Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

And remember there's no middle ground on the interwebs, I've seen critics getting bashed over 7/10 scores despite that being a sign of an above average product, likewise with Meta or RT they may as well have red button green button as 2-9 are largely irrelevant

I still hold that Rey cannot be a "nobody", but the vision that Kylo saw of her parents was a combination of Snoke's manipulation, Rey's biggest fear and the force showing Kylo what he needed/wanted to see.

By making it seem like the truth, RJ can both subvert expectation and leave the TRUE reveal for the final chapter.

I enjoyed TLJ, save for a few minor gripes. Luke's projection lightsaber should have been the green one, Akbar should have made the hyperspace sacrifice, etc.
My only real complaint is that several choices were made purely to subvert expectation rather than to truly further the story.
However, Ep IX can still turn these choices into something good, if written well. One example is the first part of my post above. Rey NEEDS to be important, not just Kylo's force-balance equal.
If Rey does not turn out to be either a Skywalker or Kenobi (or maybe both*) than, yeah I'll change my opinion of TLJ and rank it much lower than all the others.




*If Obi-wan had a secret daughter that was about the same age as Luke, in which Luke found and had a child with, that child could be Rey. That's how Rey can be both a Skywalker and Kenobi.
But if they want to do the weird Reylo romance, obviously she can't be a Skywalker (Luke and Leia kissing is enough incest for SW, thank you), but can still be a Kenobi.

-

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
And remember there's no middle ground on the interwebs, I've seen critics getting bashed over 7/10 scores despite that being a sign of an above average product, likewise with Meta or RT they may as well have red button green button as 2-9 are largely irrelevant

It would be interesting to plot all of the scores from all of the users and see the distribution. Without having tried this I guess we would find two modal points, one of them around 75% and one of them around 10%.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
And remember there's no middle ground on the interwebs, I've seen critics getting bashed over 7/10 scores despite that being a sign of an above average product, likewise with Meta or RT they may as well have red button green button as 2-9 are largely irrelevant

It would be interesting to plot all of the scores from all of the users and see the distribution. Without having tried this I guess we would find two modal points, one of them around 75% and one of them around 10%.

don't forget to factor in our dakka poll where only 49% liked the movie.

Dakka is not a reliable metric. Dakka is a specific forum for a relatively specific audience. It would be intersting to figure out if you could find a line in who did and who didn't like the last jedi.

IMHO the movie is designed to be more divisive than say a marvel movie. (With maybe the lone exception of civil war).

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
And remember there's no middle ground on the interwebs, I've seen critics getting bashed over 7/10 scores despite that being a sign of an above average product, likewise with Meta or RT they may as well have red button green button as 2-9 are largely irrelevant

It would be interesting to plot all of the scores from all of the users and see the distribution. Without having tried this I guess we would find two modal points, one of them around 75% and one of them around 10%.

don't forget to factor in our dakka poll where only 49% liked the movie.

Dakka poll?

Another self selecting sample of a tiny minority of movie goers. Statistically worthless.

Part of me thinks Star Wars is cursed with some of the worst examples of toxic fandom.

OMG Luke did a thing he’d not done before and there was another thing and nobody explained where that thing came from and there’s too many girls and like everyone knows that girls can’t be better than boys! Worst movie ever! 1 Star! I’m gonna boycott Solo. I love Star Wars so much, I hope it fails!”

I think that’s how it goes

People who didn't like TLJ, are you going to not watch whatever comes next in the series?

 Galef wrote:
I still hold that Rey cannot be a "nobody", but the vision that Kylo saw of her parents was a combination of Snoke's manipulation, Rey's biggest fear and the force showing Kylo what he needed/wanted to see.

By making it seem like the truth, RJ can both subvert expectation and leave the TRUE reveal for the final chapter.

I enjoyed TLJ, save for a few minor gripes. Luke's projection lightsaber should have been the green one, Akbar should have made the hyperspace sacrifice, etc.
My only real complaint is that several choices were made purely to subvert expectation rather than to truly further the story.
However, Ep IX can still turn these choices into something good, if written well. One example is the first part of my post above. Rey NEEDS to be important, not just Kylo's force-balance equal.
If Rey does not turn out to be either a Skywalker or Kenobi (or maybe both*) than, yeah I'll change my opinion of TLJ and rank it much lower than all the others.
-

To be fair that lightsaber was the last one he saw before doing the projection, and it was his Father's.

Why is Rey's Parentage so important to you? If she turns out to be a Skywalker or Kenobi, doesn't that feel forced? (Pardon the pun)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
People who didn't like TLJ, are you going to not watch whatever comes next in the series?

If I've learned anything about the internet it is they love to waste a lot of time hate watching stuff.

Oh I rembered the number 4 I couldn't earlier.

4)The movie doesn't try to have a central theme. And if it did it wasn't clear enough.

It did have a central theme: learn from failure and it brought Yoda in to drive that point home.

Did we ever get an explanation for why Luke left a map behind if he didn’t want to be found? Am I missing something?

No Galef backtracking now on who Rey's parents are ,would be bad storytelling and retroactively devalue her confrontation with Kylo Ren. And it would break the mirror characterisation between her and Kylo Ren.

IMHO what the cave meant :Rey does not need her parents, she is her own parents.

Also I think he didn't leave the map as much as people figured out he was at the temple and then didn't know where the temple was.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
People who didn't like TLJ, are you going to not watch whatever comes next in the series?

most likely as they are always spectacle movies worth seeing on the big screen but I'm long past day 1 midnight screenings

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Why is Rey's Parentage so important to you? If she turns out to be a Skywalker or Kenobi, doesn't that feel forced? (Pardon the pun).

Because this is the Skywalker Saga and the main protagonist should be one. Kylo is decidedly NOT the protagonist and while that is an interesting twist, the real protagonist should be, or at least a Kenobi for "rhyming" purposes. It would also be a better explanation than "the force chose her to be that powerful to balance Kylo".
This was clearly how she was set up in TFA. JJ left way too many clues pointing in that direction. RJ throw them out for the sake of "subverting expectations" and that was not the best decision.

Reconnecting the story with Rey being someone of familiar significance would tie up the SKYWALKER sage in a nice tidy bow. Having her be a random nobody is both unsatisfying and kinda spits in the face of Anakin being special at all. Because if anybody can be super special, than why do the Skywalkers matter?
Rey being either a Kenobi or a Skywailker has a nice symmetry about it too.

-

 Formosa wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah ah ah.

All big budget. All Disney. All having poor reviews.

So much for 'scared of the big boys', eh?

In all fairness, not one of those films has as much riding on them as the Star Wars franchise and the video games industry has been doing it for years, so it’s not much of a stretch to wonder if the movie industry is doing or has done the same thing.

Thing is, short of someone whistle blowing or catching them red handed, how can someone prove it beyond a shadow of doubt ?

Doubt proves innocence not guilt.

You need to prove that they ARE doing something to follow through on that line of thinking. If you can't prove guilt then you should be assuming innocence. At least, thats how fair legal system work that are not built on witch hunts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Why is Rey's Parentage so important to you? If she turns out to be a Skywalker or Kenobi, doesn't that feel forced? (Pardon the pun).

Because this is the Skywalker Saga and the main protagonist should be one. Kylo is decidedly NOT the protagonist and while that is an interesting twist, the real protagonist should be, or at least a Kenobi for "rhyming" purposes. It would also be a better explanation than "the force chose her to be that powerful to balance Kylo".
This was clearly how she was set up in TFA. JJ left way too many clues pointing in that direction. RJ throw them out for the sake of "subverting expectations" and that was not the best decision.

Reconnecting the story with Rey being someone of familiar significance would tie up the SKYWALKER sage in a nice tidy bow. Having her be a random nobody is both unsatisfying and kinda spits in the face of Anakin being special at all. Because if anybody can be super special, than why do the Skywalkers matter?
Rey being either a Kenobi or a Skywailker has a nice symmetry about it too.

-

I want you to picture the scene.

Rey is arguing with Kylo.

"I had a vision too. I know who your parents were... You are a Kenobi!"

Rey "... Who?"


Rey has no idea who the hell Kenobi is/was. That is a scene that would mean nothing to the people in the film and only something to the viewers. It would be full on terrible.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
To be fair that lightsaber was the last one he saw before doing the projection, and it was his Father's.

Right...that saber is the symbolic one for a duel with all kinds of symbolic meaning.

Why is Rey's Parentage so important to you? If she turns out to be a Skywalker or Kenobi, doesn't that feel forced? (Pardon the pun)

It'll be very interesting to see where it goes from here, in a series where the directors are empowered to do as they like. I don't think it could be clearer that JJ cast Daisy Ridley with the idea that Rey is some relation to the Skywalkers. She could easily pass for a sister of Natalie Portman or the young Carrie Fisher. But will JJ undo what Rian undid? That seems improbable, although maybe he'll cook up a 'third way' option.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If I've learned anything about the internet it is they love to waste a lot of time hate watching stuff.

Yep. And give them a cool trailer and they'll be right back on board anyway.

That's the biggest problem.

Second : is there a problem with the lord of the rings being the villain?

The skywalker family has to be important. They don't have to bring the protagonist. The main conflct for the protagonist is sufficient.

It reminds of a rule the writers of Rebels (the animated series ) have: for every known character we introduce we also have to introduce an unknown one. Otherwise you get small galaxy syndrome. 40K has that problem in spades.

I remember the theory going around that Rey was the reincarnation of Anakin. So you’d have the situation were Anakin’s grandchild has went off the rails trying to imitate him, and the son who redeemed Anakin is now training him to redem his grand child, tempering him with the lessons he learned from dealing with him in another life.

Yea but there is also rumours going around about Jar Jar being the true Sith Lord and Snoke being Mace Windu in disguise so I wouldn't give rumours too much credence!

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
And remember there's no middle ground on the interwebs, I've seen critics getting bashed over 7/10 scores despite that being a sign of an above average product, likewise with Meta or RT they may as well have red button green button as 2-9 are largely irrelevant

It would be interesting to plot all of the scores from all of the users and see the distribution. Without having tried this I guess we would find two modal points, one of them around 75% and one of them around 10%.

don't forget to factor in our dakka poll where only 49% liked the movie.

Dakka poll?

Another self selecting sample of a tiny minority of movie goers. Statistically worthless.

Part of me thinks Star Wars is cursed with some of the worst examples of toxic fandom.

OMG Luke did a thing he’d not done before and there was another thing and nobody explained where that thing came from and there’s too many girls and like everyone knows that girls can’t be better than boys! Worst movie ever! 1 Star! I’m gonna boycott Solo. I love Star Wars so much, I hope it fails!”

I think that’s how it goes

For what it's worth I have met one person IRL that actually enjoyed TLJ (other than me and I don't think it's great) versus several who openly despise it. The hatred for it is likely exaggerated on the internet, but it is certainly not a widely beloved film by any metric.

Lighting the green saber is probably the biggest mistake Luke ever made. It makes a lot of sense for him to not use it again. In a very personal battle between Luke and Kylo, using the Blue saber carries a very different meaning than the Green.

It's also foreshadowing he's not real. If you look closely at the handle he uses Anakin's lightsaber. The one that just got destroyed.

I know more people that like the movie then dislike it. The one I know that hates it the most is mostly because she can't take Kylo serious as a villain.

Kylo Ren is an awesome villain for the millenial generation.

He's the Star Wars villain equivalent of those angsty boy ballad singers who are all over the radio these days.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah ah ah.

All big budget. All Disney. All having poor reviews.

So much for 'scared of the big boys', eh?

In all fairness, not one of those films has as much riding on them as the Star Wars franchise and the video games industry has been doing it for years, so it’s not much of a stretch to wonder if the movie industry is doing or has done the same thing.

Thing is, short of someone whistle blowing or catching them red handed, how can someone prove it beyond a shadow of doubt ?

Doubt proves innocence not guilt.

You need to prove that they ARE doing something to follow through on that line of thinking. If you can't prove guilt then you should be assuming innocence. At least, thats how fair legal system work that are not built on witch hunts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Why is Rey's Parentage so important to you? If she turns out to be a Skywalker or Kenobi, doesn't that feel forced? (Pardon the pun).

Because this is the Skywalker Saga and the main protagonist should be one. Kylo is decidedly NOT the protagonist and while that is an interesting twist, the real protagonist should be, or at least a Kenobi for "rhyming" purposes. It would also be a better explanation than "the force chose her to be that powerful to balance Kylo".
This was clearly how she was set up in TFA. JJ left way too many clues pointing in that direction. RJ throw them out for the sake of "subverting expectations" and that was not the best decision.

Reconnecting the story with Rey being someone of familiar significance would tie up the SKYWALKER sage in a nice tidy bow. Having her be a random nobody is both unsatisfying and kinda spits in the face of Anakin being special at all. Because if anybody can be super special, than why do the Skywalkers matter?
Rey being either a Kenobi or a Skywailker has a nice symmetry about it too.

-

I want you to picture the scene.

Rey is arguing with Kylo.

"I had a vision too. I know who your parents were... You are a Kenobi!"

Rey "... Who?"


Rey has no idea who the hell Kenobi is/was. That is a scene that would mean nothing to the people in the film and only something to the viewers. It would be full on terrible.

No gak Sherlock, that was the whole point of me saying

“Short if someone whistle blowing or catching them red handed, how can someone prove it beyond a shadow of doubt”

Wow...

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Kylo Ren is an awesome villain for the millenial generation.

He's the Star Wars villain equivalent of those angsty boy ballad singers who are all over the radio these days.

hehe, and it's a bit of a shame as nearly all the actors are way better than the wobbly characters they portray (apart from Daisy who does that whole David Mitchell with a lightsaber schtick, ie posh and peeved)

 LunarSol wrote:
Lighting the green saber is probably the biggest mistake Luke ever made. It makes a lot of sense for him to not use it again. In a very personal battle between Luke and Kylo, using the Blue saber carries a very different meaning than the Green.

Indeed an argument could be made that using the green lightsaber carries specific meaning because it was Luke's biggest mistake and one that Kylo would be infuriated more by seeing.
Both could have worked, but the fanboy in me wanted to see the green one used in more than a flashback.

With any luck, Rey will have fashioned as new lightsaber in IX using her staff, the blue crystal of Anakin's and maybe, just maybe the green crystal of Luke's (found somewhere on Ach-to).
Double bladed blue/green lightsaber FTW!

-

 Kilkrazy wrote:
People who didn't like TLJ, are you going to not watch whatever comes next in the series?

Watched Solo, LOVED IT - I am on board for more SW. TLJ is still a piece of gak, IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Kylo Ren is an awesome villain for the millenial generation.

Totally agree, I love that character and TLJ is at its best when he is on the screen. Wish the same could be said for how the movie deals with Rey, Poe, Finn, and Luke.

Ok, question.

Rey being a Kenobi. How does that work exactly? Either she’s a lot older than she looks, Old man Obi Wan got mummy Rey up the duff via force ghost, or it’s kinda Great Uncle Obi. Funny Obi Wan never mentioned having a sibling, but then he didn’t recall ever owning a droid either, so ...

I guess that could be explored in Kenobi: A Star Wars Story.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Ok, question.

Rey being a Kenobi. How does that work exactly? Either she’s a lot older than she looks, Old man Obi Wan got mummy Rey up the duff via force ghost, or it’s kinda Great Uncle Obi. Funny Obi Wan never mentioned having a sibling, but then he didn’t recall ever owning a droid either, so ...

Obi-wan had a romantic relationship with Satine, a character from the Clone Wars. This is cannon.
Rey would not be Kenobi's daughter, but rather his granddaughter. If Satine had a child and hide her from Obi-wan (because he is a jedi and she was a political figure) than it is entirely possible for that child to be Rey's parent.
All the better if Luke is the other parent, making Rey BOTH a Kenobi AND a Skywalker. After TLJ, I have very little hope of this being true, but it still could be, presuming Kylo was shown a lie in his vision of Rey.

The point would be to show that Obi-wan and Anakin were destined to meet and their decedents are forever connected by the force as balanced sides of the same coin.

-

 Manchu wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
People who didn't like TLJ, are you going to not watch whatever comes next in the series?

Watched Solo, LOVED IT - I am on board for more SW. TLJ is still a piece of gak, IMO.

I’m interested to see Solo. So far the Sequels have been utterly pointless, but I liked Rogue One. I wish Disney would have concentrated more on expanding the SW universe more into other stories set at the time of the OT. I’m not excited at the prospect of an Obi Wan movie or a Boba Fett movie etc. I would be interested in new stories with new characters set around the OT period. However SW continues to act like a galaxy is a really tiny place with only a few people that matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also wish they’d do something a bit more radical like making the main character an alien.