Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just saw the cover of one of the new books with Daemon Fulgrim and Angron sitting next to “human” Horus with Perturabo and Logar standing behind.

Got me thinking, what did the non-Daemon Prince Primarchs think of their Brothers going into Daemonhood?

I imagine one of the later stories might go into this. I especially think that the Primarchs of the Alpha Legion and Night Lords didn’t like this as they never ascended.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Just saw the cover of one of the new books with Daemon Fulgrim and Angron sitting next to “human” Horus with Perturabo and Logar standing behind.

Got me thinking, what did the non-Daemon Prince Primarchs think of their Brothers going into Daemonhood?

I imagine one of the later stories might go into this. I especially think that the Primarchs of the Alpha Legion and Night Lords didn’t like this as they never ascended.

Bear in mind the two who did in Heresey where held in lower status than others, as of legions.

Horus regarded Angron a blunt tool for destroying things, and Fulgrims Legion was as proved in siege, nigh on useless at doing the job they needed. got bored, started just torturing and worse. while the attack was slowing at times, Fulgrium and his men where off doing gak all to help and teroising civilians. . Even then before the descent to slanesh left them a more unified rabble than orgonized and effective war machine.

,Meanwhile Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Sons of Horus and a few others maintained discipline and command structures. capable of understanding, executing and working in coherent battle strategy.

Horus had some truely hand me down primarchs to work with.
The Emparors team, despite everything, had some of the more stable and reliable ones, aka not loony, terror troops, or Blunt tools with little subtelty.

If you wat top tier traitors/
Petarbo, Horus, Logar and maybe Morty.

The others where liabailties.

(alppha Legion was effectove. but not listed as so secretive it was tough to even workw ith them, or work out what they where up top, and what they where might not even be real or a trick of a trick hiding the real thing. Reliable, just not easy to work into a plan. )

The 12th new Angron was dying, they were angry at Lorgar for ascending Angron to deamonhood but they understood it was hat or let the nails kill Angron.

There is a great bit at the end of Betrayer where Kharn confronts Lorgar over what Angron "is".

I dont really think Horus cared because he was so far gone, he probably viewed it as them tapping into power that the emperor tried to hide from them, because probably some crap like he thought that it could over throw the emp.

Remember most primarchs were gone mentally by that time.
Kruz was depressed and checked out
Pertorabo was just insane with jealousy
Fulgrim lost his mind to insanity after killing is best friend
Magnus did nothing wrong
Angron was always just a rage child
Mortarian was.....you know im not to sure what his MO was but i know he hates that he is a daemon prince.
Horus is a self righteous narcissist
Alpharias and Omagon exist.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Alpharias and Omagon exist.

You can’t confirm that!

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I dont really think Horus cared because he was so far gone, he probably viewed it as them tapping into power that the emperor tried to hide from them, because probably some crap like he thought that it could over throw the emp.

Remember most primarchs were gone mentally by that time.
Kruz was depressed and checked out
Pertorabo was just insane with jealousy
Fulgrim lost his mind to insanity after killing is best friend
Magnus did nothing wrong
Angron was always just a rage child
Mortarian was.....you know im not to sure what his MO was but i know he hates that he is a daemon prince.
Horus is a self righteous narcissist
Alpharias and Omagon exist.

Curze was indeed quite far gone by that point.

Peturabo was not consumed by jealousy, he was ground down on purpose, new book confirms this.

Fulgrim swan dived into chaos willingly, in for a penny, in for a pound.

Magnus broke the Edict, he did it for good reasons, but he still broke it, also letting a montrously powerful deamon ride around with him everywhere, taking power from Tzeench and screwing with stuff he should have left well alone... he did plenty wrong.

Angron was consumed by the nails and never being able to sleep, this manifested in violent mood swings and anger issues.

Horus was right in the end, he was right about the emperor, he was right to fight back for what he believed in, he was wrong to let the gods get involved.

the primarchs are so much more complicated that people give them credit for .

Perturabo was ground down on purpose? Which new book? How's it confirmed?

Wait.... Are you saying the whole reason agron was grumpy was because he literally perpetually got up on the wrong side of the bed and could never take a nap.....

Man I can relate to agron. Magnus did nothing wrong? Nah man angron did nothing wrong. 10 bucks said the reason he truned was someone did not fill the break room coffee pot after they emptied it

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Alpharias and Omagon exist.

You can’t confirm that!

Dorn can.

"Path of Heaven" has a conversation between Horus and Mortarion where they discuss what has happened to Fulgrim (I can't remember if they mention Angron or not). Horus basically says that Fulgrim has lost the plot. He does also argue that they should be take advantage of the gifts Chaos offers but in a more careful fashion than Fulgrim (not really sure that is possible).

Ironically I think that Horus is still in denial about the true nature of Chaos at this point. He still thinks it is something that obeys rules and can be controlled. Fulgrim has simply recognised its true nature and embraced it.

 Karhedron wrote:
"Path of Heaven" has a conversation between Horus and Mortarion where they discuss what has happened to Fulgrim (I can't remember if they mention Angron or not). Horus basically says that Fulgrim has lost the plot. He does also argue that they should be take advantage of the gifts Chaos offers but in a more careful fashion than Fulgrim (not really sure that is possible).

Ironically I think that Horus is still in denial about the true nature of Chaos at this point. He still thinks it is something that obeys rules and can be controlled. Fulgrim has simply recognised its true nature and embraced it.

That's a new perspective to say thr least. I'd always imagined Horus as the ultimate Comander and skilled stratagist.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
"Path of Heaven" has a conversation between Horus and Mortarion where they discuss what has happened to Fulgrim (I can't remember if they mention Angron or not). Horus basically says that Fulgrim has lost the plot. He does also argue that they should be take advantage of the gifts Chaos offers but in a more careful fashion than Fulgrim (not really sure that is possible).

Ironically I think that Horus is still in denial about the true nature of Chaos at this point. He still thinks it is something that obeys rules and can be controlled. Fulgrim has simply recognised its true nature and embraced it.

That's a new perspective to say thr least. I'd always imagined Horus as the ultimate Comander and skilled stratagist.

Nope that honor goes to the lion, Horus is good but not as good as the lion when it comes to battle plans. Horus is just super charismatic and arogent

Where's the pic from? I'd like to see it if anyone has it?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Where's the pic from? I'd like to see it if anyone has it?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/25/brand-new-cover-art-revealed-apr25/

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
"Path of Heaven" has a conversation between Horus and Mortarion where they discuss what has happened to Fulgrim (I can't remember if they mention Angron or not). Horus basically says that Fulgrim has lost the plot. He does also argue that they should be take advantage of the gifts Chaos offers but in a more careful fashion than Fulgrim (not really sure that is possible).

Ironically I think that Horus is still in denial about the true nature of Chaos at this point. He still thinks it is something that obeys rules and can be controlled. Fulgrim has simply recognised its true nature and embraced it.

That's a new perspective to say thr least. I'd always imagined Horus as the ultimate Comander and skilled stratagist.

Nope that honor goes to the lion, Horus is good but not as good as the lion when it comes to battle plans. Horus is just super charismatic and arogent

Bar beating gak out of I think night Lords what did the Lion even manage? He was a great stratagist but... His achievements in Heresey are not as long as his brothers.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Perturabo was ground down on purpose? Which new book? How's it confirmed?

They send the iron warriors to a part of space that has no stagegic value to fight an enemy that doesn’t need to be fought, dantioch and members of the trident try to tell peturabo that there is no other reason they have been sent there and this makes peturabo quite quite angry, both because they had the audacity to tell him and because he knows they are right, the orders did not come from the warmaster but from terra, he says himself that the only strategic reason to send the iron warriors is to grind them down, then Olympia rebels, the rest is history.

The book is primarchs peturabo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Wait.... Are you saying the whole reason agron was grumpy was because he literally perpetually got up on the wrong side of the bed and could never take a nap.....

Man I can relate to agron. Magnus did nothing wrong? Nah man angron did nothing wrong. 10 bucks said the reason he truned was someone did not fill the break room coffee pot after they emptied it

Yeah pretty much, it got to the point where he literally could not sleep, the psychosis caused by that alone is a good enough reason why he was so unstable.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Where's the pic from? I'd like to see it if anyone has it?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/25/brand-new-cover-art-revealed-apr25/

Thank you kindly!

Really not a fan of the art though, it seems almost cartoony to me and Fulgrim's wings look like they're sprouting from his head!

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
"Path of Heaven" has a conversation between Horus and Mortarion where they discuss what has happened to Fulgrim (I can't remember if they mention Angron or not). Horus basically says that Fulgrim has lost the plot. He does also argue that they should be take advantage of the gifts Chaos offers but in a more careful fashion than Fulgrim (not really sure that is possible).

Ironically I think that Horus is still in denial about the true nature of Chaos at this point. He still thinks it is something that obeys rules and can be controlled. Fulgrim has simply recognised its true nature and embraced it.

That's a new perspective to say thr least. I'd always imagined Horus as the ultimate Comander and skilled stratagist.

Nope that honor goes to the lion, Horus is good but not as good as the lion when it comes to battle plans. Horus is just super charismatic and arogent

Yes, Horus got the position of Warmaster in large part due to his charisma which made him a great leader, even if not the top tactical intellect.

In either case, Chaos duped Horus at Molech. He believed (in his arrogance) that he had wrested a portion of gods' power from them during his trip through the portal, much as the Emperor had. In fact they just fed him a power-up and let his arrogance convince him that he was in charge when in fact he was just making himself more and more their pawn.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
"Path of Heaven" has a conversation between Horus and Mortarion where they discuss what has happened to Fulgrim (I can't remember if they mention Angron or not). Horus basically says that Fulgrim has lost the plot. He does also argue that they should be take advantage of the gifts Chaos offers but in a more careful fashion than Fulgrim (not really sure that is possible).

Ironically I think that Horus is still in denial about the true nature of Chaos at this point. He still thinks it is something that obeys rules and can be controlled. Fulgrim has simply recognised its true nature and embraced it.

That's a new perspective to say thr least. I'd always imagined Horus as the ultimate Comander and skilled stratagist.

Nope that honor goes to the lion, Horus is good but not as good as the lion when it comes to battle plans. Horus is just super charismatic and arogent

Correct and wrong at the same time - the lion is by far the better tactician, probably the best of any of his brothers. However, he's not the best commander - Horus is - because he has gak all people skills for sizing up and manipulating allies and enemies.

Every primarch has their weakness, but the Lion's is particularly crippling in a civil war, where half the time the big problem is not knowing who the enemy is in the first place. And, true to form, the Lion see-saws unpredictably between massive paranoia and quite surprising naivete.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
"Path of Heaven" has a conversation between Horus and Mortarion where they discuss what has happened to Fulgrim (I can't remember if they mention Angron or not). Horus basically says that Fulgrim has lost the plot. He does also argue that they should be take advantage of the gifts Chaos offers but in a more careful fashion than Fulgrim (not really sure that is possible).

Ironically I think that Horus is still in denial about the true nature of Chaos at this point. He still thinks it is something that obeys rules and can be controlled. Fulgrim has simply recognised its true nature and embraced it.

That's a new perspective to say thr least. I'd always imagined Horus as the ultimate Comander and skilled stratagist.

Nope that honor goes to the lion, Horus is good but not as good as the lion when it comes to battle plans. Horus is just super charismatic and arogent

Yes, Horus got the position of Warmaster in large part due to his charisma which made him a great leader, even if not the top tactical intellect.

In either case, Chaos duped Horus at Molech. He believed (in his arrogance) that he had wrested a portion of gods' power from them during his trip through the portal, much as the Emperor had. In fact they just fed him a power-up and let his arrogance convince him that he was in charge when in fact he was just making himself more and more their pawn.

Given all the new fluff around the emperor and malcador, their plans to eventually off the legions after they have torn each other apart, it’s quite likely Horus was chosen as a purposeful snub to cause friction with the other primarchs, which it did.

When you look at some of the things that happened during the crusade and the emperors actions, through the lens of “I want them to kill each other eventually” we’ll.. the emps choices start to make sense, the edict, favouring certain legions and primarchs over others, leaving the crusade, it all starts to make sense.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
"Path of Heaven" has a conversation between Horus and Mortarion where they discuss what has happened to Fulgrim (I can't remember if they mention Angron or not). Horus basically says that Fulgrim has lost the plot. He does also argue that they should be take advantage of the gifts Chaos offers but in a more careful fashion than Fulgrim (not really sure that is possible).

Ironically I think that Horus is still in denial about the true nature of Chaos at this point. He still thinks it is something that obeys rules and can be controlled. Fulgrim has simply recognised its true nature and embraced it.

That's a new perspective to say thr least. I'd always imagined Horus as the ultimate Comander and skilled stratagist.

Nope that honor goes to the lion, Horus is good but not as good as the lion when it comes to battle plans. Horus is just super charismatic and arogent

Bar beating gak out of I think night Lords what did the Lion even manage? He was a great stratagist but... His achievements in Heresey are not as long as his brothers.

Took a 1500 marine force and subjugated a Dark Mech forgeworld that had a fleet of SoH supporting it?

We're also still waiting for the book that details everything the DA were doing throughout the Heresy.

They don't though. Intentionally causing a civil war is incredibly stupid. There are much better ways to off the legions. Not that that's a good idea anyway.

locarno24 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
"Path of Heaven" has a conversation between Horus and Mortarion where they discuss what has happened to Fulgrim (I can't remember if they mention Angron or not). Horus basically says that Fulgrim has lost the plot. He does also argue that they should be take advantage of the gifts Chaos offers but in a more careful fashion than Fulgrim (not really sure that is possible).

Ironically I think that Horus is still in denial about the true nature of Chaos at this point. He still thinks it is something that obeys rules and can be controlled. Fulgrim has simply recognised its true nature and embraced it.

That's a new perspective to say thr least. I'd always imagined Horus as the ultimate Comander and skilled stratagist.

Nope that honor goes to the lion, Horus is good but not as good as the lion when it comes to battle plans. Horus is just super charismatic and arogent

Correct and wrong at the same time - the lion is by far the better tactician, probably the best of any of his brothers. However, he's not the best commander - Horus is - because he has gak all people skills for sizing up and manipulating allies and enemies.

Every primarch has their weakness, but the Lion's is particularly crippling in a civil war, where half the time the big problem is not knowing who the enemy is in the first place. And, true to form, the Lion see-saws unpredictably between massive paranoia and quite surprising naivete.

Yup, his interpersonal skills were certainly his biggest weakness. Hence the above action I mention, and then immediately handing the weapons over to Purturabo.

 Formosa wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Perturabo was ground down on purpose? Which new book? How's it confirmed?

They send the iron warriors to a part of space that has no stagegic value to fight an enemy that doesn’t need to be fought, dantioch and members of the trident try to tell peturabo that there is no other reason they have been sent there and this makes peturabo quite quite angry, both because they had the audacity to tell him and because he knows they are right, the orders did not come from the warmaster but from terra, he says himself that the only strategic reason to send the iron warriors is to grind them down, then Olympia rebels, the rest is history.

The book is primarchs peturabo.

I think you are being a little misleading there. The Emperor wanted the universe free from all xenos to ensure mankind's safety, so the hrud did need to be fought. The ending made it clear that the Emperor sent Perturabo to conflicts he knew only he could win. So although that conflict did see significant casualties, the book does not suggest at any point that this was the Emperor's, or anyone else's, desired outcome. Him taking it that way doesn't mean anything, if anything it sets him up for the 'you missed the point all along' ending.

Do the Hrud need to be fought? I've never heard of them invading anything or starting war. They just keep to themselves. So Perturabo being angry at he and his men being butchered in a needless fight to satisfy some tyrant seems pretty justified.

 JamesY wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Perturabo was ground down on purpose? Which new book? How's it confirmed?

They send the iron warriors to a part of space that has no stagegic value to fight an enemy that doesn’t need to be fought, dantioch and members of the trident try to tell peturabo that there is no other reason they have been sent there and this makes peturabo quite quite angry, both because they had the audacity to tell him and because he knows they are right, the orders did not come from the warmaster but from terra, he says himself that the only strategic reason to send the iron warriors is to grind them down, then Olympia rebels, the rest is history.

The book is primarchs peturabo.

I think you are being a little misleading there. The Emperor wanted the universe free from all xenos to ensure mankind's safety, so the hrud did need to be fought. The ending made it clear that the Emperor sent Perturabo to conflicts he knew only he could win. So although that conflict did see significant casualties, the book does not suggest at any point that this was the Emperor's, or anyone else's, desired outcome. Him taking it that way doesn't mean anything, if anything it sets him up for the 'you missed the point all along' ending.

It’s peturabos conclusion and that of his trident, information directly from malcador leans heavily that this conclusion may be correct and given the Hrud would become a greater threat to several imperial systems by being displaced also adds credence to this conclusion, im applying the greater narrative and motivations we’ve been shown in other books of malcador and the emperor to support peturabos conclusion.

We’re these other books not written then I would agree with you but malcador says in plain English it was planned tonoff the legions and breaking the iron warriors in a pointless campaign goes a long way to achieve this, you may not agree, but it’s not misleading in anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Do the Hrud need to be fought? I've never heard of them invading anything or starting war. They just keep to themselves. So Perturabo being angry at he and his men being butchered in a needless fight to satisfy some tyrant seems pretty justified.

Yes they need killing off in terms of the imperium wanting to defend itself and conquer the galaxy, but this wasn’t that, the systems in question had no value whatsoever and these Hrud were no threat to the imperium, so I agree that peturabo had every right to be angry.

The worlds existed, and did not serve the Empire. At the time, wasn't that considered a threat to the Imperium?

Not that the truth of the Emperor's reasons matters here - really only Perturabo's belief of what his reasons were mattered.

pm713 wrote:
Do the Hrud need to be fought? I've never heard of them invading anything or starting war. They just keep to themselves. So Perturabo being angry at he and his men being butchered in a needless fight to satisfy some tyrant seems pretty justified.

I agree, but that isn't the same as them being sent there with the deliberate intention of having them ground down. Sanguinius didn't get upset that blood angels got massacred on Murder, and the megarachnids didn't pose any threat off world. Also, the hrud were travelling on an unknown migration route, meaning that they could potentially have popped up on a more significant, populated world that would have mattered.

 JamesY wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Do the Hrud need to be fought? I've never heard of them invading anything or starting war. They just keep to themselves. So Perturabo being angry at he and his men being butchered in a needless fight to satisfy some tyrant seems pretty justified.

I agree, but that isn't the same as them being sent there with the deliberate intention of having them ground down. Sanguinius didn't get upset that blood angels got massacred on Murder, and the megarachnids didn't pose any threat off world. Also, the hrud were travelling on an unknown migration route, meaning that they could potentially have popped up on a more significant, populated world that would have mattered.

Could also have been fine. There are at least two people who could have easily worked it out not that either did seeing as Big E both didn't try and didn't ask Magnus to try. The only real reason for Perturabo to have to engage in conflicts like that is to die. Considering that's par for the course with Perturabo he has every right to be angry enough to rebel.

Truthfully most Primarchs could have justifiably rebelled even if they didn't do it for the right reasons.

@Formosa I don't think that they sent pertuabo there to break the iron warriors, more to try and force them to learn that there are other ways to fight than just using attrition tactics. And just to be clear, I am not saying that you are wrong, only that the book doesn't explicitly state that they were deliberately sent there to be ground down. As you say, the inference has been drawn from multiple sources.

@pm713 again, my comment was never about whether or not he should have been angry about it.