your primary plan is to outshoot people.
Do we know his list? I bet hes running at least 6 carnifex plus a big unit of Hive Gaurd.
Tyrant, 2x Dev w/ worms, wings
Tyrant, 2x Dev w/ worms, wings
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
6 HG, Impaler
6 HG, Impaler
6 HG, Impaler
Fex, Mace, Senses, Cysts, 2x Dev w/ worms
Fex, Mace, Senses, Cysts, 2x Dev w/ worms
Fex, Mace, Senses, Cysts, 2x Dev w/ worms
Tyrranofex, Rupture, Stinger Salvo
|
|
|
|
|
2018/05/02 19:19:42
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Omnipotent Necron Overlord
|
 Daedalus81 wrote: Xenomancers wrote: Marmatag wrote:Astra Militarum is a carnival of undercosted nonsense. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest they won a larger tournament, and every imperium list you see is enabled by guard.
Yawn. Kronos had a showing because, like i said, the only way to play Tyranids at the moment is essentially as a gunline. I'll still run genestealers because they're solid, but your primary plan is to outshoot people.
Do we know his list? I bet hes running at least 6 carnifex plus a big unit of Hive Gaurd.
Tyrant, 2x Dev w/ worms, wings
Tyrant, 2x Dev w/ worms, wings
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
6 HG, Impaler
6 HG, Impaler
6 HG, Impaler
Fex, Mace, Senses, Cysts, 2x Dev w/ worms
Fex, Mace, Senses, Cysts, 2x Dev w/ worms
Fex, Mace, Senses, Cysts, 2x Dev w/ worms
Tyrranofex, Rupture, Stinger Salvo
Not exactly what I expected but a full shooty list for sure...It has a pretty brutal weakness though which I am surprised didn't really cost him. He has only 2 synapse creatures. So once those go down hes -1 to hit if he doesn't shoot the closest target. What competitive list can't drop 2 tyrants in 1 turn - he doesn't even have a neurothrope? I guess I will never understand this until i actaully experience it. Going to my first ITC event mid may in Georgia.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/02 19:22:29
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
|
|
|
|
2018/05/02 19:44:18
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Xenomancers wrote:
Not exactly what I expected but a full shooty list for sure...It has a pretty brutal weakness though which I am surprised didn't really cost him. He has only 2 synapse creatures. So once those go down hes -1 to hit if he doesn't shoot the closest target. What competitive list can't drop 2 tyrants in 1 turn - he doesn't even have a neurothrope? I guess I will never understand this until i actaully experience it. Going to my first ITC event mid may in Georgia.
I think that's the broader point - people keep saying how a mass of lascannons (or gunline) will ruin anything they take first turn, but so many of those lists didn't even have whiff of a lascannon.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/02 19:44:43
|
|
|
|
|
2018/05/02 19:55:19
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Lascannons are being pushed out of the meta imo by cheap units with invuln saves and a flood of armies where T7 is the top.
|
|
|
|
|
2018/05/02 21:31:40
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Terminator with Assault Cannon
|
I see a lot of talk about Mortar Spam.
Ok... But what about Flyers?
AM has one seriously vicious combos for flyers.
Air Wing Detachment
Vulture Gunship with Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons
Vulture Gunship with Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons
Vulture Gunship with Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons
Valhallan Doc.
480 Pts,
120 (Heavy 40) S5, 0ap, 1dam shots, Strafing Run (+1 to hit units without FLY)
Have to get them below 4 wounds left to see any effect.
They could be combined into a single unit, but this way you could have the main body be a different Doc or Army.
This would be a Mob army sweeper and with that many dice you can wound anything.
|
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)
"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
|
|
|
|
|
2018/05/02 22:00:57
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Been Around the Block
|
 helgrenze wrote:I see a lot of talk about Mortar Spam.
Ok... But what about Flyers?
AM has one seriously vicious combos for flyers.
Air Wing Detachment
Vulture Gunship with Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons
Vulture Gunship with Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons
Vulture Gunship with Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons
Valhallan Doc.
480 Pts,
120 (Heavy 40) S5, 0ap, 1dam shots, Strafing Run (+1 to hit units without FLY)
Have to get them below 4 wounds left to see any effect.
They could be combined into a single unit, but this way you could have the main body be a different Doc or Army.
This would be a Mob army sweeper and with that many dice you can wound anything.
Vultures don't have the REGIMENT keyword, so can't be Valhallan.
|
|
|
|
|
2018/05/02 23:13:39
Subject: Re:"The Problem Child"
|
|
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
And they don't ignore move penalty.
They could kill about 40 cultists, but that's 160 points.
|
|
|
|
|
2018/05/02 23:31:16
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Terminator with Assault Cannon
|
Freezerassasin wrote: helgrenze wrote:I see a lot of talk about Mortar Spam.
Ok... But what about Flyers?
AM has one seriously vicious combos for flyers.
Air Wing Detachment
Vulture Gunship with Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons
Vulture Gunship with Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons
Vulture Gunship with Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons
Valhallan Doc.
480 Pts,
120 (Heavy 40) S5, 0ap, 1dam shots, Strafing Run (+1 to hit units without FLY)
Have to get them below 4 wounds left to see any effect.
They could be combined into a single unit, but this way you could have the main body be a different Doc or Army.
This would be a Mob army sweeper and with that many dice you can wound anything.
Vultures don't have the REGIMENT keyword, so can't be Valhallan.
Was working off Battlescribe, which seems to allow it.
|
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)
"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
|
|
|
|
|
2018/05/03 01:14:06
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Been Around the Block
|
helgrenze wrote:Freezerassasin wrote: helgrenze wrote:I see a lot of talk about Mortar Spam.
Ok... But what about Flyers?
AM has one seriously vicious combos for flyers.
Air Wing Detachment
Vulture Gunship with Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons
Vulture Gunship with Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons
Vulture Gunship with Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons
Valhallan Doc.
480 Pts,
120 (Heavy 40) S5, 0ap, 1dam shots, Strafing Run (+1 to hit units without FLY)
Have to get them below 4 wounds left to see any effect.
They could be combined into a single unit, but this way you could have the main body be a different Doc or Army.
This would be a Mob army sweeper and with that many dice you can wound anything.
Vultures don't have the REGIMENT keyword, so can't be Valhallan.
Was working off Battlescribe, which seems to allow it.
It will allow it because you can have them in the detachment, but they get no benefit from the REGIMENT abilities since they don't have REGIMENT.
|
|
|
|
|
2018/05/03 01:22:47
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Douglas Bader
|
And this is why you use the actual rulebook to build your lists, not third-party army builders.
|
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
|
|
|
|
2018/05/03 15:38:17
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Clousseau
|
Daedalus81 wrote: Xenomancers wrote: Marmatag wrote:Astra Militarum is a carnival of undercosted nonsense. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest they won a larger tournament, and every imperium list you see is enabled by guard. Yawn. Kronos had a showing because, like i said, the only way to play Tyranids at the moment is essentially as a gunline. I'll still run genestealers because they're solid, but your primary plan is to outshoot people.
Do we know his list? I bet hes running at least 6 carnifex plus a big unit of Hive Gaurd.
Tyrant, 2x Dev w/ worms, wings Tyrant, 2x Dev w/ worms, wings 3x Rippers 3x Rippers 3x Rippers 6 HG, Impaler 6 HG, Impaler 6 HG, Impaler Fex, Mace, Senses, Cysts, 2x Dev w/ worms Fex, Mace, Senses, Cysts, 2x Dev w/ worms Fex, Mace, Senses, Cysts, 2x Dev w/ worms Tyrranofex, Rupture, Stinger Salvo
Pretty standard except no Malanthrope is surprising considering it can give -1 to hit to all those big bugs, and not be targeted. This list essentially wins by not moving and shooting. I am going to run something similar. 2x Units of Hive Guard 3x Carnifex, with worms + heavy venoms 1x Tyrannofex /w Acid But i'm also going to bring screening units, venomthropes. I'll also bring genestealers because even though it's sub optimal, they will allow me to deal with things like bike captains, which I face a lot of out here. It's not rocket science. The only way to play tyranids right now is shooty. What flavor of shooty depends on your meta. Mine is well suited to what i posted above. Bringing Flying Hive Tyrants is an interesting choice. And this list he made doesn't care about synapse, or IB, all that much. Like i said i'd bring a Malanthrope with that list... and if i'm bringing hive tyrants i'm still putting MRC on them.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/03 15:40:53
 Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
|
|
|
|
|
2018/05/03 15:57:07
Subject: Re:"The Problem Child"
|
|
Storm Trooper with Maglight
|
Restrict Stratagems to only those from the Codex of the Warlord (plus the generic ones of course) - that'll might cool the soup a little.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/03 15:57:46
|
|
|
|
|
2018/05/03 16:06:53
Subject: Re:"The Problem Child"
|
|
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
 Kcalehc wrote:Restrict Stratagems to only those from the Codex of the Warlord (plus the generic ones of course) - that'll might cool the soup a little.
I asked the FLG guys on stream if they think GW will ever change the rules to keep IG from being a CP battery and they were pretty sure that it won't happen. I think i'll ask this one next time though I think they indicated negatively on this as well. I can't remember and the video doesn't seem to be on the channel.
|
|
|
|
|
2018/05/03 16:21:07
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Omnipotent Necron Overlord
|
Marmatag wrote: Daedalus81 wrote: Xenomancers wrote: Marmatag wrote:Astra Militarum is a carnival of undercosted nonsense. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest they won a larger tournament, and every imperium list you see is enabled by guard.
Yawn. Kronos had a showing because, like i said, the only way to play Tyranids at the moment is essentially as a gunline. I'll still run genestealers because they're solid, but your primary plan is to outshoot people.
Do we know his list? I bet hes running at least 6 carnifex plus a big unit of Hive Gaurd.
Tyrant, 2x Dev w/ worms, wings
Tyrant, 2x Dev w/ worms, wings
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
6 HG, Impaler
6 HG, Impaler
6 HG, Impaler
Fex, Mace, Senses, Cysts, 2x Dev w/ worms
Fex, Mace, Senses, Cysts, 2x Dev w/ worms
Fex, Mace, Senses, Cysts, 2x Dev w/ worms
Tyrranofex, Rupture, Stinger Salvo
Pretty standard except no Malanthrope is surprising considering it can give -1 to hit to all those big bugs, and not be targeted.
This list essentially wins by not moving and shooting.
I am going to run something similar.
2x Units of Hive Guard
3x Carnifex, with worms + heavy venoms
1x Tyrannofex /w Acid
But i'm also going to bring screening units, venomthropes. I'll also bring genestealers because even though it's sub optimal, they will allow me to deal with things like bike captains, which I face a lot of out here.
It's not rocket science. The only way to play tyranids right now is shooty. What flavor of shooty depends on your meta. Mine is well suited to what i posted above.
Bringing Flying Hive Tyrants is an interesting choice. And this list he made doesn't care about synapse, or IB, all that much. Like i said i'd bring a Malanthrope with that list... and if i'm bringing hive tyrants i'm still putting MRC on them.
malenthrope also provides synapse. FHT is a very weird choice.
|
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
|
|
|
|
2018/05/03 17:07:18
Subject: "The Problem Child"
|
|
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
|
Or only allow Command Points to be spent by the detachment that earned them.
|
They/them
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
