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Kilkrazy wrote: OK< so it's worse than Santa Claus Conquers the Martians.
I've never seen that - though - you don't compare battleships to destroyers. A christmas movie has lower expectations than a movie theater blockbuster.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Kilkrazy wrote: OK< so it's worse than Santa Claus Conquers the Martians.
I've never seen that - though - you don't compare battleships to destroyers. A christmas movie has lower expectations than a movie theater blockbuster.
That's exactly my point.
You're judging TLJ against your prior expectations, not an objective standard of film-making.
Kilkrazy wrote: OK< so it's worse than Santa Claus Conquers the Martians.
Not seen it - is it recent?
Might be worth listing films that people may have actually seen to compare with it over the last year.
It was even worse than Batman Ninja and that was crap.
What films do you think it was better than recently.
Skaorn wrote: Woohoo, I enjoyed TLJ so I'm having badwrongfun! I go out of my way to watch terrible sci-fi and horror movies and I can assure you there are far worse. Of course if people want to talk about Bond films, they should look up the original Casino Royal movie with Woody Allen and Orsin Wells doing magic tricks. Your mind will be blown.
Nope you should enjoy what you enjoy. The Old Casino Royale was....odd - but then I am not a Woody Allen fan so that probably did not help.
What films did you think Last Jedi was better than in the last six months - I did not watch a worse one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 16:03:34
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Just to be clear, when I say someone's judging SW from their subjective angle, so am I. My viewpoint is different, though, hence the different appreciation of the film.
Santa Claus Conquers the Martians was released in 1964.
The last several films I've seen at the cinema were SW TLJ, SW Han Solo, SW TFA, Paddington 2, Bridget Jones's Baby, The Wind Rises, Johnny English 2, maybe a couple of others I can't remember. Warm Bodies, for instance.
I thought TLJ was below HS but above TFA. It's hard to compare with the others because they are completely different genres. However if you want to look for points of comparison, Warm Bodies is a genial adaptation of Romeo & Juliet into a ZomRomCom horror flick, so the plot is unoriginal.
TLJ is one of the worst SW films ever made, edging out only TPM and AotC at the bottom of the pile. When you rank SW films against one another the measuring stick, believe it or not, is SW itself.
Looking at TLJ against other non-SW movies in the same budget range out these past few years, it's a completely forgettable nothing. I would say Disney's John Carter is a far better film, and it's also pretty forgettable. More recently, Thor Ragnarok was a much better film. The latest version of ITws a much better film. Blade Runner 2049 was many, many times better a film. I would say TLJ is comparable with the RoboCop remake from a few years back. I think it is a better film than Terminator Genisys, however.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/30 16:19:16
Kilkrazy wrote: Just to be clear, when I say someone's judging SW from their subjective angle, so am I. My viewpoint is different, though, hence the different appreciation of the film.
Santa Claus Conquers the Martians was released in 1964.
The last several films I've seen at the cinema were SW TLJ, SW Han Solo, SW TFA, Paddington 2, Bridget Jones's Baby, The Wind Rises, Johnny English 2, maybe a couple of others I can't remember. Warm Bodies, for instance.
I thought TLJ was below HS but above TFA. It's hard to compare with the others because they are completely different genres. However if you want to look for points of comparison, Warm Bodies is a genial adaptation of Romeo & Juliet into a ZomRomCom horror flick, so the plot is unoriginal.
I go with a couple of friends regularly - couple of times a month at most - more on DVD or Sky/Netflix/Amazon. recently watched and enjoyed much much more than TLJ: Rampage, Thor Raganrok Black Panther, Annihilation, Bright, Justice League, Jumanji (the new one), Wonder Woman, I would even say GeoStorm was a far better film than TLJ and that was not....great.
We loved Warm bodies - great film, certainly a million times better than TLJ
TFA two of us thought was good fun - the hardcore SW fan hated it, we had hoped TLJ would be similar, again better than TLJ
Johnny English was quite good fun,
Not seen Solo (will wait till its on Sky) or the Wind Rises
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 16:23:45
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
The last six months is a very small window of time and I haven't watched a lot of movies lately. Recent ones include Batman vs Superman, Suicide Squad, Annabell the Creation, Alien Covenant, and Mother! spring to mind.
To be fair with Mother! though my friend and I went to see it wanting a bad horror movie, the trailer made it look like a Rosemary's Baby clone which it wasn't, and I don't think I was supposed to figure out the source material as quickly as I did. As for Annabell, I've seen the real one in person and was planning on going back to the Warren's museum before the movie, only to find it was closed ATM due to zoning issues, so I had to settle for the movie.
I think those should be recent enough without dipping into older gems like the Transformer movies, the SW Prequels, or Battlefield Earth. I also didn't enjoy TFA either and that could still probably fit comfortably in "recent" movies.
Something I've been trying to erase from my memory, also, I was recently forced to watch all 3 Fifty Shades movies. Back to back. I didn't claw out my own eyes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 16:42:52
No, it's the worst star wars film, judging by user reviews, and IMO. it's probably a toss up for worst star wars film between TLJ and phantom. I'd put phantom on top of TLJ because it at least has characters with more depth, and pod racing
And of course I'm not even considering the ewok movies or the holiday special as they don't exist
Manchu wrote: So how do those movies compare to TLJ in your opinion?
Oh, I thought Morden was asking for movies I thought were worse. Better is a lot harder to remember thanks to major depressive disorder, I often completely forget about things I enjoy. By association I can pull up Rogue One, Han Solo, Thor: Ragnarok, Captain America: Civil War, and Guardians of the Galaxy 2. All recently seen within the past 18 months maybe. I'd say I liked Wonder Woman but I can't for the life of me remember much about it. The only thing I can recall off the top of my head that doesn't have a direct association is The Things We Do in the Shadows.
Another one I found worse than TLJ I just thought of was Arthur: Legend of the Sword. I mean the bad guy's look was stolen directly off of an 80s heavy metal album cover. Of course I also enjoyed Clive Owen's version of King Arthur as it was the Seven Samurai done with Arthurian legend, if that says something.
Kilkrazy wrote: OK< so it's worse than Santa Claus Conquers the Martians.
I've never seen that - though - you don't compare battleships to destroyers. A christmas movie has lower expectations than a movie theater blockbuster.
That's exactly my point.
You're judging TLJ against your prior expectations, not an objective standard of film-making.
Ofc I am using my expectations to judge it. I expect that a 200 million dollar movie is going to have a decent plot that a 7 year old could dissect as being complete trash. I am also judging it against standards of cinema - it misses the mark here big time and that is much more important than my personal opinion. This movie makes you feel like you are having actual time stolen from your life with a useless side plot that has no bearing on the story. It makes up reasons which don't make sense about why the first order doesn't just destroy the fleeing ships with it's fighters (which already inflicted serious damage) and it breaks established star wars history by ramming a ship in hyperspace - making all the previous struggles of the alliance a waste...they could have just destroyed the death star with hyperspace suicide mon calamari.
Plot is the most important part of any movie - TLJ falls so short here is embarrassing for a "professional" director/film team.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Manchu wrote: So how do those movies compare to TLJ in your opinion?
Oh, I thought Morden was asking for movies I thought were worse. Better is a lot harder to remember thanks to major depressive disorder, I often completely forget about things I enjoy. By association I can pull up Rogue One, Han Solo, Thor: Ragnarok, Captain America: Civil War, and Guardians of the Galaxy 2. All recently seen within the past 18 months maybe. I'd say I liked Wonder Woman but I can't for the life of me remember much about it. The only thing I can recall off the top of my head that doesn't have a direct association is The Things We Do in the Shadows.
Another one I found worse than TLJ I just thought of was Arthur: Legend of the Sword. I mean the bad guy's look was stolen directly off of an 80s heavy metal album cover. Of course I also enjoyed Clive Owen's version of King Arthur as it was the Seven Samurai done with Arthurian legend, if that says something.
I was indeed - of those listed
Batman vs Superman: despite the truely awful "Loopy Lex" that ruined the film for me, I did enjoy the other characters - esp Wonder Woman - so for me much better than TLJ where I was at best meh about characters.
Suicide Squad: Great first half - loads better than TLJ - some great sequences and fun characters - could have been better but never tedious.
Alien Covenant: David was good, some good action -loads better than TLJ again for me
King Arthur - wierd film but mad fun. Again TLJ was just no fun.
Annabell the Creation, and Mother - not seen either,
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Skaorn wrote: The last six months is a very small window of time and I haven't watched a lot of movies lately. Recent ones include Batman vs Superman, Suicide Squad, Annabell the Creation, Alien Covenant, and Mother! spring to mind.
To be fair with Mother! though my friend and I went to see it wanting a bad horror movie, the trailer made it look like a Rosemary's Baby clone which it wasn't, and I don't think I was supposed to figure out the source material as quickly as I did. As for Annabell, I've seen the real one in person and was planning on going back to the Warren's museum before the movie, only to find it was closed ATM due to zoning issues, so I had to settle for the movie.
I think those should be recent enough without dipping into older gems like the Transformer movies, the SW Prequels, or Battlefield Earth. I also didn't enjoy TFA either and that could still probably fit comfortably in "recent" movies.
Something I've been trying to erase from my memory, also, I was recently forced to watch all 3 Fifty Shades movies. Back to back. I didn't claw out my own eyes.
Funny - battlefield earth recently became available on Netflix and I watched it for the second time in my life. I'd give 2.5 stars out of 5. Special effects were bad (even for the time) costume's were pretty bad, and cave men flying harriers was also just a little more than silly. the biggest uh oh is when they produce pressed gold bars instead of gold ore to the obviously untrusting john Travolta alien and hes okay with it...Ultimately - I liked the main character enough to stay interested and I genuinely wanted him to succeed. Not that bad of a film in the end if you care about the main character.
A similar movie "Oblivion" I absolutely loved. 5/5. Not sure why I even mention it. It's just I wish more movies could be at that level.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Skaorn wrote: The last six months is a very small window of time and I haven't watched a lot of movies lately. Recent ones include Batman vs Superman, Suicide Squad, Annabell the Creation, Alien Covenant, and Mother! spring to mind.
To be fair with Mother! though my friend and I went to see it wanting a bad horror movie, the trailer made it look like a Rosemary's Baby clone which it wasn't, and I don't think I was supposed to figure out the source material as quickly as I did. As for Annabell, I've seen the real one in person and was planning on going back to the Warren's museum before the movie, only to find it was closed ATM due to zoning issues, so I had to settle for the movie.
I think those should be recent enough without dipping into older gems like the Transformer movies, the SW Prequels, or Battlefield Earth. I also didn't enjoy TFA either and that could still probably fit comfortably in "recent" movies.
Something I've been trying to erase from my memory, also, I was recently forced to watch all 3 Fifty Shades movies. Back to back. I didn't claw out my own eyes.
Funny - battlefield earth recently became available on Netflix and I watched it for the second time in my life. I'd give 2.5 stars out of 5. Special effects were bad (even for the time) costume's were pretty bad, and cave men flying harriers was also just a little more than silly. the biggest uh oh is when they produce pressed gold bars instead of gold ore to the obviously untrusting john Travolta alien and hes okay with it...Ultimately - I liked the main character enough to stay interested and I genuinely wanted him to succeed. Not that bad of a film in the end if you care about the main character.
A similar movie "Oblivion" I absolutely loved. 5/5. Not sure why I even mention it. It's just I wish more movies could be at that level.
Oblivion is a good movie - enjoyed that alot. Edge of Tomorrow is equally good IMO
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Skaorn wrote: The last six months is a very small window of time and I haven't watched a lot of movies lately. Recent ones include Batman vs Superman, Suicide Squad, Annabell the Creation, Alien Covenant, and Mother! spring to mind.
To be fair with Mother! though my friend and I went to see it wanting a bad horror movie, the trailer made it look like a Rosemary's Baby clone which it wasn't, and I don't think I was supposed to figure out the source material as quickly as I did. As for Annabell, I've seen the real one in person and was planning on going back to the Warren's museum before the movie, only to find it was closed ATM due to zoning issues, so I had to settle for the movie.
I think those should be recent enough without dipping into older gems like the Transformer movies, the SW Prequels, or Battlefield Earth. I also didn't enjoy TFA either and that could still probably fit comfortably in "recent" movies.
Something I've been trying to erase from my memory, also, I was recently forced to watch all 3 Fifty Shades movies. Back to back. I didn't claw out my own eyes.
Funny - battlefield earth recently became available on Netflix and I watched it for the second time in my life. I'd give 2.5 stars out of 5. Special effects were bad (even for the time) costume's were pretty bad, and cave men flying harriers was also just a little more than silly. the biggest uh oh is when they produce pressed gold bars instead of gold ore to the obviously untrusting john Travolta alien and hes okay with it...Ultimately - I liked the main character enough to stay interested and I genuinely wanted him to succeed. Not that bad of a film in the end if you care about the main character.
A similar movie "Oblivion" I absolutely loved. 5/5. Not sure why I even mention it. It's just I wish more movies could be at that level.
Oblivion is a good movie - enjoyed that alot. Edge of Tomorrow is equally good IMO
Yep - another good example of good scifi.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Skaorn wrote: The last six months is a very small window of time and I haven't watched a lot of movies lately. Recent ones include Batman vs Superman, Suicide Squad, Annabell the Creation, Alien Covenant, and Mother! spring to mind.
To be fair with Mother! though my friend and I went to see it wanting a bad horror movie, the trailer made it look like a Rosemary's Baby clone which it wasn't, and I don't think I was supposed to figure out the source material as quickly as I did. As for Annabell, I've seen the real one in person and was planning on going back to the Warren's museum before the movie, only to find it was closed ATM due to zoning issues, so I had to settle for the movie.
I think those should be recent enough without dipping into older gems like the Transformer movies, the SW Prequels, or Battlefield Earth. I also didn't enjoy TFA either and that could still probably fit comfortably in "recent" movies.
Something I've been trying to erase from my memory, also, I was recently forced to watch all 3 Fifty Shades movies. Back to back. I didn't claw out my own eyes.
Funny - battlefield earth recently became available on Netflix and I watched it for the second time in my life. I'd give 2.5 stars out of 5. Special effects were bad (even for the time) costume's were pretty bad, and cave men flying harriers was also just a little more than silly. the biggest uh oh is when they produce pressed gold bars instead of gold ore to the obviously untrusting john Travolta alien and hes okay with it...Ultimately - I liked the main character enough to stay interested and I genuinely wanted him to succeed. Not that bad of a film in the end if you care about the main character.
The book was better, the movie is just the first half of the book, Travolta was great as the bad guy, and did catch that in the book. The movie was poorly received as I recall, but it's still a better story than TLJ.
2018/05/30 18:49:22
Subject: Re:Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Edge of Tomorrow was solid, but I really wish it had stuck to the small scale conflict of the original novel instead of going for a full keystone army ending. I was really disappointed with how it ended compared to the original.
Batman vs Superman: despite the truely awful "Loopy Lex" that ruined the film for me, I did enjoy the other characters - esp Wonder Woman - so for me much better than TLJ where I was at best meh about characters.
Suicide Squad: Great first half - loads better than TLJ - some great sequences and fun characters - could have been better but never tedious.
Alien Covenant: David was good, some good action -loads better than TLJ again for me
King Arthur - wierd film but mad fun. Again TLJ was just no fun.
Annabell the Creation, and Mother - not seen either,
And all those are completely valid for, just as it's valid they all made me hope they would hurry up and end while TLJ didn't. Not that TLJ made me hope that there was still more left to go either.
Off Topic:
Spoiler:
Loopy Lex was definitely a take on the character that was a risk that flopped but it was things like the time traveling Flash stuff and both their mom's having the same name.
The Flash was a big "look we might do something with this in a future movie", which is not a real safe bet to do in a movie series. I mean Darth Vader wasn't even Luke's father until a few rewrites into ESB and things can get cut just as easily. There is also the "we could even do Injustice" angle too. In reality you could do an Injustice movie connected with no connections or setup at all beyond the basic premise that the Joker tricked Superman so badly that he snapped and took over. Characters like Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Joker are well known enough that they don't really need introductions when you're already running with "what if Superman went bad".
Also, after learning Superman's secret identity, is the guy who's often called the Worlds Greatest Detective is going to be surprised that their moms share the same first name? I'd figure one first step would be to look up known family and associates. Seems like something a character like Batman might do when plotting to murder someone to see who he'd be effecting and decide if he was really making the right choice too, considering the tragic loss in his life.
As for Suicide Squad, I could have gotten a better story watching the Justice League Unlimited episode Task Force X, without any of the connecting episodes to go with it, and gotten it with better animation and under 30 minutes. I mean a team of C and D list super villains with cortex bombs being forced by the government to infiltrate the super heroes' space station to destroy a device that can be used as a space based weapon system sounds way better than the mess that Suicide Squad was.
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
TPM isn't as much terrible as it is a huge letdown. I've never full decided if RotS is really that much better or if I'd just adapted my standards by the time it came out. AotC is easily the worst theatrical Star Wars film ever made.
LunarSol wrote: TPM isn't as much terrible as it is a huge letdown. I've never full decided if RotS is really that much better or if I'd just adapted my standards by the time it came out. AotC is easily the worst theatrical Star Wars film ever made.
Disagree. All 3 of the prequels are hot garbage. Obi is good in them. But the visuals are long green screen corridors that go nowhere in a sterile city where nobody has anything to do. Everything with the senate is boring. The side characters are just endless piles of nonsense. They kill off every interesting bad guy in the movie they are introduced so we never get any kind of build up of good story with them (Maul Grevus). Duku is a boring old man. The main character is poorly portrayed in every one of the movies. Yoda becomes a horrible CGI flipping whirl which just detracts from the character. They made Samuel L Jackson into the most boring person in the galaxy. Everyone forgets what powers they have.
We literally see Qui Gon and Obi use super speed in the opening of TPM and then when they fight Maul nobody uses super speed to get through video game style opening and closing energy doors. Why?
Outside of MST3K style garbage the prequels are some of the worst movies I have ever seen.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/30 20:08:22
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
TLJ belongs down at the bottom with TPM and AotC because, like them, it is essentially a parade of stupid that keeps getting dumber as it goes on. It ranks a bit higher because the dialog and acting is at lot less clunky, and it inherited better characters from TFA than any who appear in TPM or AotC.
LunarSol wrote: TPM isn't as much terrible as it is a huge letdown. I've never full decided if RotS is really that much better or if I'd just adapted my standards by the time it came out. AotC is easily the worst theatrical Star Wars film ever made.
Disagree. All 3 of the prequels are hot garbage.
I didn't mean to imply any of them are remotely good.
Manchu wrote: TLJ belongs down at the bottom with TPM and AotC because, like them, it is essentially a parade of stupid that keeps getting dumber as it goes on. It ranks a bit higher because the dialog and acting is at lot less clunky, and it inherited better characters from TFA than any who appear in TPM or AotC.
Natalie P did look fantastic in her white combat outfit.......
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
The Last Jedi is, if not my favorite, definitely in my top three Star Wars films.
I felt it was a mature take on the series that gave us back the jedi after the terrible damage wrought on them by Lucas in the prequels.
It subverted so many tropes, from the Million To One Shot to the Plucky Young Hero Saving The Day By Bucking Authority. It wiped out the unnecessary mystery boxes JJ Abrams loves to set up but not resolve in favor of moving the narrative forward rather than looking back.
It is a movie that lovingly sent off the main players of the trilogy of my youth while focusing on the players of the new generation of Star Wars fans, and I loved every minute of it.
One of the biggest TLJ fans on DakkaDakka is speculating ITT as to which main cast member Rey is related. Just like back when TFA came out. He loved TLJ but is looking forward to JJ returning to fix Rian's mishandling of Rey. Regardless of whether you agree with that POV, it's a great example of how TLJ did not "wipe out" the mystery boxes - even for people who loved the movie. It sure as hell did not move the narrative forward. If Snoke is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then killing Snoke doesn't matter. If Luke is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then killing Luke doesn't matter. If Rey's background is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then revealing that Rey has no background doesn't matter.
Mr Morden wrote: Natalie P did look fantastic in her white combat outfit.......
I prefer her leather corset look. You know, the perfect outfit for when you need to squeeze your boobs way up into pronounced cleavage for those special occasions by the fireplace when you tell a guy that he's not getting to second base.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/30 21:04:26
