Switch Theme:

Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics, 3 months later  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Back in January I made this thread where I suggested that the Chapter Tactics for Black Templars should be changed to this:

Righteous Zeal

You may reroll failed charge rolls for Black Templars units with this Chapter Tactic. Further, any unit with this Chapter Tactics fights twice in each Fight Phase instead of once.


There was a strong opposition to it because it was felt that it would make Black Templars too good. I disagreed, but there was no consensus reached.

Three months and one big FAQ later and the situation is rather different; neither Bloodletter Bombs, Custodes Biker Captains nor Blood Angels have demolished the game, and just like Alpha Legion Berzerkers infiltrating these factions have (or had, before the FAQ) rather better options for getting into melee quickly than BT do.

In the current meta, would letting melee units with Chapter Tactics: Black Templars fight twice break the game? My position is obviously "no", but what's your thoughts on the subject?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

I don't think that its game breaking, but it would be very strong.
Now, the strategem to let any space marine unit fight twice should be reduced in price to 2CP to make it more viable.

Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Is not that it is game breaking. The problem with this chapter tactic is that is a band-aid.

Space Marine meele has a TON of problems and this won't fix it. Not only that, but by this existing, the buffs and changes that could be made to space marine meele units would be very limited.

Is the same thing as Guilliman. You can't make Space Marines competitive without Guilliman, because then with Guilliman they become flying rodent gak insane.

Guilliman needs to be redesigned for Space Marines to be able to be buffed and fixed properly.

This tactic would have the same effect than guilliman.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Galas wrote:
Is not that it is game breaking. The problem with this chapter tactic is that is a band-aid.

Space Marine meele has a TON of problems and this won't fix it. Not only that, but by this existing, the buffs and changes that could be made to space marine meele units would be very limited.

Is the same thing as Guilliman. You can't make Space Marines competitive without Guilliman, because then with Guilliman they become flying rodent gak insane.

Guilliman needs to be redesigned for Space Marines to be able to be buffed and fixed properly.

This tactic would have the same effect than guilliman.


That's a valid criticism, but it's also easier to do this as a stop-gap measure until such a time that the melee units can be fixed. Sure, it'd be a band-aid until the book could be made less awful as a whole, but a band-aid is better than nothing.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Do we really want to buff everything to be as good as the top tables right now?

While I don't want everything nerfed to oblivion, I do feel that the upper power bounds are a little excessive at the moment.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

It wouldn't be as good as the top tables though, because you'd still have the issue of actually getting into close combat in the first place. With Deep Strike assault being limited to turn 2 onwards and Deep Striking Black Templars having at best ~58% chance of making a charge with one unit per turn (reroll stratagem and Chapter Tactic) there wouldn't be anywhere near the reliability of Bloodletter Bombs or Death Company/Sanguinary Guard in assaulting from Deep Strike. Further, there aren't any Alpha Legion/Raven Guard infiltration shenanigans either, which means the army's stuck moving across the board in transports or on foot.

Sure, it'd be an army with a heavy punch in CC, but they'd have to get there first.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/22 23:22:09


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I'd rather something less extreme and not be redundant with the Strategem (which itself needs to be decreased in CP). How about an extra attack in the first round of combat instead.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

I dislike this idea because it's so much stronger than the World Eaters Legion tactic.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






 Galas wrote:
Is not that it is game breaking. The problem with this chapter tactic is that is a band-aid.

Space Marine meele has a TON of problems and this won't fix it. Not only that, but by this existing, the buffs and changes that could be made to space marine meele units would be very limited.

Is the same thing as Guilliman. You can't make Space Marines competitive without Guilliman, because then with Guilliman they become flying rodent gak insane.

Guilliman needs to be redesigned for Space Marines to be able to be buffed and fixed properly.

This tactic would have the same effect than guilliman.


Honestly I'd love love for him to cost around 300 but then also be worth 300. I'm not gonna proprse anything but I feel with his current rules he's worth more that 300 but not worth 400. Might have something to do with Marines being bad across the board and they NEED a huge force multiplier to get anything done.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 MinMax wrote:
I dislike this idea because it's so much stronger than the World Eaters Legion tactic.

They need an improvement too. Let's not pretend the two can't get additional improvements. I hadn't brainstormed how I would approach improving World Eaters yet as I've been focusing on the Loyalist Scum.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Black Templars used to have a bonus where if they took casualties, they could move further up the field. How about something like this, in addition to the re-roll charge bonus.

"(Insert clever name here): If a unit with this trait suffers any casualties during the opponent's turn, they may move 3" towards the closest enemy unit at the end of the opponent's turn."
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 MinMax wrote:
I dislike this idea because it's so much stronger than the World Eaters Legion tactic.


World Eaters would still have access to Cultists, Daemon Princes, and Khorne Berzerkers, three units that would still be better than anything BT could field.

Don't look at the suggested Chapter Tactic in isolation, look at the overall effect; yes, World Eaters would have a worse Legion Tactic, but they have a better baseline to work from. As an example, if the current Black Templars melee units are at a 4 (completely arbitrary number) and the World Eaters melee untis are at an 8 (again, arbitrary) it doesn't make sense to complain that Black Templars get a Chapter Tactic that adds +5 on my made-up scale while World Eaters only get a +1; they both end up at 9 in the end anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/23 12:10:03


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





3 months later and that's still a no. You'd have to add least 50% to the cost of black templar dreads, unless you think 8 to 10 S12 AP-3 D3 dattacks are fine at their current cost. What about that ridiculous banner that lets you attack again when you die? There is 1 unit for world eaters that can fight twice. That ability was costed in. You want to give an entire army this ability for no cost. That makes no sense.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

That ability blatantly wasn't costed in considering Khorne Berzerkers would still outfight any comparable unit that Black Templars could field with the buff. Either Khorne Berzerkers are ridiculously undercosted or Space Marine melee units are ridiculously overcosted, and from the fact that Berzerkers are merely good when compared to other units we know it's the latter. As it is, I have to take twice the Berzerkers numbers in Vanguard Veterans and support them with Helbrecht's auras to finally overtake 10 Berzerkers. That's 500 points to match 180 points of Berzerkers. Tell me again how Berzerkers have their fights twice included in their price?

Dreadnoughts aren't taken competetively because they're bad. They still wouldn't be very good after this buff because they're stuck walking across the board or trying to get a 9" charge from a Lucius Pod. Daemon Princes are good because they fly 12", Dreadnoughts don't. 10 S12 AP-3 Dd3 attacks that realistically don't happen until turn three at the earliest aren't worth more points than the current Dreadnoughts cost, no.

The banner wouldn't do a thing to synergize with this change because all it does is let you make one attack as you die. One attack, not a whole round of combat.

Khorne Berzerkers aren't exclusive to World Eaters. Alpha Legion infiltrating Berzerkers is a thing for a reason.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
3 months later and that's still a no. You'd have to add least 50% to the cost of black templar dreads, unless you think 8 to 10 S12 AP-3 D3 dattacks are fine at their current cost. What about that ridiculous banner that lets you attack again when you die? There is 1 unit for world eaters that can fight twice. That ability was costed in. You want to give an entire army this ability for no cost. That makes no sense.

Because a Dreadnought ever gets into melee?

Only Relic Contemptors do that and for 200+ points I'm actually expecting some damage done.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Exactly my point. A Laspred trades S12 for S9 (only matters against T5 and T6) but gains d6 wounds rather than 3 and can actually start contributing turn 1. When Dreadnoughts are taken it's as shooting platforms with two guns.

If Dreadnoughts would be OP with this I sure hope you don't have to face Bloodletters, because 20 Bloodletters (165 points, around a Dread's lower cost) do 2/3 damage to a Land Raider (the ideal target for a CC Dreadnought) compared to one of my suggested Dreadnoughts, except they are much better against smaller units and can charge from Deep Strike with a 90+% success rate rather than 57%.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/25 13:09:57


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The fights-twice seems to be the OP part. Reroll charges seems fine.

One problem is that the range on powers varies a lot. On one hand you've got the RG trait that's bonkers OP, then you've got terrible traits like Iyanden that few people care about. I'm not sure what level you should be aiming for, but it should be somewhere between those. And fighting twice sounds like it'd be above RG.

If you wanted to increase CC, something like "Chainswords grant another additional attack" or something. Fighting twice is a crazy-good thing, even on bad-CC units. I haven't seen an option that has it that's balanced.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

The mere existence of Khorne Berzerkers invalidates your entire complaint. What unit in the Space Marine Codex would be OP with "fights twice"? There's a reason why I keep bringing up Berzerkers; the only thing that would come close to them would be Vanguard Veterans, who would still lack strength and AP compared to the Berzerkers. In short, Khorne Berzerkers are already better than what you're calling OP, and they're not ruining the game. Plus, you can take them as Troops.


And of course reroll charges seems fine; that's what we currently have and it's awful because there's a grand total of one unit (Vanguard Veterans) that aren't complete trash in CC. Vanguard are okay-ish because they can actually get into CC before the game ends. That's the common denominator for all Black Templars melee units: they take forever to get into combat and once they get there they get a quarter of the attacks Khorne Berzerkers do at lower strength with worse AP.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
Is not that it is game breaking. The problem with this chapter tactic is that is a band-aid.

Space Marine meele has a TON of problems and this won't fix it. Not only that, but by this existing, the buffs and changes that could be made to space marine meele units would be very limited.

Is the same thing as Guilliman. You can't make Space Marines competitive without Guilliman, because then with Guilliman they become flying rodent gak insane.

Guilliman needs to be redesigned for Space Marines to be able to be buffed and fixed properly.

This tactic would have the same effect than guilliman.

Yeah, I think this is right. If someone wanted to try this out in a game, I'd probably be fine with it, or at least with doubling their attacks or something like that. But it's not something that I'd want to see as an official change to the game, since it basically says: "all CC units from Codex: Space Marines need to be Black Templars". It's a problem when one trait is an auto-pick for a big section of a codex because then those units end up being either too good with that trait or not good enough without it.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator





I don't know about fighting twice, but I do think Black Templars need some kind of buff. I think rerolling charges and adding 1 attack per model when charging/charged would be a good choice. You could mass Crusader Squads with Shotguns to have an effective close range unit for shooting and charging (2 S5 shots, 2 S5 attacks (with helbrecht)), regular Assault Marines would be worth taking and Vanguard Veterans would be frightening.

I don't like Vanguard being able to outfight Berzerkers because Berzerkers are footsloggers, plain and simple. The mobility is what gives Vanguard Vets the edge, and equipped with LCs a unit of 5 veterans would absolutely decimate a 5 man zerker squad - with no buffs. Add Helbrecht and you can wipe out a 10 man squad.

In general, a tactic like this would effectively double the attacks of your baseline units giving you the same effect as you asked for, while not throwing units like Dreadnoughts or Jump Pack Thunderhammer Captains out of wack.

Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1." 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Let me check the math... VV have 2 attacks base, +1 with dual Claws, and 3 base on the Sarge?

So that's (2+1+1)*5+1, or 21 attacks. 14 hits, 10.5 wounds, 8.75 unsaved.

Not bad.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 SputnikDX wrote:
I don't know about fighting twice, but I do think Black Templars need some kind of buff. I think rerolling charges and adding 1 attack per model when charging/charged would be a good choice. You could mass Crusader Squads with Shotguns to have an effective close range unit for shooting and charging (2 S5 shots, 2 S5 attacks (with helbrecht)), regular Assault Marines would be worth taking and Vanguard Veterans would be frightening.

I don't like Vanguard being able to outfight Berzerkers because Berzerkers are footsloggers, plain and simple. The mobility is what gives Vanguard Vets the edge, and equipped with LCs a unit of 5 veterans would absolutely decimate a 5 man zerker squad - with no buffs. Add Helbrecht and you can wipe out a 10 man squad.

In general, a tactic like this would effectively double the attacks of your baseline units giving you the same effect as you asked for, while not throwing units like Dreadnoughts or Jump Pack Thunderhammer Captains out of wack.


That makes no sense at all though. 5 Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs and twin Lightning Claws would be 150 points, whereas the Berzerkers would be 90 points (assuming Chainaxe and Icon). You seriously don't want a unit that's 66% more expensive to decimate the cheaper option?

If those Berzerkers charge the Vanguard Veterans they kill 6.66 Vanguard with the Chainaxes alone (assuming World Eaters). Why is it OK that Khorne Berzerkers can absolutely defecate all over their Loyalist counterparts but completely broken and OP when the Vanguard Veterans can actually fight back?

Vanguard Veterans with 5 attacks instead of 4 wouldn't be "frightening", they'd be slightly less meh than they are. There'd still be no reason to play them over Death Company, Sanguinary Guard or Berzerkers. Can we stop pretending that a unit that's got less than half the damage output of Berzerkers for the same cost would somehow be good if it went from 4 attacks to 5?

Dionysodorus wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Is not that it is game breaking. The problem with this chapter tactic is that is a band-aid.

Space Marine meele has a TON of problems and this won't fix it. Not only that, but by this existing, the buffs and changes that could be made to space marine meele units would be very limited.

Is the same thing as Guilliman. You can't make Space Marines competitive without Guilliman, because then with Guilliman they become flying rodent gak insane.

Guilliman needs to be redesigned for Space Marines to be able to be buffed and fixed properly.

This tactic would have the same effect than guilliman.

Yeah, I think this is right. If someone wanted to try this out in a game, I'd probably be fine with it, or at least with doubling their attacks or something like that. But it's not something that I'd want to see as an official change to the game, since it basically says: "all CC units from Codex: Space Marines need to be Black Templars". It's a problem when one trait is an auto-pick for a big section of a codex because then those units end up being either too good with that trait or not good enough without it.


It doesn't though. Raven Guard would still be a contender because while they wouldn't have a comparable melee output they'd be able to get into combat on turn 1 with Strike From the Shadows.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

To be fair, 150 points of VV kill 8.75 Berserkers, or 157.5 points.

Yes, the Berserkers are killier, point for point, but they're also less mobile.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Your calculations are off. Currently 5 VV with Lightning Claws kill 5.333 MEQ on average (16*(2/3)*(3/4)*(2/3)=5.333...). My suggested Vanguard Veterans would kill twice that (So 10.666...), the suggestion to add an attack to the Vanguard would make it 7 exactly. Meanwhile 146 points of Khorne Berzerkers kill ~10.6 without any Legion Tactics. The objection that Vanguard Veterans would be too strong because they'd demolish Khorne Berzerkers is thus meaningless, because they already do with Lightning Claws, and yet they're still not taken because they're a bad unit, Twin-LC Vanguard Veterans are 30 PPM models that die like 13 PPM models. They're crazy fragile for half the damage output of the Berzerkers.

My suggested Chapter Tactic would thus make a unit that's kitted out for anti-MEQ (Twin-LC Vanguard Veterans) perform slightly better than a generalist melee unit that performs better against less-armoured targets or against T3 targets while having better mobility. We're being very generous and not involving World Eaters or Alpha Legion in the discussion here, but how would this be unfair? The Khorne Berzerkers would be better against most targets but the Vanguard Veterans would have mobility, it just wouldn't be a 100% difference in damage output for the same price (and this isn't taking into account that you get 60% more wounds with the Berzerkers either).

It's pretty telling that we have to stack the deck immensely in favour of the Vanguard Veterans (double their current attacks, no Legion Tactic for the Berzerkers) to end up in a position where they're almost as good as Berzerkers.

If you want to know what'd happen if you made the Chapter Tactics +1 attack on the charge and reroll charges, look at all the non-HQ melee units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines that aren't Khorne Berzerkers. They're never taken, because they're awful. They can get reroll to charge distance from their Icons, they get an extra attack first turn, and they're hopelessly inferior to Khorne Berzerkers. Terminators and Warp Talons had a niche with Warptime from Deep Strike that is now gone. That's where your suggestions would land Black Templars: improved, and still useless.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Lightning Claws are only -2?

Okay, that's where my math went wrong. I thought they were -3.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





VV can pay 2pts for Fly and more movement. That's kinda what they do. Footslogging VV aren't great at CC, but Fly and more movement on a CC unit is kinda a big deal.

Compare the VV to other anti-MEQ CC units. Then compare Khorne Berzerkers to them. Khorne Berzerkes simply out-perform most CC units, not just VV.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 17:01:16


 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

So why do we hold the Vanguard Veterans to the level of bad CC units rather than making them able to compete with CC units that are actually good?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So why do we hold the Vanguard Veterans to the level of bad CC units rather than making them able to compete with CC units that are actually good?


Do you want every CC unit to be on the level of Berserkers?

Because I think most of use can agree, they're TOO good.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Berzerkers are too good? What about Genestealers, Bloodletters, Daemon Princes, Custodes, Ork Boyz and a bunch of other units that are on-par with Berzerkers, are they too good too?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Berzerkers are too good? What about Genestealers, Bloodletters, Daemon Princes, Custodes, Ork Boyz and a bunch of other units that are on-par with Berzerkers, are they too good too?


Genestealers might be too good.

Bloodletters are amazing in one specific combination, making one squad awesome, but lots of Bloodletters are... Meh. Not bad. That's a Stratagem issue.

Daemon Princes are good, but hardly too good.

Custodes? Are you serious?

And Ork Boyz too?

In addition to that, if you're asking me "Should the top-tier of gameplay be toned down?" the answer to that is a resounding YES. The top end of 40k is far too powerful right now. The bottom should be brought up, the top down, and meeting in the middle would be excellent.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: