Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 gbghg wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late.

Yes indeed, that's been my worry too. But we might be able to work around it by just shooting chaff to little red chunks T1, then DS'ing T2. Things like Stfs Agressors have hugely increased in importance now. A full squad of six will net you 34 dead guardsmen. If each agressor can shoot at a different squad, that makes 5.5 dead in each squad: with a leadership of 7, each squad is looking at 2 or 3 losses from morale. Then next turn the angels drop in and go to town. It could work, and for 222pts, it's a real bargain imo. Its one big weakness is losing initiative, so you only have around 62% chance of actually getting to use them in this manner.

Actually they buffed commissars so that won't work out the way you think. Their leadership will be higher, and hey have "almost ATSNKF."

My primary tool to eliminate screens - Dakka-gants with a Trygon delivery - is no longer possible on turn 1. I can clear screens on turn 2. Or, i start my gaunts on the board, and lose them. 8ppm for a model with a 6+ save and 3T. Yeah.

commisars only bump guardsmen up to ld8, which means if you take 5 casulties you'd still lose models on a roll of 4+, which then triggers the commissar's ability, if the IG player goes for the reroll he loses a model then still runs the risk of losing more models. So he'd either lose 5 models and pass morale, fail the first time, execute a guy and then pass for 6 models lost, or fail execute and then fail again for at least 7 models lost. in any scenario the guard player is losing at least half a squad, commisars help now but they're not the cure all they used to be.

Yep... but they're 4pts per model so... If I have 10 marines and I lose the same amount I'm basically in the same scenario but at 3X the cost of a guards squad.

4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

 lolman1c wrote:

 gbghg wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late.

Yes indeed, that's been my worry too. But we might be able to work around it by just shooting chaff to little red chunks T1, then DS'ing T2. Things like Stfs Agressors have hugely increased in importance now. A full squad of six will net you 34 dead guardsmen. If each agressor can shoot at a different squad, that makes 5.5 dead in each squad: with a leadership of 7, each squad is looking at 2 or 3 losses from morale. Then next turn the angels drop in and go to town. It could work, and for 222pts, it's a real bargain imo. Its one big weakness is losing initiative, so you only have around 62% chance of actually getting to use them in this manner.

Actually they buffed commissars so that won't work out the way you think. Their leadership will be higher, and hey have "almost ATSNKF."

My primary tool to eliminate screens - Dakka-gants with a Trygon delivery - is no longer possible on turn 1. I can clear screens on turn 2. Or, i start my gaunts on the board, and lose them. 8ppm for a model with a 6+ save and 3T. Yeah.

commisars only bump guardsmen up to ld8, which means if you take 5 casulties you'd still lose models on a roll of 4+, which then triggers the commissar's ability, if the IG player goes for the reroll he loses a model then still runs the risk of losing more models. So he'd either lose 5 models and pass morale, fail the first time, execute a guy and then pass for 6 models lost, or fail execute and then fail again for at least 7 models lost. in any scenario the guard player is losing at least half a squad, commisars help now but they're not the cure all they used to be.

Yep... but they're 4pts per model so... If I have 10 marines and I lose the same amount I'm basically in the same scenario but at 3X the cost of a guards squad.

Even if you bump up the price that'll still be true to a large degree, you can come at it from the other end and make marines cheaper but it won't change the fact that guard are more efficient in a war of attrition than marines, I don't think that fact should change but you could take steps to bump up marines defense or offense or make guard die easier but I don't think that will be a simple fix, a lot of it seems to be down to the core rules of the edition favouring cheap bodies over tougher more expensive ones.

perilsensitive wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh I didn't know there was another kind of russ that wasn't a tank commander. Sorry.

Bare-bones Catachan Conquerors are very good for 155 points.
Cadian Russes are pretty good if you have Pask to give them Pound Them to Dust, and very good if you can leverage Overlapping Fields of Fire. I run them with Battlecannons and Plasma Sponsons.

Don't. Plasmacannons will make your tanks too expensive. Anything but heavy bolters will make your tank too expensive and won't return on value.

Xenomancers wrote:Oh I didn't know there was another kind of russ that wasn't a tank commander. Sorry.

Here's the breakdown, assuming the tanks are Cadian or Catachan:

A Tank Commander gets 1 order per turn, which he can use on himself or another tank. Hint, since he hits on 3's and his friend hits on 4's, he's going to use it on himself to get the most out of it. A Cadian Tank Commander uses his order to re-roll the number of shots he outputs and natively re-roll's 1 as long as he's stationary, a Catachan Tank Commander uses his order to re-roll 1's and natively re-rolls the number of shots he outputs. The Catachan tank can therefore move while the Cadian tank cannot, but the difference is academic.

A normal tank gets its regimental benefit, but not an order. It could hypothetically get an order. Those extra shots from the re-roll go farther when you're BS3+ than when your BS4+.

There are 2 varieties of Leman Russ that are relevant: Leman Russ Battle Tanks [the normal kind], and Leman Russ Punishers [the gatling gun kind]. The other tanks either act like the Battle Tank [Executioner, Eradicator], the Punisher [Exterminator], or are just garbage [Vanquisher, Demolisher]. There are 2 from Forge World [Conqueror, Annihilator].


A Battle Tank outputs 2d6 shots at S8, AP2, Dd3. I'll make some charts later showing the distribution, but against T7/3+:
An Ordinary Tank with no Buffs outputs about 3 damage per turn. 7 shots, 3.5 hits, 2.3 wounds, 1.5 failed saves, 3 damage.
A Ordinary Cadian Tank without orders outputs about 3.5 damage per turn.
A Ordinary Catachan Tank without orders outputs about 4 damage per turn.
A Ordinary Tank, fully buffed, outputs 4.5 damage per turn.
A Tank Commander, who will always be fully buffed since he's the source of the buff, output about 6.2 damage per turn.

Out of the box, a TC is 45 points more than a ordinary tank.


A Punisher tank or Tank Commander Punisher does not benefit from the re-rolling shot output. Unfortunately, the tank version of re-rolling 1's doesn't turn into full re-rolls if you sit still, unlike the infantry version. Therefore, a Cadian Tank Commander Punisher could hypothetically give his order to a ordinary Cadian Leman Russ Battle Tank.

The final consideration is Overlapping Fields of Fire, which can give +1 to hit to Cadian units shooting at a designated target. It's 2CPso for 2CP, a nearby TC going without his order's buff, and a unit that can deal a wound to the target unit, you can make a single ordinary tank act like a tank commander. Or you could have just paid the 45 points to make him a Tank Commander too.

You can also pay 10 points to make a Cadian Tank Commander Knight Commander Pask, buffing him to BS2+ and allowing him to buff a friend tank as well. He's the thing tipping the scales between Catachan and Cadian tank lists.


Another thing between Tank Commanders and ordinary tanks is that there's no additional cost for the TC's Lascannons or Heavy Bolter Sponsons or Storm Bolter. He pays the BS4+ discount, but is BS3+, so all his upgrades are more points-efficient too.

The basic fact of the matter is that basic russes are actually not great at all; but Commanders, for their 197 point bast cost [209 w/ Lascannon, 227 fully loaded], are solidly okay.


We can compare tank commanders with a lascannon predator, which un-buffed outputs 5 damage for 190 [7 damage for 190+cost of babysitters if he's buffed, though babysitters can buff multiple tanks for increased value.]


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:
4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

Just an FYI, CC's buff 2 units, so you're paying 15 points for the double fire output.

fe40k wrote:
4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

Pretty funny - I posted a list which is essentially an ideal IG gunline - and a bunch of IG players were trying to tell me how bad it was - and that I was going to lose all 60 infantry on turn 1. LOL.

 Xenomancers wrote:

fe40k wrote:
4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

Pretty funny - I posted a list which is essentially an ideal IG gunline - and a bunch of IG players were trying to tell me how bad it was - and that I was going to lose all 60 infantry on turn 1. LOL.

60's a little short on infantry, unless you've brought a Baneblade.

The enemy will go through them like butter. They might not T1 all of them, but by T2 you're not going to have an effective screen left.

Nothing goes through guardsmen like butter. That's the problem.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

fe40k wrote:
4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

Pretty funny - I posted a list which is essentially an ideal IG gunline - and a bunch of IG players were trying to tell me how bad it was - and that I was going to lose all 60 infantry on turn 1. LOL.

60's a little short on infantry, unless you've brought a Baneblade.

The enemy will go through them like butter. They might not T1 all of them, but by T2 you're not going to have an effective screen left.

agains 9 bassilcs and 3 manticor the enemy wont have a turn t3 to make you pay for that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

tears wont be shed... they are still good

That's actually part of the deeper issue. Scions are so cheap you don't care if they're in reserves for one more turn. They drop and die. Simple as that.

Then Obliterators and Destroyers have enough range in their guns that it's only a slight hit to them. Melee WAS the most affected here, whether you want to admit it or not.

It's a turn of shooting IG has to suffer from something they would have killed previously.

Obliterators move 4". If you want to hit anything on the back edge it's going to take until turn 3 to do so while you hope that they don't move.

Martel732 wrote:
Nothing goes through guardsmen like butter. That's the problem.

This is a true statement.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

perilsensitive wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh I didn't know there was another kind of russ that wasn't a tank commander. Sorry.

Bare-bones Catachan Conquerors are very good for 155 points.
Cadian Russes are pretty good if you have Pask to give them Pound Them to Dust, and very good if you can leverage Overlapping Fields of Fire. I run them with Battlecannons and Plasma Sponsons.

Don't. Plasmacannons will make your tanks too expensive. Anything but heavy bolters will make your tank too expensive and won't return on value.

Plasma Cannon Russ costs 14 points more. They gain more value than Heavy Bolters from the Cadian tank order/doctrine, and Overlapping Fields of Fire. I disagree with you that 14 points makes a Russ overcosted, at least for Cadian ones.

Martel732 wrote:Nothing goes through guardsmen like butter. That's the problem.

Here's a list of things that chew up Guardsmens adequately quickly:
Asscannon Razorback [116] [6.8/turn, 9.2 if buffed]
Immolation Flamer Immolator [105] [5.5/turn]
Dominions w/ 5 Storm Bolters [60] [6/turn]
Wolf Guard Bikers w/ 5 Storm Bolters [190] [12/turn, 16 if buffed]
Leman Russ Punisher [150-168] [14/turn]
Skitarii Vanguard [40] [3/turn]
Skitarii Rangers [35] [3/turn]

Guardsmen are on the high side of survivability curve, but not drastically so. The average unit takes about 3-4 times it's cost to knock out in 1 turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 perilsensitive wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

perilsensitive wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh I didn't know there was another kind of russ that wasn't a tank commander. Sorry.

Bare-bones Catachan Conquerors are very good for 155 points.
Cadian Russes are pretty good if you have Pask to give them Pound Them to Dust, and very good if you can leverage Overlapping Fields of Fire. I run them with Battlecannons and Plasma Sponsons.

Don't. Plasmacannons will make your tanks too expensive. Anything but heavy bolters will make your tank too expensive and won't return on value.

Plasma Cannon Russ costs 14 points more. They gain more value than Heavy Bolters from the Cadian tank order/doctrine, and Overlapping Fields of Fire. I disagree with you that 14 points makes a Russ overcosted, at least for Cadian ones.

Leman Russ Tank Commander with Heavy Bolters vs. Leman Russ Tank Commander with Plasma Cannons:
T3
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 3 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 3 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 3/6 wounds
T4
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 3 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2.5 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 3/6 wounds
T7
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 1.5 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2.5/5 wounds
T8
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 1.5 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 1.2 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2/4 wounds

You're not getting your points worth from those plasma cannons.

I can make plots later, because averages sometimes mislead, but there's some numbers-at-a-glance.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nothing goes through guardsmen like butter. That's the problem.

This is a true statement.

That's because GW, as well as a lot of players, falsely assume that a high volume of shots on a weapon equates to it suddenly being good for dealing with hordes, when this has been demonstrated time and again in 8th as clearly not being the case.

A proper horde killer needs to be designed specifically around punishing low-value statlines and high volume units, turning their poor statlines against them.

Good anti-horde weaponry could come from a variety of features. For example, extra attacks against large unit sizes punishes blobbing. Generating extra hits on unsaved wounds is also a great way to punish low save values commonly found on horde units.

3-4 times to kill stuff is average units shooting average units. Expecting to get 25-33% points back isn't very good. Most top tier stuff is 40%+, i.e. a 2.5 times counter.

So in other words you should be able to pay 10 points to kill a guardsmen.

Only the dominions reach that on your list and that is because they are underpriced (12 points for double a more expensive tactical marines firepower). The Punisher is okay I guess.

Tyel wrote:
3-4 times to kill stuff is average units shooting average units. Expecting to get 25-33% points back isn't very good. Most top tier stuff is 40%+, i.e. a 2.5 times counter.

So in other words you should be able to pay 10 points to kill a guardsmen.

Only the dominions reach that on your list and that is because they are underpriced (12 points for double a more expensive tactical marines firepower). The Punisher is okay I guess.

Huh?

3-4 x cost gets about 12-16 points-to-kill-a-guardsman.

Guardsmen, in a single turn, can kill approximately .33 guardsmen per turn. They can kill .1 Space Marines per turn. That's about 1.2 points per turn, which is just under a third of their value.

I think the numbers are reasonable. 12-16 points to kill, and killing 1.2 points per turn, is pretty much fair.

A Space Marine takes about 50 points to kill for 13 points, and does about 2.8 points per turn to the enemy.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nothing goes through guardsmen like butter. That's the problem.

This is a true statement.

That's because GW, as well as a lot of players, falsely assume that a high volume of shots on a weapon equates to it suddenly being good for dealing with hordes, when this has been demonstrated time and again in 8th as clearly not being the case.

A proper horde killer needs to be designed specifically around punishing low-value statlines and high volume units, turning their poor statlines against them.

Good anti-horde weaponry could come from a variety of features. For example, extra attacks against large unit sizes punishes blobbing. Generating extra hits on unsaved wounds is also a great way to punish low save values commonly found on horde units.

Some things in Sigmar have this (plus the bleeding over of wounds would definitely make a difference, except anti tank weapons would suddenly be the best horde killers!) like poison wind mortars where it adds +1 to hit over 10 and D6 to 6 wounds if over 20. This could easily translate to things like flamers doing 6 instead of D6 hits if a unit is over 20 or the like (or 3+D3), and I think a lot of weapons could make the cut for that and still not be "too" effective when it comes to killing other things.

 Blacksails wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
They fought and virtually sacrificed yourselves and each other for nothing.

A moment of silence for those who virtually sacrificed their lives in the great Guard war of early 2018.

Bahahahaahahaha!

None of the listed options are efficient on a per point basis. For example, paying 116 to kill 28 pts of guardsmen is insanity.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

...You're aware that Reece's competitive list is Codex: Space Marines, right? He plays Raptors.

Ice_can wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

fe40k wrote:
4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

Pretty funny - I posted a list which is essentially an ideal IG gunline - and a bunch of IG players were trying to tell me how bad it was - and that I was going to lose all 60 infantry on turn 1. LOL.

60's a little short on infantry, unless you've brought a Baneblade.

The enemy will go through them like butter. They might not T1 all of them, but by T2 you're not going to have an effective screen left.

agains 9 bassilcs and 3 manticor the enemy wont have a turn t3 to make you pay for that.

Is the player bringing 9 basilisks and 3 manticore's also building a wall out of every terrain piece on the board to hide them behind? Because i'd be impressed if they managed to hide all them out of LOS of every unit on your side of the board and neither of those vehicles are what you'd call tough, get some shots into them, knock them down a profile and their damage output will start dropping fast.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Leman Russ Tank Commander with Heavy Bolters vs. Leman Russ Tank Commander with Plasma Cannons:
T3
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 3 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 3 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 3/6 wounds
T4
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 3 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2.5 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 3/6 wounds
T7
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 1.5 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2.5/5 wounds
T8
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 1.5 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 1.2 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2/4 wounds

You're not getting your points worth from those plasma cannons.

I can make plots later, because averages sometimes mislead, but there's some numbers-at-a-glance.

2 things: for less than double the cost of 2 Heavy Bolters, you are getting more than double the wounds of 2 heavy bolters (overcharge, obv)
You also didn't factor in armor penetration.

Again, I would only do this for Cadian Russes, when they can reroll the number of shots AND reroll 1s, and possibly +1 to hit.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Tyel wrote:
3-4 times to kill stuff is average units shooting average units. Expecting to get 25-33% points back isn't very good. Most top tier stuff is 40%+, i.e. a 2.5 times counter.

So in other words you should be able to pay 10 points to kill a guardsmen.

Only the dominions reach that on your list and that is because they are underpriced (12 points for double a more expensive tactical marines firepower). The Punisher is okay I guess.

Huh?

3-4 x cost gets about 12-16 points-to-kill-a-guardsman.

Guardsmen, in a single turn, can kill approximately .33 guardsmen per turn. They can kill .1 Space Marines per turn. That's about 1.2 points per turn, which is just under a third of their value.

I think the numbers are reasonable. 12-16 points to kill, and killing 1.2 points per turn, is pretty much fair.

A Space Marine takes about 50 points to kill for 13 points, and does about 2.8 points per turn to the enemy.

Guardsmen are not generally considered optimised to kill marines - or anything really.

But still - outside rapid fire range.
Guardsmen shooting Marines,
1/2*1/3*1/3*13/4=18% return.
So about 72 points to kill a marine - half that in rapid fire range.

Marine shooting guardsmen,
2/3*2/3*2/3*4/13=9.1% return.
Or 44 points to kill a guardsmen - half that in rapid fire range.

So Guardsmen do about twice as much damage (in terms of points) to marines as marines do to guardsmen.
Which isn't perhaps a great comparison - because almost every troops choice in the game has more efficient shooting than tactical marines.
But still - throw in a few plasma weapons - or a whole host of weapons with S5 and/or AP and this boosts the damage output against marines even more. If you start giving marines special weapons its easy to start getting 50% efficiency in shooting them with many options - which is bad for the marine player.
There is no comparable weapon that mows down guardsmen.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

...You're aware that Reece's competitive list is Codex: Space Marines, right? He plays Raptors.

Not only this but his new list this year is a Tau one he is starting. He also runs a business that is dependent on selling all the models he purchases not just 1 of the three he plays (and the one he chooses to not play competitively).

 Kanluwen wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

Commissar and Conscript nerf says "what?".

Bluntly speaking, Reecius is in "their corner" when it comes to the way he plays. Screw anyone else, his stuff tends to come out okay--which is to say "Soup".

yeah I notice the soup nerf was pretty minor, because most people run their soups by detachment for the sweet sweet detachment bonuses

 gbghg wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

fe40k wrote:
4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

Pretty funny - I posted a list which is essentially an ideal IG gunline - and a bunch of IG players were trying to tell me how bad it was - and that I was going to lose all 60 infantry on turn 1. LOL.

60's a little short on infantry, unless you've brought a Baneblade.

The enemy will go through them like butter. They might not T1 all of them, but by T2 you're not going to have an effective screen left.

agains 9 bassilcs and 3 manticor the enemy wont have a turn t3 to make you pay for that.

Is the player bringing 9 basilisks and 3 manticore's also building a wall out of every terrain piece on the board to hide them behind? Because i'd be impressed if they managed to hide all them out of LOS of every unit on your side of the board and neither of those vehicles are what you'd call tough, get some shots into them, knock them down a profile and their damage output will start dropping fast.

They just create a line along the back of the DZ or create 2 corner parking lots and you can hide models behind other models even if the predators could destroy one parking lot (good luck) they can't be at both ends of a table at once.

Also, there's fall faq AND ca.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

Reece you there?

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

...You're aware that Reece's competitive list is Codex: Space Marines, right? He plays Raptors.

That makes sense. Consdiering Guilliman keeps getting nerfed and Ravengaurd have the most busted tactic in the game. Not to mention the only powerful stratagem in the marine codex - which is now effectively the only method for marines to leave their deployment zone other that walking.

I'm on day 3 of "How do I get half my PL of khorne daemons to survive turn 1?". No answers yet. Bloodcrushers went from "Kinda ok if I DotW a big squad in along side a Herald" to "Worst PL usage for deepstrike allowance".

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

...You're aware that Reece's competitive list is Codex: Space Marines, right? He plays Raptors.

That makes sense. Consdiering Guilliman keeps getting nerfed and Ravengaurd have the most busted tactic in the game. Not to mention the only powerful stratagem in the marine codex - which is now effectively the only method for marines to leave their deployment zone other that walking.

Yeah because a single playtester is surely responsible for the design of the Codex: Space Marines.