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 Lance845 wrote:
Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.

Let's be fair here. A lot of the fans who were being defensive started out by going on a good offensive. Even though I really liked TLJ, I've found myself arguing on the "haters" side because the superfans have been so condescending and unreasonable. You might not have been the one with the beam in his own eye, but you're certainly not helping when you keep harping on the motes in others' eyes.

I mostly believe that the whole Mary Sue thing just doesn't exist. I am arguing that iIF Rey is a Mary Sue the so is everyone else of any consequence in SW. You cannot give everyone else a pass for having the same thing

Then one does not understand what a mary sue is and this argument is basically "Everyone's a mary sue if Rey is!" Which is just trying to protect a bad character.

The thing that establishes it is the final shot of TLJ. When a small kid uses force pull to put the broom in his hand. Anyone can be powerful in the force. It doesn't have to come from anywhere. We are following exceptional people in the movie because exceptional people are interesting.

Which breaks established canon if that were true. Anyone can be powerful in the force so long as they have the potential for it. Otherwise everyone in the Galaxy is able to summon force lightning by sheer will.. Which is not how it works.

I miss the days when the force was like Chi or Kundalini or something...when everyone had the potential to use it and could learn to wield it through years of hard work, dedication and enlightenment, when it was a natural talent that needed to be developed and some lucky few were born gifted prodigies.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.

Let's be fair here. A lot of the fans who were being defensive started out by going on a good offensive. Even though I really liked TLJ, I've found myself arguing on the "haters" side because the superfans have been so condescending and unreasonable. You might not have been the one with the beam in his own eye, but you're certainly not helping when you keep harping on the motes in others' eyes.

Lets be REALLY fair. Idiots exist on all sides of every disagreement ever and all the idiots on all sides are antagonistic. Just because the idiots who disagree with you acted like dicks doesn't mean the correct response is to act like a dick back.

Here, in this place, with these discussions, if you choose to respond to the other side by making broad generalizations and derogatory remarks then you are one of the idiots on your side. 2 wrongs don't make a right. They did it first is not a valid excuse. You are responsible for your own actions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I miss the days when the force was like Chi or Kundalini or something...when everyone had the potential to use it and could learn to wield it through years of hard work, dedication and enlightenment, when it was a natural talent that needed to be developed and some lucky few were born gifted prodigies.

I feel like thats where they are trying to get it back to. I feel like thats what Rey is.

Ok, I'll give this a go.

I liked TLJ a lot better than I liked TFA. I'm not saying it was a good movie by any stretch of the imagination, but I have seen a lot worse. I actually was able to enjoy it for what it was which is something I can't say for TFA, which left me thinking "can we end this already". TFA was just a retelling of ANH only trying to be bigger and badder and with Abrahm's usual heavy helping of daddy issues. It actually found it drowned out one of the things I thought Lucas was good at, set design and making me feel like I'm seeing a story set in a big galaxy.

What I Liked: cranky Luke was great. I really enjoyed him, I liked the scene with R2 unleashing the hologram on him, I liked Yoda messing with him, and I liked him beating Kylo by trolling him.

I also liked that they did more with different locations and really bringing out more aliens and wild life than I remember seeing in TFA. It felt more like a SW movie.

The Snoke fight scene was kinda fun.

What I did not like: everyone seems to go on about how incompetent the resistance is, but the 1st Order is probably even worse. The only person in the movie who displayed any tactical sense admittedly was the dreadnaught captain who realized that he should have scrambled fighters already. In fact all the cruisers should have and provided covering fire for the dreadnaught. Why not call to other fleets to send some vessels to try and encircle the fleeing resistance since they can't jump to hyperspace? The list goes on and on, on both sides.

Hyperspace tracking and ramming. So everyone immediately accepts that tracking through hyperspace is the obvious answer to why the 1st Order can track them. I would have probably assumed a spy myself would be more likely. It would have explained why Holdo wasn't telling people her plan too, but whatever. It also kind of kills one important aspect of ship battles in SW, especially when gravity well projectors are canon, and why would you only have one ship doing the tracking? Of course this not as dramatically as hyperspace ramming. Hell, with droids you could do that a lot without any heroic sacrifices needed.

The heroes really accomplish nothing. They blow up a big ship and it gets replaced by a bigger ship. They try to go about disabling the tracker but get caught. Rei can't finish her training or turn Kyle. They reach Craat but are ignored by their allies. Even Luke just stalls for time but ultimately dies.

It's a retelling of ESB, but at least it's less blatant about it than TFA was with ANH.

The vehicles kinda stunk: either they were reskins or they were the bomber and the skimmer. The bomber... okay, we're going with WWII style bombers rather than the Y-Wing or B-Wing style. They do know that those first few armed bombs will be going slower out into 0g than the ones near the top, right? Also, I get it was pretty, but even Luke on Tatoonie had a flying car. It didn't need a ski.

Finally we have the villains: I have no problem with not-Emperor clone getting taken out like that. We saw it before, we knew it would happen again. The guys I have issue with are General Incompetence Hux and Kylo Temper Tantrum Ren. How am I supposed to take the bad guys seriously when these guys are in charge. How did Hux even survive TFA? Every time I see him in action I imagine Anakin appearing to Kylo as a blue ghost saying "I can't tell you what I would have done with him, since I reformed. Rhymes with horse bloke." Kylo wants to be grandpa so much, you'd think he would have learned how to weed out the incompetent early on. Also maybe tried to pretend he had some of his self control. A villian who just acts like he needs a time out does nothing for me.

MVP (this is going to be fun): Holdo, and I'll tell you why. She took a bullet and saved the reputation of a major republic hero. Had Admiral Akbar not died, he would have been in her place, making the same bad calls because that was what the writers called for. At least he got to die with some dignity and not get ruined. Honestly though, I don't see what the big deal with her is, you could have put any man, woman, or child in that role and it would have been exactly the same unless allowed to freely ad lib.

Other notes: I have no problem with Rei having an ability with the force that rises to match Kylo despite being a nobody. I mean the force made a force Jesus, so anything goes.

The only thing that will make me angry at this point will if they explain Princess Leiah's death in 9 as her dying of a broken heart.

What I want to see from a SW movie: The Jedi/Sith war that started of with the Mandaloreans acting as a vanguard for the Sith.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Reflexes and actual force powers are not the same thing.

A central plot point of TPM is that Anakin couldn't podrace without being strong in the force. He even exclaims "Now this is podracing!" while blowing up the droid control ship.

Maybe people are forgetting they might no longer be the target audience. I mean when I got into Star Wars in the 90s I was born in 93. So I grew up liking the OT and was there for the full swing of the prequels. While I loved the prequels as a kid I can fully acknowledge all the problems they have.

But now in 2018...I feel like these movies are not being made for me. Maybe i've outgrown Star Wars. To me TLJ felt like a movie I would have loved when I was ten, but now...it just feels like a childish romp with politically correct messages shelved in. BR2049 was made for the me of today, along with Annihilation and more mature contemplative sci fi...and i'm hoping the upcoming Dune reboot will be like what Villeneuve said it would be...star wars for adults.

 Thargrim wrote:
Maybe people are forgetting they might no longer be the target audience. I mean when I got into Star Wars in the 90s I was born in 93. So I grew up liking the OT and was there for the full swing of the prequels. While I loved the prequels as a kid I can fully acknowledge all the problems they have.

But now in 2018...I feel like these movies are not being made for me. Maybe i've outgrown Star Wars. To me TLJ felt like a movie I would have loved when I was ten, but now...it just feels like a childish romp with politically correct messages shelved in. BR2049 was made for the me of today, along with Annihilation and more mature contemplative sci fi...and i'm hoping the upcoming Dune reboot will be like what Villeneuve said it would be...star wars for adults.

A fair point.

 Lance845 wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.

Let's be fair here. A lot of the fans who were being defensive started out by going on a good offensive. Even though I really liked TLJ, I've found myself arguing on the "haters" side because the superfans have been so condescending and unreasonable. You might not have been the one with the beam in his own eye, but you're certainly not helping when you keep harping on the motes in others' eyes.

Lets be REALLY fair. Idiots exist on all sides of every disagreement ever and all the idiots on all sides are antagonistic. Just because the idiots who disagree with you acted like dicks doesn't mean the correct response is to act like a dick back.

Here, in this place, with these discussions, if you choose to respond to the other side by making broad generalizations and derogatory remarks then you are one of the idiots on your side. 2 wrongs don't make a right. They did it first is not a valid excuse. You are responsible for your own actions.

oh, I've done my best not to insult any poster here. I'm just pointing out that this topic is becoming frustrating for both sides and, other than a certain crunchy poster who was exceedingly rude, you've been one of the posters most escalating the disagreement.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I miss the days when the force was like Chi or Kundalini or something...when everyone had the potential to use it and could learn to wield it through years of hard work, dedication and enlightenment, when it was a natural talent that needed to be developed and some lucky few were born gifted prodigies.

I feel like thats where they are trying to get it back to. I feel like thats what Rey is.

See, I liked RJ's approach to the Force...right up until it became an inescapable cycle of light chasing dark chasing light with absolutely no hope for a better tomorrow that won't end in ashes.

 Thargrim wrote:
Maybe people are forgetting they might no longer be the target audience. I mean when I got into Star Wars in the 90s I was born in 93. So I grew up liking the OT and was there for the full swing of the prequels. While I loved the prequels as a kid I can fully acknowledge all the problems they have.

But now in 2018...I feel like these movies are not being made for me. Maybe i've outgrown Star Wars. To me TLJ felt like a movie I would have loved when I was ten, but now...it just feels like a childish romp with politically correct messages shelved in. BR2049 was made for the me of today, along with Annihilation and more mature contemplative sci fi...and i'm hoping the upcoming Dune reboot will be like what Villeneuve said it would be...star wars for adults.

What's frustrating to me is that it would be really easy to save TPM. No Gungans, no Anakin saving the day. You do that and you have a tighter 90 minute movie.

Though you're right, the prequels were made to sell toys to kids; hence the protagonist being a child who gets with his much older crush.

Hyperspace tracking and ramming. So everyone immediately accepts that tracking through hyperspace is the obvious answer to why the 1st Order can track them. I would have probably assumed a spy myself would be more likely. It would have explained why Holdo wasn't telling people her plan too, but whatever. It also kind of kills one important aspect of ship battles in SW, especially when gravity well projectors are canon, and why would you only have one ship doing the tracking? Of course this not as dramatically as hyperspace ramming. Hell, with droids you could do that a lot without any heroic sacrifices needed.

Hyperspace Tracking was mentioned by the First Order and one or two of the resistance. And it was shown as a hidden Empire research project back in Rogue One which came out beforehand.

 Yodhrin wrote:
...

So in other words, you could be considered a Star Wars fan who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, but were bored of the basic formula and wanted the Disney films to signal a departure from it Or else realised that to be the case after the fact, since TLJ is, in fact, a departure from the traditional Star Wars formula.

In what way was TLJ a departure from the traditional SW formula?

 dogma wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
Maybe people are forgetting they might no longer be the target audience. I mean when I got into Star Wars in the 90s I was born in 93. So I grew up liking the OT and was there for the full swing of the prequels. While I loved the prequels as a kid I can fully acknowledge all the problems they have.

But now in 2018...I feel like these movies are not being made for me. Maybe i've outgrown Star Wars. To me TLJ felt like a movie I would have loved when I was ten, but now...it just feels like a childish romp with politically correct messages shelved in. BR2049 was made for the me of today, along with Annihilation and more mature contemplative sci fi...and i'm hoping the upcoming Dune reboot will be like what Villeneuve said it would be...star wars for adults.

What's frustrating to me is that it would be really easy to save TPM. No Gungans, no Anakin saving the day. You do that and you have a tighter 90 minute movie.

Though you're right, the prequels were made to sell toys to kids; hence the protagonist being a child who gets with his much older crush.

Aww man, the battle between the Gungans and the droid army and the podrace were my favourite parts of Phantom Menace!

It makes me sad when people bash on Episode 1, I was 10 when it came out and enjoyed it in a way that no other Star Wars film came close to until Rogue 1.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
...

So in other words, you could be considered a Star Wars fan who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, but were bored of the basic formula and wanted the Disney films to signal a departure from it Or else realised that to be the case after the fact, since TLJ is, in fact, a departure from the traditional Star Wars formula.

In what way was TLJ a departure from the traditional SW formula?

Cos the Snow battle* happened at the end and not the start, total subversion innit

* battle might be a stretch as flinging pushbikes at tanks was another chapter of wtf military forkwits

When push-bikes are all you have, that's what you use...

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
...

So in other words, you could be considered a Star Wars fan who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, but were bored of the basic formula and wanted the Disney films to signal a departure from it Or else realised that to be the case after the fact, since TLJ is, in fact, a departure from the traditional Star Wars formula.

In what way was TLJ a departure from the traditional SW formula?

Well it was dull and badly written but that's in keeping with the prequels.

Critics love to talk about the oh so edgy subversion - Still don't agree

They still had a single black character who was basically there as a joke, the women were portrayed as idiots for the most part and the men as worse, its fine for Asian character's to conduct suicide attacks, oh and wow arms dealers sell guns to anyone who buys them.

dig that subversion.

 Kroem wrote:

Aww man, the battle between the Gungans and the droid army and the podrace were my favourite parts of Phantom Menace!

The podrace must stay, that's good spectacle; and a really good arcade game. But you can have podracing without Anakin blowing up the droid controller; he can be good at podracing and nothing else.

 Kroem wrote:

It makes me sad when people bash on Episode 1, I was 10 when it came out and enjoyed it in a way that no other Star Wars film came close to until Rogue 1.

Episode 1 was, by far, the best of the prequels.

I actually agree. Episode 1 is the best of the prequels, narrowly beating ROTS. It is however, mostly filler.

Wow. How times have changed. I remember a time when Ep 1 was almost unanimously considered the worst SW movie ever.
I'm actually glad to see more people like it though. If you cut out 80% of the Jar Jar stuff you are left with a pretty decent flick that is fun to watch.
But yeah, from a story perspective, you can completely skip Ep 1 and the rest of the SW saga still makes sense.

Ep 1 and ROTJ are the clearest visions of SW as children's movies I think.

SW was B serial, like the Indy Jones films. ESB was similar with a bit darker edge.

 Galef wrote:
Wow. How times have changed. I remember a time when Ep 1 was almost unanimously considered the worst SW movie ever.
I'm actually glad to see more people like it though. If you cut out 80% of the Jar Jar stuff you are left with a pretty decent flick that is fun to watch.
But yeah, from a story perspective, you can completely skip Ep 1 and the rest of the SW saga still makes sense.

For me,"like" is a strong word. "Tolerate" is more fitting to be honest.

I remember someone did an edit of TPM that cut out all of Jar Jar's 'hilarity' and dubbed his voice over in an alien language with subtitles, changing his dialogue too. The process turned him from an annoying cartoon into a decent character. It also edited out a lot of the Senate dreck and other filler. Oh, and the battle droids now only spoke to living characters, making them somewhat more sinister. All these changes resulted in a pretty decent movie.

Say what you will about the Prequels, but it did expand the Galaxy and show us new people and things. However, it this and stayed relatively close to the idea of Space OPera and the Heroe's Journey IN SPAAAAAAACE! The directing and editing were terrible, but at least it was Star Wars in content and design.

My lov eof the Franchise died with Mitochloridians and the whole delivery of that scene, and I would have loved to never see Yoda use a lightsaber; but the arc was still Star Wars.

TLJ, was basically a bunch of stuff happening that didn't matter AND only wanted to show the audience how stupid the Star Wars template was. Wow, thanks for showing me that being a liking something is dumb and I should feel bad about it. I feel much better now. Like Winston in 1984.

 Galef wrote:
Wow. How times have changed. I remember a time when Ep 1 was almost unanimously considered the worst SW movie ever.

Then AotC came out.

 Galef wrote:

I'm actually glad to see more people like it though. If you cut out 80% of the Jar Jar stuff you are left with a pretty decent flick that is fun to watch.

The 10 year old romancing the 17 year old is also kind of weird.

Reconsidered? Yea, I've reconsidered. Reconsidered Star Wars! I will now throw my lot in with the Trekkies!

Live long and prosper!

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Wow. How times have changed. I remember a time when Ep 1 was almost unanimously considered the worst SW movie ever.
I'm actually glad to see more people like it though. If you cut out 80% of the Jar Jar stuff you are left with a pretty decent flick that is fun to watch.
But yeah, from a story perspective, you can completely skip Ep 1 and the rest of the SW saga still makes sense.

For me,"like" is a strong word. "Tolerate" is more fitting to be honest.

I remember someone did an edit of TPM that cut out all of Jar Jar's 'hilarity' and dubbed his voice over in an alien language with subtitles, changing his dialogue too. The process turned him from an annoying cartoon into a decent character. It also edited out a lot of the Senate dreck and other filler. Oh, and the battle droids now only spoke to living characters, making them somewhat more sinister. All these changes resulted in a pretty decent movie.

I can kinda see tow that might work - bit like editing Loopy fething Lex out of Bats vs Sups - makes it watchable but still not a good film

Most of the Star Wars principal cast scores petty high on the Mary Sue litmus test.

Just going off the top of my head.

Anakin Skywalker - "Cool" name, chosen one, allegedly has greater force potential than anyone, born into slavery, top five duelist at a minimum, second deadliest individual in the galaxy during the Empire's reign, possibly best fighter pilot in the galaxy, talented mechanic from an early age, best human pod racer on Tatooine, best pre adolescent pod racer/fighter pilot probably of all time, woos and wins a "Queen", love at first sight, no father and mother dies horribly...Padme continues to love him even though he just killed a tribe of Tusken Raiders...goes completely off the deep end and massacres more children...and adults...is somehow redeemed by his son.

Obi-Wan Kenobi - Probably a top five duelist during the Republic, trained two of the most powerful force users that we see in the first six films, beat Grievous, Maul, Anakin, and Jango Fett 1v1. Let's highlight that. As a padawan he took down the Sith that had just killed his master and matched them 1v2...expert pilot, compared to other characters he is a pretty good detective/tracker...

Luke Skywalker - Took down the Death Star his first time in an X-Wing and with minimal force training, was deflecting blaster bolts the second time we see him pick up a lightsaber. (Have we even see Rey deflect a blaster bolt yet?) Talented enough as a duelist that he countered Vader's second attempt at a riposte on Bespin, but it did cost him his hand. Losing his hand didn't matter, got a new one. Second time he fought Vader he beat him down. Yes, the guy who received minimal training and has fought a total of two lightsaber duels defeated the guy who killed multiple veteran Jedi/Sith. Another chosen one, redeemed his father, so pure of heart he resisted Sidious, took down Jabba the Hutt's crime syndicate, extremely talented pilot and strategist, decent mechanic. In sequels was able to force project himself across the galaxy.

Han Solo - Despite being a former drug smuggler no one brings this up/if they do it is because he is famous. One of the best pilots in the galaxy. Also a talent combat marksman and strategist. Woos and wins the heart of a "Princess." Is constantly gruff and abrasive but no one ever seems to care. Picks on C3PO (in contrast to how well Luke treats R2D2) and no stops him or even cares. Obviously has an intentionally "cool" name. Strongest argument against him being a Sue is that he actually gets captured and has to be rescued.

vs

Rey - Good mechanic, good pilot, beats a wounded/mentally weak Kylo Ren, has raw force power to match Kylo Ren, manages to resist a mind probe and use mind trick with no training, beats Luke 1v1 (Luke had a stick and wasn't using the Force). Beats Snoke's Praetorians with Ren (I think she got 2 and he dropped 4?) .



I don't see how she is more egregious than any others. The flying tricks are a product of improved CGI and a demand for over the top action. I don't doubt that Solo and Luke would have similar OTT action scenes as pilots if Star Wars was launched in 2015 and not 1977. Her fight vs Kylo has been argued to death. Writer intent was that he was wounded, emotionally vulnerable, and wasn't ordered to kill her. She had nothing to lose and fought like a trapped lion. IMO, the worst thing about her character isn't that she the best at everything, it is that she is emotionally flat and overly optimistic. She's not complex whatsoever.

 Mrs. Esterhouse wrote:
Reconsidered? Yea, I've reconsidered. Reconsidered Star Wars! I will now throw my lot in with the Trekkies!

Live long and prosper!

I was talking to my daughter, and there were three things that killed Star Wars love for me.....

1. The Mitochloridian scene
2. That the LOTR trilogy was so good
3. I got old

I've long felt that Episode 1 has the best bones of the prequels. All of its problems are in the details and directing. The plot outline is largely fine.

Personally, the biggest mistake in my mind was not having Hayden Christensen play Anakin from the beginning. Had he been introduced as a teenage podracing prodigy it would have been a far easier transition to the overconfident Jedi Episode 2 had to struggle to introduce and they could have built up his relationship with Padme from the beginning. More than anything, that's the structural failure of the prequels in my mind and unfortunately it comes from the same need to show heroes as anything less than innocent that gave us Greedo's warning shot.

Make Anakin a runaway slave freedom fighter.

Anakin "angron" Skywalker...

"Mary Sue" conventionally means a character inserted by the author as an avatar of themself, with ridiculous powers.

The characters of Anakin, Obi Wan and so on are just heroes.