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Kdash wrote:
Only the reapers ignore it though, the rest of the army won't.

I can never make up my mind if its better to have a unit buffing other unit's defense than just more units dealing damage, like for the price, about 6 scout bike squad that can deal about 40 shots.

Kdash wrote:
So, for 312 points, you get 3 landspeeders with heavy flamers that will move, on average 23” on the first turn. (Your loadout comes to 281 points) Add on the 104 points for the Whirlwind (without Hunter Killer) and you’re looking at 385 and 1 CP (potentially 2 if you need to re-roll the advance distance). And, then a 3rd if you then want to fire the weapons on the Speeders.

It is a really big investment to essentially kill 1 Dark Reaper hiding in cover at the back of the table. If you then want to add in a Lieutenant, you now kill 2 units, but, at a cost of 385 + a basic Lieutenant.

Actually 3 land speeders with twin heavy flamers will kill 7 reapers on average, no help needed. Other eldar infantry squads/bikers/hqs are quite flammable as well. 3 21-26" moving 4++ sv speeders with 6 heavy flamers between them could be quite a threat to his army, assuming the rest of your army is also applying some pressure/killing stuff/being a must-kill priority.

Edit: assault alaitoc with anything whenever you can btw. Even basic space marines can beat up non-melee aspect warriors. Just try to lock a few models in so they can't fall back (and this obviously doesn't apply to models with <FLY&gt

shortymcnostrill wrote:

Kdash wrote:
So, for 312 points, you get 3 landspeeders with heavy flamers that will move, on average 23” on the first turn. (Your loadout comes to 281 points) Add on the 104 points for the Whirlwind (without Hunter Killer) and you’re looking at 385 and 1 CP (potentially 2 if you need to re-roll the advance distance). And, then a 3rd if you then want to fire the weapons on the Speeders.

It is a really big investment to essentially kill 1 Dark Reaper hiding in cover at the back of the table. If you then want to add in a Lieutenant, you now kill 2 units, but, at a cost of 385 + a basic Lieutenant.

Actually 3 land speeders with twin heavy flamers will kill 7 reapers on average, no help needed. Other eldar infantry squads/bikers/hqs are quite flammable as well. 3 21-26" moving 4++ sv speeders with 6 heavy flamers between them could be quite a threat to his army, assuming the rest of your army is also applying some pressure/killing stuff/being a must-kill priority.

Edit: assault alaitoc with anything whenever you can btw. Even basic space marines can beat up non-melee aspect warriors. Just try to lock a few models in so they can't fall back (and this obviously doesn't apply to models with <FLY&gt

But 3 landspeeders with flamers will never ever be in range to kill 7 Dark Reapers turn 1.

Kdash wrote:


But 3 landspeeders with flamers will never ever be in range to kill 7 Dark Reapers turn 1.

Depends on whether you have turn 1 or not. A 3 landspeeder unit has 20" move, plus 8" weapon range. If you can hide them out of LOS, they can survive turn 1, if you dont go first.

I can't hide 3 Land Speeders and I can't guarantee that i'll go first. If I don't I'm sure that he'll blast at least one of them, meaning they'll only move 16", meaning they won't catch the DR turn 1. I say it's too big a gamble for 300+ points.

if you use librarians you can target the reapers with combat powers like smite. All the hit modifiers in the world won't stop mortal wounds.

You can also try a rhino rush on him. 4 rhinos, 8 five man tactical squads each with a combi flamer on the srg, just ram them into his face. Basic marines and basic rhinos leave no optimum targets to hit. Then take bikers and hqs on bikes like librarians and go for the eyes so to speak. Finally sniper scouts. They are not the best but vs warlocks they are quite effective, take 3 squads of 5 and put them in cover. He can not conceal with the warlocks dead and reapers will die to concentrated bolter fire. You should be able to get some flamers in range with that kind of list.

It looks like this has been pretty well covered, but I'll throw my advice into the ring. I've been having a similar problem with my Imperial Guard, made even worse by them starting at BS4.

Eldar hate units that can get in their face.
Eldar hate units that can shut down psychic powers.
Eldar (reapers) hate units with good invuls.

So I dug into the rest of my Imperial collection and added in some friends.

Celestine with both Gemini is a absolute monster, and all you need is a patrol to unlock that glorious deny on a 4+ stratagem.

3 Custodes Captains on bikes are another easy drop in that give Eldar a ton of trouble, however they are CP hungry. They really like having two relics and Victor of the Blood Games on as many as you can.

I run these two next to a Cadian Brigade for CP, against Eldar the Cadians (aside from Pask) really suffer, but the Characters can almost shoulder the whole game themselves while the Guardsmen grab objectives.

 p5freak wrote:

Kdash wrote:


But 3 landspeeders with flamers will never ever be in range to kill 7 Dark Reapers turn 1.

Depends on whether you have turn 1 or not. A 3 landspeeder unit has 20" move, plus 8" weapon range. If you can hide them out of LOS, they can survive turn 1, if you dont go first.

Even that does not quarantee especially against long range units. And dark reapers have 48". They don't have to conviniently deploy on deployment zone. 24" between armies, even if you are playing with wide deployment zones that means 12" deployment zone. Deploying 4.5" away from deployment line leaves him 7.5" deep section to deploy and 28.5" to nearest unit assuming it's deployed straight ahead. If not(say land speeders had to deploy first...) even more.

And 28.5" to your deployment line means those dark reapers with their 48" guns can shoot practically anywhere anyway...On good boards terrain and with that LOS is going to become more of issue than range.

And if you want to protect them in case of 2nd turn you are rarely able to put them out of LOS unless you have custom build terrain set up in your favour.

How is this going to be any fun for either of you to have a game again, if you are recruiting the might of the internet to list tailor for you because you can't seem to do it yourself?

Think about the concepts of what makes his list strong, yes, but all you really need to do against alatioc is advance up into his face, giving yourself an invuln save, getting inside of 12" to remove his ONE defining trait, and continue to play your TAC list without feeling bad about yourself, ya filthy astartes. :p His list isn't specially tailored to beat yours, he's playing a fairly fluffy and standard eldar list. I'd be really anooyed with a guy, no matter how close of friends we were if he spent this much time and effort just trying to give himself an edge in the list building phase list this. I could understand learning from your previous failures, and making tactical and small tweaks, but seeing an entirely new army being unpacked would 100% cause me to grab one of my other armies out of the box.

TLDR: List tailoring is only a reasonble tactic in competitive scenes, to counter overly oppressive meta armies that you expect to see, not to use against your friends because your tactics are poor....

That's not even list tailoring. That's playing the meta. It can backfire spectacularly.

I also have a good friend who plays eldar, and struggled a lot against them with my DAs. Then I came up with a list like that:

Azrael
Lieutnant

Company Ancient

2x 5 Intercessors
3x 5 Scouts

1x 10 Hellblasters

Sammael

3x Bike squad with 3 Flamers


Scouts infiltrated as near as possible in cover, and from turn 1 onwards, you just need to walk everything forward until you can get into melee range. Hellblasters & Intercessors try to stay in Azzy-Lieutnant-Ancient-bubble for some sweet buffs. Bikes can act independantly because of auto hit flamers. And belive me, even your humble intercessors can be a pain for eldar infantry if they get near enough to punch them ;-)

That list went pretty well for me. Just remember that you dont have to be a static gunline, and while your guys may prefer to shoot, they still can be a threat to most other gunline armies in melee.

I can not speak for others but I wasn't suggesting list tailoring with the flamer bikes. I take a squad whenever I play my da's. And I have had success with a single land speeder w/ flamers and a whirlwind, no one ever targets them first because there are much tougher things on the field that has priority, like a land raider crusader and plasma cannon devs.

Also there is nothing wrong asking for help on here, that's kind of one of the reasons forums exist.

 jjb070707 wrote:
How is this going to be any fun for either of you to have a game again, if you are recruiting the might of the internet to list tailor for you because you can't seem to do it yourself?

Think about the concepts of what makes his list strong, yes, but all you really need to do against alatioc is advance up into his face, giving yourself an invuln save, getting inside of 12" to remove his ONE defining trait, and continue to play your TAC list without feeling bad about yourself, ya filthy astartes. :p His list isn't specially tailored to beat yours, he's playing a fairly fluffy and standard eldar list. I'd be really anooyed with a guy, no matter how close of friends we were if he spent this much time and effort just trying to give himself an edge in the list building phase list this. I could understand learning from your previous failures, and making tactical and small tweaks, but seeing an entirely new army being unpacked would 100% cause me to grab one of my other armies out of the box.

TLDR: List tailoring is only a reasonble tactic in competitive scenes, to counter overly oppressive meta armies that you expect to see, not to use against your friends because your tactics are poor....

Ah so it's mkay to copy hardcore list but not for others to ask heip against iu. Gotcha. You want to curb stomp opponents

Easy answer:

Stage one: renounce your false god emperor and except the glory of the true Gods of Chaos

Stage two: laugh manically as you unpack your army of Heldrakes. (maybe some infantry so you don't auto lose.).