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It seems like the big winners here are Death Jesters, which now 100% have a place in any kind of quin list that uses any melee, and troupes, which now have a lot of great new tricks to actually kill things and keep things in melee. Stop Hitting Yourself solitaire got a nice boost as well, and troupe masters now have a new best relic weapon option (IMO at least) in the twilights fang.

Troupes got a large boost in stratagems too. Quins power level for sure took a step up, but in a good way.

I am really torn on these. On the one hand, I like the concept of new character-focused abilities, and there is some nifty stuff in there, especially for death jesters, who just went from zero to hero.

There are some great relics there too. But we're still limited to two extra relics - and still stuck paying 3CP for it - inexplicably not getting the "1CP per additional relic" strat modern codexes get. Would it really have been too hard to update that?

The strats are mostly good, but extremely CP-heavy, for an army that was already very CP-reliant. The +1 damage goes a long way to making troupes capable of taking on 2W infantry, but 2CP is a lot to pay for that.

And there's nothing to make mono quins more viable. In fact, by focusing so much on only-on-one character abilities and stratagems - also limited to once a phase - these changes only exacerbate quins as a soup detachment rather than a viable separate army.

What quins desperately needed wasn't more reasons to take them as a detachment in eldar soup - that was already very attractive and now will be almost mandatory - it was a reason to actually take them as a mono army. By ignoring base rule improvements in favor of stuff that only works on a single unit, these rule go in precisely the opposite direction.

I more like the fact that a Solitaire can become unhittable now. Combine with Suit of Knives for even more hilarity.

Also I know the Deathwatch are charged with eliminating Xenos, but I didn't think they'd go so far as to break the fourth wall to sabotage one of their stratagems.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I more like the fact that a Solitaire can become unhittable now. Combine with Suit of Knives for even more hilarity.

Also I know the Deathwatch are charged with eliminating Xenos, but I didn't think they'd go so far as to break the fourth wall to sabotage one of their stratagems.

-1 from new rule thingy, -1 from lightning reflexes, -1 from veil of tears, -1 to hit on enemy unit with fog of dreams...what am I missing, that would turn a 6 into a 2.

The new shrieker relic is pretty wild. More range than curtainfall and flat 3 damage on the shrieker profile (though -1STR and can't use the +1STR strat) and flat -3AP on both. Combined with the new role, if you're shooting a unit of 6, that's going to typically be 3 S6 -3 3D hits, each of which causes another 1d3 mortal wounds for each shot that kills - that's pretty crazy for a 45 point model. Also - and I'm sure this will be FAQed - RAW the -2LD from this relic stacks with the -2LD from a normal shrieker or curtainfall (curtainfall specifically says it doesn't stack, this one says nothing about it, so RAW it does stack). Or if you run it dreaming shadow with the sniper role, that's a 48 inch range character sniping rifle that for 1CP hits twice for each hit (or three hits on a 6). That's 6D worth of shots (whether 2 3D or 6 1D) at -3AP plus the fish for mortal wounds and ignoring cover, which will statistically kill most characters without an invuln in one round, and force your opponent to play carefully even with characters that do have invulns because there's always a chance they fail that save and poof goes the character. Normally I am not a fan of snipers but for 45 points and no need to commit until you see your opponent's army I think this will see a lot of play.

The domino shroud looks potentially very powerful too, because you can activate it at the end of any phase - meaning you can actually teleport the bearer out of combat at the end of your opponent's charge phase after your opponent charges you. You can also use this at the end of your opponent's shooting phase to teleport then heroically intervene in their charge phase - it disables charging if you use it in your turn and requires you to set up 1 inch away from enemy models, but doesn't say anything about heroically intervening if you end up within 3 inches of an enemy model. You could gate out during their charge phase and then heroically intervene, but both effects happen at the end of the turn, and your opponent gets to chose the resolution order, so they can prevent you from doing that - but as long as you do it at the end of the shooting phase you're fine.

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I more like the fact that a Solitaire can become unhittable now. Combine with Suit of Knives for even more hilarity.

Also I know the Deathwatch are charged with eliminating Xenos, but I didn't think they'd go so far as to break the fourth wall to sabotage one of their stratagems.

-1 from new rule thingy, -1 from lightning reflexes, -1 from veil of tears, -1 to hit on enemy unit with fog of dreams...what am I missing, that would turn a 6 into a 2.

Drain from an allied Craftworlds detachment, since Drain affects the target unit and not the Solitaire itself, they suffer -1 to hit even though the Solitaire isn't Craftworlds. Also works if the enemy is dumb enough to use their Powerfist or Thunder Hammers instead of the base profile CCW.

Suit of hidden knives is situational though, the opponent isn't required to pile in so with clever casualty removal you won't inflict crap for damage unless your trying to hunt characters, an even then, not sure it's worth the investment since they had to already survive the solitaires attacks.

I will concede that it is funny in certain situations if your making Dante of Abby hit themselves, but that is so many moving parts. Three psychic powers from two factions plus 2 cp.

Personally I'd rather blitz and use murderous assault with those 2 CP and just wreck the guy, consolidate 6 (midnight sorrow) then I can either consolidate again 6" for 1cp or I can use the Domino to blink out of site.

Just him being -2 is enough for him to be really scary tho. Not only is he -2 to be hit, but a 3++ and a melee monster. Having any relic on him at that point is going to work.

Suit of Knives IMO is for sure gimmicky, but vs some units even if only 3 gets to fight it'll completely destroy that unit (DC, Genestealers or Abs, Shining Spears, etc..)

The best thing about suit of knives, and all of these changes, is that you don't have to commit to it until you know precisely what army you are facing. You don't take it (or the new -1 to hit instead of blitz) as a base choice, but it's an option there as a potential counter for certain armies.

Honestly, this is the best thing about these changes - literally everything in them can be tailored to your specific opponent and costs you nothing in terms of prior commitment. The only thing I can see that does require some prior commitment is the power sword relic - if you want to preserve the option, you have your gimp your troupe master's melee ability if you don't take it. But even that is only a loss of 1S vs the embrace he'd probably otherwise have, which is not that big a deal for the option to take a relic that turns him into an actual combat threat, something he just didn't have in his locker before.

That said, a solitaire really isn't much of a melee monster by modern standards. Being stuck at S4/5, -1/-2AP, and 1/1d3 damage really limits his ability in a world where melee units with 2+ saves and/or multiple wounds are a thing. Even with the Rose, he's very limited in the targets he can threaten compared to, say, a smash captain. Even with the rose he can't really hurt centurions, for example, or sanguinary guard.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The best thing about suit of knives, and all of these changes, is that you don't have to commit to it until you know precisely what army you are facing. You don't take it (or the new -1 to hit instead of blitz) as a base choice, but it's an option there as a potential counter for certain armies.

Honestly, this is the best thing about these changes - literally everything in them can be tailored to your specific opponent and costs you nothing in terms of prior commitment. The only thing I can see that does require some prior commitment is the power sword relic - if you want to preserve the option, you have your gimp your troupe master's melee ability if you don't take it. But even that is only a loss of 1S vs the embrace he'd probably otherwise have, which is not that big a deal for the option to take a relic that turns him into an actual combat threat, something he just didn't have in his locker before.

I think there's actually an argument to be made that you take the power sword on him for that reason - if you don't take the Fang, you're still S3 AP-3 D1 reroll wounds, which isn't terrible for his 64pt cost.

There is solo the mental fight going on. They might do eveything they can to stay away from it with the Suit. So you could force your opponent to move where you want them to and to play how you want them to play.

Imagine a CWE player with 2x6 Shining Spears, there is no way he will get near that guy, hitting on 5+, not wanting to use re-rolls to hit (so no guide) could force him to stay away as he is extremely fast.

the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The best thing about suit of knives, and all of these changes, is that you don't have to commit to it until you know precisely what army you are facing. You don't take it (or the new -1 to hit instead of blitz) as a base choice, but it's an option there as a potential counter for certain armies.

Honestly, this is the best thing about these changes - literally everything in them can be tailored to your specific opponent and costs you nothing in terms of prior commitment. The only thing I can see that does require some prior commitment is the power sword relic - if you want to preserve the option, you have your gimp your troupe master's melee ability if you don't take it. But even that is only a loss of 1S vs the embrace he'd probably otherwise have, which is not that big a deal for the option to take a relic that turns him into an actual combat threat, something he just didn't have in his locker before.

I think there's actually an argument to be made that you take the power sword on him for that reason - if you don't take the Fang, you're still S3 AP-3 D1 reroll wounds, which isn't terrible for his 64pt cost.

You definitely take the power sword on him, there's no doubt about that. The 4 points for the -3AP is well worth it, and you only end up -1S vs what you'd be with an embrace. So the commitment cost there is pretty minor too.

And with the relic, a troupe master can actually threaten elite multi-wound melee, which the solitaire just can't - -3AP 2D is massively better for taking out high-save, multi-wound infantry than anything a solitaire can do, even with the Rose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, I hadn't really looked carefully at Twilit (yay spelling) Encore - that is super powerful, because unlike the white scars version you can end your consolidate back within combat range, and you can also use it even if you're still in combat with something else - even if you're based, because it says you can end closer to either the closest model or the unit that's falling back. That's crazily powerful for 1CP. Most units are simply not going to be able to get out of combat with a troupe unit now, and the implications this has against armies like T'au are immense, especially if your troupe is silent shroud and can ignore overwatch to get in in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly, the more I look at this package, the more insanely powerful it is. I am genuinely afraid of what this is likely to do to the already-very-powerful eldar soup MSU expert crafters list. I doubt some of the stuff in here - like being able to jump out of combat before they hit back, fight again, and then jump out AGAIN - is going to survive a FAQ, even if it does cost 5CP to pull off.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The new shrieker relic is pretty wild. More range than curtainfall and flat 3 damage on the shrieker profile (though -1STR and can't use the +1STR strat) and flat -3AP on both. Combined with the new role, if you're shooting a unit of 6, that's going to typically be 3 S6 -3 3D hits, each of which causes another 1d3 mortal wounds for each shot that kills - that's pretty crazy for a 45 point model. Also - and I'm sure this will be FAQed - RAW the -2LD from this relic stacks with the -2LD from a normal shrieker or curtainfall (curtainfall specifically says it doesn't stack, this one says nothing about it, so RAW it does stack). Or if you run it dreaming shadow with the sniper role, that's a 48 inch range character sniping rifle that for 1CP hits twice for each hit (or three hits on a 6). That's 6D worth of shots (whether 2 3D or 6 1D) at -3AP plus the fish for mortal wounds and ignoring cover, which will statistically kill most characters without an invuln in one round, and force your opponent to play carefully even with characters that do have invulns because there's always a chance they fail that save and poof goes the character. Normally I am not a fan of snipers but for 45 points and no need to commit until you see your opponent's army I think this will see a lot of play.

The domino shroud looks potentially very powerful too, because you can activate it at the end of any phase - meaning you can actually teleport the bearer out of combat at the end of your opponent's charge phase after your opponent charges you. You can also use this at the end of your opponent's shooting phase to teleport then heroically intervene in their charge phase - it disables charging if you use it in your turn and requires you to set up 1 inch away from enemy models, but doesn't say anything about heroically intervening if you end up within 3 inches of an enemy model. You could gate out during their charge phase and then heroically intervene, but both effects happen at the end of the turn, and your opponent gets to chose the resolution order, so they can prevent you from doing that - but as long as you do it at the end of the shooting phase you're fine.

Edit. I missed the part with the role included. That is very good for a 45 point model!

Sterling191 wrote:
Im genuinely enjoying the character focused nature of the update.

This is quite obvious.
Not my liking since I emphasis troupes and skyweavers.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Im genuinely enjoying the character focused nature of the update.

This is quite obvious.
Not my liking since I emphasis troupes and skyweavers.

Plenty of solid tools in there for both, tbh. The free passive ability swaps are only for characters, but most of the stratagems are amazing for troupes.

Yeah, troupes for sure got a lot better. We basically have the Genestealer stratagem combo going now that made them very scary from day one of their codex and its why to this day everyone focus's them asap still.

I can see large 10-12 man Frozen Stars Troupe units being very good against most targets when coupled with the +1 damage strat and the consolidate back into combat strat.

At least one Death Jester, preferrably two IMHO, with the relic is almost mandatory in any list that includes Harlequins now.


A souped up Troupe Master with the Twilight Fang, re-roll wounds, and the strat to add an extra Pivotal Role, such as the always wound non-monsters and vehicles on 2+, should really help deal with heavy infantry such as Centurions and Aggressors, which Harlequins can really struggle to kill quickly or efficiently in melee.


My only (slight) disappointment is that there wasn't much to buff up ranged attacks. I was hoping for at least something like +1 to wound vehicles or +1 damage when targeting a monster or vehicle with shooting.

Just out of interest, how many CPs do you guys usually run? (Mono quins @2k).

I'm running 2 battalions atm but wondering if switching to a brigade might be better to squeeze out as many CP as I can and take advantage of the new strats.

Would mean voidweavers though.

Would mean voidweavers though.

They are debatable.
I usually run three of them.
They are objective campers and blasting away.
Since they are in the backfield in the most cases, they are not top priority for the enemy and so they often live a bit longer - longer than one thinks.

Any idea whether Harlequins still get to use this stuff if you play them as Ynnari?

yukishiro1 wrote:

There are some great relics there too. But we're still limited to two extra relics - and still stuck paying 3CP for it - inexplicably not getting the "1CP per additional relic" strat modern codexes get.

By "modern codexes" I assume you actually mean "Space marines".

I'm still leaning towards Dreaming Shadow for my eventual force as having a free Marine Ancient on everyone is awesome for full squads. Plus they will make the best use of the Relic Jester.

 vipoid wrote:
Any idea whether Harlequins still get to use this stuff if you play them as Ynnari?

yukishiro1 wrote:

There are some great relics there too. But we're still limited to two extra relics - and still stuck paying 3CP for it - inexplicably not getting the "1CP per additional relic" strat modern codexes get.

By "modern codexes" I assume you actually mean "Space marines".

I would think Ynnari Quins would still get to use Pivotal Roles.

 vipoid wrote:
Any idea whether Harlequins still get to use this stuff if you play them as Ynnari?

yukishiro1 wrote:

There are some great relics there too. But we're still limited to two extra relics - and still stuck paying 3CP for it - inexplicably not getting the "1CP per additional relic" strat modern codexes get.

By "modern codexes" I assume you actually mean "Space marines".

Well, no, I don't, seeing as Ynnari and Sisters also have it off the top of my head, and I wouldn't be surprised if others do too as well. It is clearly the modern approach.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Any idea whether Harlequins still get to use this stuff if you play them as Ynnari?

yukishiro1 wrote:

There are some great relics there too. But we're still limited to two extra relics - and still stuck paying 3CP for it - inexplicably not getting the "1CP per additional relic" strat modern codexes get.

By "modern codexes" I assume you actually mean "Space marines".

Well, no, I don't, seeing as Ynnari and Sisters also have it off the top of my head, and I wouldn't be surprised if others do too as well. It is clearly the modern approach.

My point was that most of the other armies have not received this update either, so I don't see why Harlequins would.

sweetbacon wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Any idea whether Harlequins still get to use this stuff if you play them as Ynnari?

yukishiro1 wrote:

There are some great relics there too. But we're still limited to two extra relics - and still stuck paying 3CP for it - inexplicably not getting the "1CP per additional relic" strat modern codexes get.

By "modern codexes" I assume you actually mean "Space marines".

I would think Ynnari Quins would still get to use Pivotal Roles.

I dunno actually, don't Ynnari not get exarch powers because <reasons>? If so, these seem like those.

Even if they do, you definitely wouldn't get the new strats or relics.

GW simply are allergic to consistency. Why have they given Harlequns a stratagem they can use on non-Harlequins when GW have constantly pushed away from cross faction stratagems even if they keywords match, but also keep the ability for CSM stratagems to work on Death Guard and Thousand Sons?

 vipoid wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Any idea whether Harlequins still get to use this stuff if you play them as Ynnari?

yukishiro1 wrote:

There are some great relics there too. But we're still limited to two extra relics - and still stuck paying 3CP for it - inexplicably not getting the "1CP per additional relic" strat modern codexes get.

By "modern codexes" I assume you actually mean "Space marines".

Well, no, I don't, seeing as Ynnari and Sisters also have it off the top of my head, and I wouldn't be surprised if others do too as well. It is clearly the modern approach.

My point was that most of the other armies have not received this update either, so I don't see why Harlequins would.

So your point was actually something different than the point you made. That's fine, thanks for clearing it up.

I agree re: other factions not getting the update either, but that is also inexplicable. There is no reason that factions with a codex released post-SM2.0 get 1 CP relics and older ones don't. It is inexplicable that they did not update this with the PA releases for each faction. It clearly isn't some intentional thing; every new release has got it. They updated bolster discipline etc - why not update this too?

Because GW want to keep the fiction alive that their books are worth buying. When the books become more errata than book, why would people bother buying them?

Changing one strat isn't exactly a big deal. They were willing to do much bigger things to every space marine faction, so I don't think that explains it. As long as you have a new book to sell people to do the errata that seems to satisfy the $$$ imperative.

Honestly I think the answer is they probably forgot/overlooked it with Phoenix Rising, which only came out a little while after SM2.0, and then decided it would be too embarrassing to have to errata PA1 if they started doing it with PA2+. If the PA release had been delayed by a couple months I think it is very likely every faction would have got 1CP relics.