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Hi,

I need help with my Dark Angels army. I have a friend who plays Alaitoc and I cannot do anything against his army. Last time he tabled me at turn 2 when I couldn't kill a signle of his model. He stacked Alaitoc -1 to hit, -1 for his rangers in cover, and both the psychic power and the stratagem that add -1 to hit on his Dark Reapers for a whooping -4 to hit with my heavy weapons. So ofc I couldn't kill his DR and they wrecked me a Dark Talon turn 1 and my Talonmaster turn 2 while his Fire Dragons DSed to destroy my Predator before embarking back in a Wave Serpent.

Anyway here are the major problems I have facing his army :
- the various malus to hit, meaning the majority of my usually gunline-type DA army is useless (Pred, Deva, Hellblasters)
- the power of his Dark Reapers that, if I don't address, kill one unit per turn, regrdless of its type (vehicle or infantry can be destroyed in one round of DR firing)

He usually runs 3-4 psykers (1-2 farseer + 1-2 warlocks) and they're a huge buff source, I mean they have so many good psychic powers : guide, doom, fortune, conceal/reveal, protect/jinx, quicken/restrain, and he almost always manages to pass them all since his warlord can re-roll failed psychic tests.

So I'm looking for advice on how to feth his gak up and I'm willing to ally even if it costs me as a Dark Angel
I thought of the following solutions :
- an HQless vanguard detachment of officio assassinorum, 2x Culexus to try and create a bubble that would prevent his psykers to cast efficiently and a Callidus for some CP fuckery.
- 4 2-man vet squads with flamers with lieutenants to re-roll 1s to wound, and 2 rhinos (in case he destroys one turn 1) that would rush him
- 3 multi-melta attack bikes to target its vehicles (he usually runs either a Wave Serpent or two Prisms) in three separate fast attack choice, making them annoying to target
- two characters with jump packs and Thunder Hammers to finish said vehicles
- keeping my Dark Talon as a threat, or if I start first, potentially destroy the reapers with the stasis bomb/hurricane bolters and threaten his vehicles <- I'm afraid that if I don't start first, it'll be destroyed straight away by the reapers, so is it worth it or not?

Do you have any insight or advices?
Do you think the following list could work, I think the body count is pretty low and I'm not sure there is enough firepower against his tanks.

Vanguard Detachment +0CP (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum)
Elites
Callidus Assassin
Culexus Assassin
Culexus Assassin

Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Dark Angels)
HQ
Master: Jump Pack, Chainsword, Thunder hammer

Fast Attack
Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad
• Ravenwing Attack Bike: Multi-melta

Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad
• Ravenwing Attack Bike: Multi-melta

Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad
• Ravenwing Attack Bike: Multi-melta

Flyer
Ravenwing Dark Talon

Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Dark Angels)
HQ
Lieutenant: Jump Pack, Chainsword, Thunder hammer

Elites
Company Veterans
• Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Flamer
• Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-flamer

Company Veterans
• Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Flamer
• Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-flamer

Company Veterans
• Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Flamer
• Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-flamer

Company Veterans
• Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Flamer
• Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-flamer

Dedicated Transport
Rhino
Rhino

Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Dark Angels)
HQ
Lieutenant: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun
Lieutenant: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

Troops
Scout Squad
• 5x Scout, Boltgun

Scout Squad
• 5x Scout, Boltgun

Scout Squad
• 5x Scout, Boltgun

You need to assault Alaitoc.

Martel732 wrote:
You need to assault Alaitoc.

What Dark Angel units would you recommend for that? If by assault you mean close, there's always the problem of them falling back next turn, popping a stratagem and firing back at you (generally enough to destroy a 5-man marines unit).

The knight terminators?

Shooting wise split fire against 2 targets so he can't simply protect with strategem against everything. If he uses strategem only half the unit gets hurt. Then rest of army gets to shoot elsewhere safely. Yes there's that 1 unit(dark reapers) most likely but that's what the assault element is. So assault deals with that 1 unit, shooting deals with other units that are -1 to hit, -2 with rangers, only.

That would be how I would approach with my shooty army(my main army being orks they don't worry too much about guns anyway. those aren't doing much anyway!)

I'm not sure how he is getting -4 to hit on his Dark Reapers. If something seems too powerful, make sure you read his Codex and verify for yourself. Oftentimes its not as bad as it seems and your overzealous opponent got excited and misread his codex.

Dark Reapers
- 1 Alaitoc over 12 inches
- 1 Conceal Warlock Power

That should be all he can get on Dark Reapers. -2. Nothing more. Its still really good mind you, but its something.

He cannot use the Stratagem Lightning Fast Reflexes on Dark Reapers because they do not have the FLY key word.
EDIT: My Mistake. Reapers can use this. Because it works on Infantry. That said, Flamers ignore all their bs!

Rangers should be capping out at -3 to hit, since they benefit from an additional -1 to hit native to them. Rangers also do very very low damage, especially to Space Marines who have bulkier characters so you are best off ignoring them unless a target of opportunity presents itself.

It should also be noted that post FAQ it is clarified that you cannot use the Fire and Maneuver Strategem to reimbark on a Wave Serpent. So its not like he can disembark, shoot, then fire and maneuver back onto a serpent, then use Lightning Fast Reflexes on the Serpent when you shoot at it.

and even then, Vehicles do not benefit from the Warlock Psychic Power Conceal!

EDIT:

Also if you want a good SM counter to Dark Reapers. Take a Drop Pod. Rules as Worded the Forwarn Strategy forces the Reapers to target the Drop Pod, not the units inside. No big deal for you. So you can whip a Drop Pod near his Reapers, disembark, and blast them within 12 inches. You'll lose the pod to the Reapers, but who cares. Just put something in it capable of neutering the Reaper Squad.

 akaean wrote:
I'm not sure how he is getting -4 to hit on his Dark Reapers. If something seems too powerful, make sure you read his Codex and verify for yourself. Oftentimes its not as bad as it seems and your overzealous opponent got excited and misread his codex.

Dark Reapers
- 1 Alaitoc over 12 inches
- 1 Conceal Warlock Power

That should be all he can get on Dark Reapers. -2. Nothing more. Its still really good mind you, but its something.

He cannot use the Stratagem Lightning Fast Reflexes on Dark Reapers because they do not have the FLY key word.

Rangers should be capping out at -3 to hit, since they benefit from an additional -1 to hit native to them. Rangers also do very very low damage, especially to Space Marines who have bulkier characters so you are best off ignoring them unless a target of opportunity presents itself.

It should also be noted that post FAQ it is clarified that you cannot use the Fire and Maneuver Strategem to reimbark on a Wave Serpent. So its not like he can disembark, shoot, then fire and maneuver back onto a serpent, then use Lightning Fast Reflexes on the Serpent when you shoot at it.

and even then, Vehicles do not benefit from the Warlock Psychic Power Conceal!

This all the way.

Also dark angels have the perfect tool to deal with this. Ravenwing bike squads. Take 2 squads of 3 guys with flamers / combi flamer and just run up the board at him. Flamers auto hits and really hits hard vs eldar armor.

But yeah, there is no way to get - 4. That's flat out reading it wrong.

What else is he running besides the Dark Reaper squad(s), Rangers and psykers?

While most heavy weapons will have the -4 to hit after moving, remember that things like Dark Talons drop that to -3, and if you are within 12” then that drops to -2 on the Dark Talon.

Best advice I can give in regards to the stacking is to do the following –

If he’s had a turn and managed to cast conceal on a unit, don’t target it unless you are within 12”.
As soon as he pops the Lightning Fast Reflexes stratagem, again, don’t target it unless you have to or are within 12”.

He won’t be able to jump the Fire Dragons into the Wave Serpent after shooting, due to the new beta rules and faq. If you don’t use the beta rules, the faq bit is in the main rulebook doc.

Q: Can units embark inside a transport in a phase other than the Movement phase, such as when they are using the Fire and Fade Stratagem from Codex: Craftworlds, or when a unit performs a Soulburst action to move again? A: No, unless the rule in question specifically states that the unit can embark inside a Transport.

As for the Rangers, ignore them. Best way to deal with them is to let him burn the cp and then deal with them in combat with the scouts. He has to use the stratagem at the start of the phase if he wants it (before you target anything).

Beyond that, you just need rate of fire imo. If you are struggling atm with all the to hit penalties, going in the direction of single shot multi-meltas isn’t going to do you any favours.
To that end, I’d look at things like normal bike squads or Inceptors (unless you can get scout bikes). A couple more Dark Talons won’t ever go amiss either.

Combat wise, you can use Terminators if you want, or you could ram some black knights into his transports in combat. You’re not going to be 1 shotting anything in combat most of the time, but wounds add up, and it brings you closer, physically, to removing the Dark Reapers.

At most, he will be getting a -3 to hit on 1 infantry or bike squad a turn before your movement modifiers, and then also having 1 ranger unit being hit on 6s. Beyond that, the rest of his army is pretty fair game.

Close in fast and be in a position to threaten multiple units.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 akaean wrote:
I'm not sure how he is getting -4 to hit on his Dark Reapers. If something seems too powerful, make sure you read his Codex and verify for yourself. Oftentimes its not as bad as it seems and your overzealous opponent got excited and misread his codex.

Dark Reapers
- 1 Alaitoc over 12 inches
- 1 Conceal Warlock Power

That should be all he can get on Dark Reapers. -2. Nothing more. Its still really good mind you, but its something.

He cannot use the Stratagem Lightning Fast Reflexes on Dark Reapers because they do not have the FLY key word.
EDIT: My Mistake. Reapers can use this. Because it works on Infantry. That said, Flamers ignore all their bs!

I think the 4th -1 to hit was coming from his penalty to hit when moving and firing heavy weapons.

Rangers will be
-2 outside of 12”
-3 with conceal
-4 with lightning fast reflexes

However, conceal and lfr is a waste on them, as you can just pop the Alaitoc stratagem and have them get hit on flat 6s for 1CP.

It is tough for Dark Angel who actually perform better in shooting than assault. Black Knights might be good with the advance and shoot / charge, but I think they might be lack the punch, not hitting hard enough to kill those Eldars in one round. Blood Angel might do better.

1) Use lots of scouts. Five man squads, bare bones with a power sword for the sergeant. Give CC weapons to half of the squads

2) Use rhinos. They are fast, durable, can protect you a little bit if he gets first turn. And they can assault. They don't do any damage in CC, but having your rangers, jetbikes or dark reapers charged by a rhino is extremely annoying.

3) Don't try to outshoot him, because you will not be able to.

4) Culexus assassins are Please don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n
5) Scout bikes are pretty decent, but you need to get in his face with them.

I found that Bikes with flamers (you can run 3 of them in a min bike squad) I run 2 because I hate Eldar.

I also like 1 squad of Vets with storm bolters in a pod to chew up Dark Reapers on the drop. Will have to wait till turn 2 though.

Dark Talons... I run 2. Always good to get to them within 12" range.

Assault. Jump pack Masters and Lts do a decent job.

CypherF wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You need to assault Alaitoc.

What Dark Angel units would you recommend for that? If by assault you mean close, there's always the problem of them falling back next turn, popping a stratagem and firing back at you (generally enough to destroy a 5-man marines unit).

That's the problem, unfortunately. They need to die when you assault them.

 akaean wrote:
I'm not sure how he is getting -4 to hit on his Dark Reapers.
Rangers should be capping out at -3 to hit, since they benefit from an additional -1 to hit native to them. Rangers also do very very low damage, especially to Space Marines who have bulkier characters so you are best off ignoring them unless a target of opportunity presents itself.

Both rangers and Dark Reapers can theoretically go down to -4 against moving heavy weapons, which I wont be fielding against him anymore and yeah I don't really care about his rangers it's just that at that moment of the game, I could only hit DR at -4 (so, not at all) and the only visible targets were Rangers at -3 (-1 Alaitoc, -1 cover and -1 moving heavy) but that was due to my bad deployment strategy.

 akaean wrote:
It should also be noted that post FAQ it is clarified that you cannot use the Fire and Maneuver Strategem to reimbark on a Wave Serpent. So its not like he can disembark, shoot, then fire and maneuver back onto a serpent, then use Lightning Fast Reflexes on the Serpent when you shoot at it.

Thank you so much for that clarification!!

 akaean wrote:
Also if you want a good SM counter to Dark Reapers. Take a Drop Pod. Rules as Worded the Forwarn Strategy forces the Reapers to target the Drop Pod, not the units inside.

I thought about that but there's a bit debate about the unit inside the drop pod which would or wouldn't be counted as reinforcements as well, allowing the enemy player to target them just like the drop pod, and as far as I know, no FAQs have clarified that yet?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:
What else is he running besides the Dark Reaper squad(s), Rangers and psykers?

2 Dire Avengers squads and 1 regular Guardians squad, Fire Dragons, Prisms, Wave Serpent.

Kdash wrote:
Combat wise, you can use Terminators if you want, or you could ram some black knights into his transports in combat. You’re not going to be 1 shotting anything in combat most of the time, but wounds add up, and it brings you closer, physically, to removing the Dark Reapers.

PRoblem with the terminators is that either I pop them in his sight and he can "Auspex Scan" them or I hide them, they can't shoot and he's likely to move away during his turn so I can't assault him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
The knight terminators?

But he can target them when they land, and I feel like the charge is a big gamble for suh an expensive unit, isn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
It is tough for Dark Angel who actually perform better in shooting than assault. Black Knights might be good with the advance and shoot / charge, but I think they might be lack the punch, not hitting hard enough to kill those Eldars in one round. Blood Angel might do better.

Black Knight are very expensive and not that resistant, they might do a fair amount of damage but they'd be gone next turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:
Culexus assassins are ****

Why?

Read the FAQs.

Some rules – such as Early Warning Override in Codex: T’au
Empire, the Ever Vigilant Stratagem in Codex: Adeptus
Custodes, and the Auspex Scan Stratagem in Codex: Space
Marines – allow units to shoot at enemy units that have just
arrived on the battlefield as reinforcements, as if it were the
Shooting phase.
Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements is a Character,
can the firing unit shoot at it even if it is not the closest
enemy unit?
A: No – unless the firing unit is using a weapon that
allows them to target a Character even if it is not the
closest enemy unit. This takes place ‘as if it were the
Shooting phase’, so all the normal restrictions of the
Shooting phase still apply.
Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements has another unit
embarked inside it which must disembark after it has been
set up (such as units embarked within a Drop Pod, or
a Tyrannocyte), can the firing unit shoot at the unit as
it disembarks?
A: No – though the unit can shoot at the Drop Pod/
Tyrannocyte before the units inside disembark.

 p5freak wrote:
Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements is a Character,
can the firing unit shoot at it even if it is not the closest
enemy unit?
A: No – unless the firing unit is using a weapon that
allows them to target a Character even if it is not the
closest enemy unit. This takes place ‘as if it were the
Shooting phase’, so all the normal restrictions of the
Shooting phase still apply.
Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements has another unit
embarked inside it which must disembark after it has been
set up (such as units embarked within a Drop Pod, or
a Tyrannocyte), can the firing unit shoot at the unit as
it disembarks?
A: No – though the unit can shoot at the Drop Pod/
Tyrannocyte before the units inside disembark.

Aahh sorry I went through pages of posts here https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/744062.page and it seemed the FAQs hadn't clarified the situation yet. Thank you very much.

Being in cover doesn't give -1 to hit. It increases armour value by one. Fyi.

So -1 from Alaitoc, - 1 from lightning reflexes (2cp), and -1 from conceal, all good. 3 bikers with flamers advance and fire with the flamers auto hitting and still kill reapers. Otherwise let him waste his command points and conceal and shoot something else. Dev squad with 4 heavy bolters, an armored cherub, and the srg can wreck eldar at 36", just hit them with numbers of shots.

I would hit him with numbers personally. Tactical squads in rhinos, drop pods with veterans, devs with missile launchers so they don't have to move to get in range, bikes with flamers (3 squads of 3), scouts, and such. Don't give him any one big juicy target to hit, make him shoot at generic stuff that doesn't matter much.

I am not saying it's an easy match up, but I am confident you can make it an even one.

Xirax wrote:
Being in cover doesn't give -1 to hit. It increases armour value by one. Fyi.

Eldar Rangers get -1 to hit and +2 to armor save while in cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
So -1 from Alaitoc, - 1 from lightning reflexes (2cp), and -1 from conceal, all good. 3 bikers with flamers advance and fire with the flamers auto hitting and still kill reapers. Otherwise let him waste his command points and conceal and shoot something else. Dev squad with 4 heavy bolters, an armored cherub, and the srg can wreck eldar at 36", just hit them with numbers of shots.

Hum just some stats, 4 heavy bolters, including 1 firing twice thanks to the cherub, at 2+ with the signum, and the rest at 3+, targetting a unit of dark reapers at -3 to hit do an average of 0.777 wounds. And that's not counting the hypothetic Fortune casted on them that (FNP 5+, reducing the result to about 0.5). So I really don't think a gunline unit is the way to go. Bikes with flamers sound better though ^^

PRoblem with the terminators is that either I pop them in his sight and he can "Auspex Scan" them or I hide them, they can't shoot and he's likely to move away during his turn so I can't assault him.

DA can sort of counter play this. The deathwing assault stratagem hits before he can react with his own stratagem.

My bad on the eldar rangers cover..

Have you considered the talonmaster, it negates all cover saves, that with RW plasma bikers or plasmatalons should make a mess?

Xirax wrote:
Have you considered the talonmaster, it negates all cover saves, that with RW plasma bikers or plasmatalons should make a mess?

Yep I already play one it's pretty nasty

Okay so I have a lot of options to deal with his troops thanks to you, however I don't really know how to deal with his vehicles. What do you think of melta attack bikes? Or speeders? What about characters with jump packs and Thunder Hammers?

Chars with thunder hammers are surely the best solution to wave serpents. In CC they have no damage reduction or hit penalties (minus the stratagem, he can still use that).

In general, Alaitoc lists are built to counter gunlines, so you win if you can overrun them in assault.

Something really fun you can do to abuse Dark Angels, is loading Rhinos with Chapter champions, those free caliban blades really rock!

It sounds like he plays roughly the same way every time. You have two options; social and tactical. The social approach is to explain the situation to him, that you don't like being tabled in turn 2 repetitively. You could try some options like handicaps, swapping armies, etc.

From a tactical perspective, it sounds like you have all the information you need to beat him. You're in a list-building contest right now.

First threaten him with multiple units so that he has to decide which to focus on.

With all the hit modifiers, it sounds like you need to focus on CC and auto-hit weapons. For example, run a unit of landspeeders with dual heavy flamers up to the dark reapers, use a whirlwind for heavy support, then use Data Link Telemetry to hit him with both the heavy flamers and a whirlwind salvo in the same turn.

I'm assuming 4 dark reapers and an exarch, armed with the regular dark reaper launcher.

With a 3+ BS and 4 dark reapers, and 1 dark reaper exarch you're looking at 5.3 hits from the reapers and 1.55 hits from the exarch. Of those, you should expect 3.44 to generate wounds. Saving on a 5+ with the AP of a starswarm, you should expect 2.3 successful wounds, resulting in an average of 4.6 damage, which is insufficient to bring down a single landspeeder, let alone a unit of 3, but let's assume you lose one.

With a 20" move and an average of 3.5" of advancing on the first turn, you should be in range of the heavy flamers on turn 2. Then, he'll get an additional surprise with the whirlwind's salvo. You're looking at 4D6 of auto-hitting S5 AP-1 flamer fire and an additional 2D6 of S6 missiles.

Against the dark reapers, the remaining 4 heavy flamers should produce 4.5 wounds, which is not quite enough to one-shot the squad. If you're lucky and he's not, you might not even need the whirlwind to mop up.

Of course, if his whole army focuses on your land speeders, they won't last. Give them something else to worry about. Walk a dreadnought right up the middle as a distraction carnifex.

Deepstriking some terminators might help too.

You can also try to cause some early havoc by using Orbital Bombardment. Normally, this isn't a great stratagem, due to the high cost, but with all the hit modifiers going around, it might be worthwhile to generate some mortal wounds that don't depend on a normal hit roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and against all those grav tanks, consider taking a stormhawk interceptor. It will force him to decide between losing his grav tanks and attacking the landspeeders, which is exactly the kind of tactical catch-22 you want to force.

On a side note, not sure if Fire & Fade can be used to embark anymore since the FAQ. Embarking happens in the movement phase, F&F is in the shooting phase.

 Weazel wrote:
On a side note, not sure if Fire & Fade can be used to embark anymore since the FAQ. Embarking happens in the movement phase, F&F is in the shooting phase.

In fact you can't.

Annirak wrote:
With a 3+ BS and 4 dark reapers, and 1 dark reaper exarch you're looking at 5.3 hits from the reapers and 1.55 hits from the exarch. Of those, you should expect 3.44 to generate wounds. Saving on a 5+ with the AP of a starswarm, you should expect 2.3 successful wounds, resulting in an average of 4.6 damage, which is insufficient to bring down a single landspeeder, let alone a unit of 3, but let's assume you lose one.

I'm not sure about the math, last time he played 7 Dark Reapers including the exarch and he destroyed my Dark Talon (10W T6 3+) in 1 turn.

CypherF wrote:

Annirak wrote:
With a 3+ BS and 4 dark reapers, and 1 dark reaper exarch you're looking at 5.3 hits from the reapers and 1.55 hits from the exarch. Of those, you should expect 3.44 to generate wounds. Saving on a 5+ with the AP of a starswarm, you should expect 2.3 successful wounds, resulting in an average of 4.6 damage, which is insufficient to bring down a single landspeeder, let alone a unit of 3, but let's assume you lose one.

I'm not sure about the math, last time he played 7 Dark Reapers including the exarch and he destroyed my Dark Talon (10W T6 3+) in 1 turn.

Reapers will likely always 100% kill things like Dark Talons and Landspeeders in one go.

Always hitting on a 3+ regardless of modifiers, have easy access to re-rolls and have 1 shot str 8 -3ap 3dmg weapons.

Re-rolling all hits via guide, 7 Reapers will do an average of 10.31 dmg a turn to anything T5, 6 or 7. When only re-rolling 1’s they do 9.074 damage, and with no re-rolls 7.778.

I think his maths was using the 2nd profile of the Reaper weapon which is 2 shots, str 5, -2 2dmg.

Kdash wrote:

CypherF wrote:

Annirak wrote:
With a 3+ BS and 4 dark reapers, and 1 dark reaper exarch you're looking at 5.3 hits from the reapers and 1.55 hits from the exarch. Of those, you should expect 3.44 to generate wounds. Saving on a 5+ with the AP of a starswarm, you should expect 2.3 successful wounds, resulting in an average of 4.6 damage, which is insufficient to bring down a single landspeeder, let alone a unit of 3, but let's assume you lose one.

I'm not sure about the math, last time he played 7 Dark Reapers including the exarch and he destroyed my Dark Talon (10W T6 3+) in 1 turn.

Reapers will likely always 100% kill things like Dark Talons and Landspeeders in one go.

Always hitting on a 3+ regardless of modifiers, have easy access to re-rolls and have 1 shot str 8 -3ap 3dmg weapons.

Re-rolling all hits via guide, 7 Reapers will do an average of 10.31 dmg a turn to anything T5, 6 or 7. When only re-rolling 1’s they do 9.074 damage, and with no re-rolls 7.778.

I think his maths was using the 2nd profile of the Reaper weapon which is 2 shots, str 5, -2 2dmg.

Can you detail the maths, it's different from my calculations:
1 shot, 3+ reroll all failed = 2/3 + 1/3 * 2/3 = 0.888 hits
wounds on 3+ = 0.592 wounds
Sv 3+ AP-2 -> Sv 5+ = 0.395 unsaved
3 damages = 1.185 damages
x7 Dark Reapers = 8.296 damages total

With starshot missiles, he needs at least 4 unsaved wounds to down your Dark Talon.

With Starshot,
DRs: 6 * 1 * 4/6 -- heavy 1, hitting on 3+
DRE: 1 * (4/6 + 1/6*4/6) -- heavy 1, hitting on 3+, rerolling 1's

Expected hits: 4.77.

Wounds:
4.77 * 4/6 -- wounding on 3+
Expected wounds: 3.18
Saving on 5+, that means 2 successful wounds, for 6 damage.

He must have had good rolls.

Now, if the exarch has an Aelderi missile launcher, that changes the stats a little, but not much. It mostly means that the quality of the rolls matter more.


Working out the odds of rolling 4 or more hits is pretty non-trivial, especially with that exarch reroll.

CypherF wrote:

Kdash wrote:

CypherF wrote:

Annirak wrote:
With a 3+ BS and 4 dark reapers, and 1 dark reaper exarch you're looking at 5.3 hits from the reapers and 1.55 hits from the exarch. Of those, you should expect 3.44 to generate wounds. Saving on a 5+ with the AP of a starswarm, you should expect 2.3 successful wounds, resulting in an average of 4.6 damage, which is insufficient to bring down a single landspeeder, let alone a unit of 3, but let's assume you lose one.

I'm not sure about the math, last time he played 7 Dark Reapers including the exarch and he destroyed my Dark Talon (10W T6 3+) in 1 turn.

Reapers will likely always 100% kill things like Dark Talons and Landspeeders in one go.

Always hitting on a 3+ regardless of modifiers, have easy access to re-rolls and have 1 shot str 8 -3ap 3dmg weapons.

Re-rolling all hits via guide, 7 Reapers will do an average of 10.31 dmg a turn to anything T5, 6 or 7. When only re-rolling 1’s they do 9.074 damage, and with no re-rolls 7.778.

I think his maths was using the 2nd profile of the Reaper weapon which is 2 shots, str 5, -2 2dmg.

Can you detail the maths, it's different from my calculations:
1 shot, 3+ reroll all failed = 2/3 + 1/3 * 2/3 = 0.888 hits
wounds on 3+ = 0.592 wounds
Sv 3+ AP-2 -> Sv 5+ = 0.395 unsaved
3 damages = 1.185 damages
x7 Dark Reapers = 8.296 damages total

Oops, is 8.296 dmg for 7 shots... Dunno why i thought the str 8 shots were -3 ap (which is where the extra dmg is coming from).

Annirak wrote:
With starshot missiles, he needs at least 4 unsaved wounds to down your Dark Talon.

With Starshot,
DRs: 6 * 1 * 4/6 -- heavy 1, hitting on 3+
DRE: 1 * (4/6 + 1/6*4/6) -- heavy 1, hitting on 3+, rerolling 1's

Expected hits: 4.77.

Wounds:
4.77 * 4/6 -- wounding on 3+
Expected wounds: 3.18
Saving on 5+, that means 2 successful wounds, for 6 damage.

He must have had good rolls.

Now, if the exarch has an Aelderi missile launcher, that changes the stats a little, but not much. It mostly means that the quality of the rolls matter more.


Working out the odds of rolling 4 or more hits is pretty non-trivial, especially with that exarch reroll.

He's using guide on them most of the time anyway, so doing near 8-9 damages with them per turn on average, and even if that doesn't destroy the Dark Talon right away that maked it almost useless for the rest of the battle, so I'm hesitating to put so many points in a single model vs him.