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I have to say I agree with the predominant opinion here, Battletech doesn't need aliens. It's one of the reasons I like it as a science fiction setting. It is very much a "grim" future tale of ancient Rome. There are far too many science fiction settings full-to-bursting with aliens.

If people don't like an IP, there is no shortage of other ones they can enjoy or invest themselves into. I don't see the "Well, we should change it so it appeals to this other small percentage of people". The pursuit of pleasing everyone is often the death knell of a product/IP.

Battletech is more in need of cleaning up its attic than anything else. It needs a full re-design visually (they're working on it), probably a redesign in game mechanics, and they need to cull the superfluous hundreds of books/PDFs/expansions and concentrate on making a better quality base product from which to re-establish themselves. It's an IP and setting/product line which has become both old and way too expansive for its own good. I don't think Catalyst is the one to fix it, but this is a start.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Spoiler:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

BattleTech

Page Liked · 40 mins ·
..
IT'S HERE!!

just posted on facebook

So when is it supposed to be available again?

In a month or two; it's still in production.

That pic is the product they had done early for Gencon. Catalyst loves releasing product early at Gencon, creating a black market for a few months and making their fans upset. It's like the only thing they get done on time every year!

Yeah, that was throwing me off, thanks.

 Elbows wrote:
I have to say I agree with the predominant opinion here, Battletech doesn't need aliens. It's one of the reasons I like it as a science fiction setting. It is very much a "grim" future tale of ancient Rome. There are far too many science fiction settings full-to-bursting with aliens.

If people don't like an IP, there is no shortage of other ones they can enjoy or invest themselves into. I don't see the "Well, we should change it so it appeals to this other small percentage of people". The pursuit of pleasing everyone is often the death knell of a product/IP.

Battletech is more in need of cleaning up its attic than anything else. It needs a full re-design visually (they're working on it), probably a redesign in game mechanics, and they need to cull the superfluous hundreds of books/PDFs/expansions and concentrate on making a better quality base product from which to re-establish themselves. It's an IP and setting/product line which has become both old and way too expansive for its own good. I don't think Catalyst is the one to fix it, but this is a start.

I don't think aliens would *harm* Battletech, as long as they weren't as poorly done as they were for Renegade Legion - the aliens in that game (which, to me, were based off Enemy Mine) had no impact on the game whatsoever and were very poorly fleshed out. I think, that if handled well, a true alien invasion would be interesting in Battletech - as long as the aliens drove a distinctive, unbefore-seen different tech and mechs (maybe not even Mechs but some form of alien tech that battlemechs turn out to be the "answer" to combating). A Starseige sort of AI invasion/rebellion would be interesting as well.

But I could completely do without it, so long as they don't ditch the old unseen classics.

 Stormonu wrote:
I think, that if handled well, a true alien invasion would be interesting in Battletech - as long as the aliens drove a distinctive, unbefore-seen different tech and mechs (maybe not even Mechs but some form of alien tech that battlemechs turn out to be the "answer" to combating). A Starseige sort of AI invasion/rebellion would be interesting as well.

Isn't that just Macross/Robotech and the Zentradi?

Also, this is getting waaaaaay off topic from the Battletech starter sets.

 Elbows wrote:
I have to say I agree with the predominant opinion here, Battletech doesn't need aliens. It's one of the reasons I like it as a science fiction setting. It is very much a "grim" future tale of ancient Rome. There are far too many science fiction settings full-to-bursting with aliens.

If people don't like an IP, there is no shortage of other ones they can enjoy or invest themselves into. I don't see the "Well, we should change it so it appeals to this other small percentage of people". The pursuit of pleasing everyone is often the death knell of a product/IP.

Battletech is more in need of cleaning up its attic than anything else. It needs a full re-design visually (they're working on it), probably a redesign in game mechanics, and they need to cull the superfluous hundreds of books/PDFs/expansions and concentrate on making a better quality base product from which to re-establish themselves. It's an IP and setting/product line which has become both old and way too expansive for its own good. I don't think Catalyst is the one to fix it, but this is a start.

You know, the interesting thing about Battletech is that it can be whatever you want it to be. In that respect, it is very much like GURPS, the D20 system, or bolt on games like that. You could probably get away with a bit of clever branding- make sure you plaster what eras each mech is ok for on its package, every website, and every sourcebook- and have a brief, informative rundown of each era in a timeline on your webpage. Make it very clear what is Core, what is Succession Wars, Jihad, Dark Ages, Clan Invasion etc.

I think a full reboot would either have to invalidate thousands of products, which with the current release schedule would NEVER be covered again, or do a Star Wars Legends style decanonization (is exocommunication the right term?)

You can historically see it having happened with Dark Ages. They did a time jump, and redesigned and rebuilt all the minis. It was ultimately unsuccessful. Conversely, Alpha Strike was a rules redesign that added rules for all existing mechs- a colossal undertaking, and put it in a free website. It is easy, intuitive, and thrives alongside Classic Battletech. Even the clever choice of label indicates that Classic is the old Battletech, not to be considered standard or regular, just Classic.

New minis are the thing that's going to grow and sell it. The Alpha Strike lance packs, but instead with 4 new mechs, will maintain momentum, and won't take up too much space in the shops. Put out 2 lances a year, or a Lance and a Star. Include cards, and folded up record sheets. Discuss with Ironwind Metals a deal to have them continue to produce the mechs that won't be covered by the plastic, or strategically place holes in the line. Welcome to your Clan Heavy Star. You've got a Nova, Mad Dog, Storm Crow, Loki and Summoner- if you want a Timber Wolf, hit up IWM.

But that's all stuff for the licenseholder to do. For now, if you're really worried about Battletech growing, buy some minis. Play some games at your gameshops, teach somebody. I've got 2 budding Alpha Strike players at home, and they're spending tomorrow attempting to teach it to their grandpa. If we love the game, play it and teach it, it will spread.

 Elbows wrote:
... and they need to cull the superfluous hundreds of books/PDFs/expansions and concentrate on making a better quality base product from which to re-establish themselves.

Why? And what makes them superfluous?

If you want to just play straight Battletech, then there's this. You want more depth, you get Total War and then the Tactical/Strategic/Interstellar Operations books. If you want to build your own units, you get the Tech Manual. If you want to run campaigns, you get Campaign Operations.

Everything after that - TROs, record sheets, source books, etc. - is optional. I'll agree that they are not necessary, and you can hold the opinion that they are superfluous, but for a lot of us they add to the universe even if they aren't required reading.

 Gitzbitah wrote:
Well, let's put it another way- what could they add? An unknown force appears from nowhere, with equal or slightly better technology than the Inner Sphere- well, that's the Clans or Word of Blake again. Especially Word of Blake, where the Manei Dominei don't even consider themselves humans.

Biological battlemechs.... pretty much Battle Armor and Protomechs.

Perhaps play it as pockets of advanced technology left over from a vanished civilization? That's Lostech.

I'm just not sure what plots aliens could add to the mix.

Turn things around. Rather than aliens coming here have humans find them and start invasion. That is at least something not seen often. Usually it's just super powerful aliens invading humans.

Though i can live without aliens even though it lowers believability of setting

 Gitzbitah wrote:
You can historically see it having happened with Dark Ages. They did a time jump, and redesigned and rebuilt all the minis. It was ultimately unsuccessful. Conversely, Alpha Strike was a rules redesign that added rules for all existing mechs- a colossal undertaking, and put it in a free website. It is easy, intuitive, and thrives alongside Classic Battletech. Even the clever choice of label indicates that Classic is the old Battletech, not to be considered standard or regular, just Classic.

Are you familiar with what happened to BattleTech and the intellectual property when FASA decided to close shop?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech_(board_game)#History

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Oh? Last page you said Battletech wouldn't grow because the minis sucked. Now it is because the community sucks? Make up your mind, man!

So I forgot to say "another reason".

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
... and they need to cull the superfluous hundreds of books/PDFs/expansions and concentrate on making a better quality base product from which to re-establish themselves.

Why? And what makes them superfluous?

If you want to just play straight Battletech, then there's this. You want more depth, you get Total War and then the Tactical/Strategic/Interstellar Operations books. If you want to build your own units, you get the Tech Manual. If you want to run campaigns, you get Campaign Operations.

Everything after that - TROs, record sheets, source books, etc. - is optional. I'll agree that they are not necessary, and you can hold the opinion that they are superfluous, but for a lot of us they add to the universe even if they aren't required reading.

I don't imagine I'll end up playing Battletech again in the future (dabbled in/out since the mid-90's). However I think it's a nearly impossible product to sell to new gamers because of the completely scatter-brained "do anything" approach they've adopted with...what, thousands of mech designs? I do think there is a point where a product becomes way too big and becomes an insurmountable mountain to new gamers. The starter box will only get you so far, but then you're confronted by an avalanche of waaaaaaaay too many small PDFs and expansions. When I went back to Battletech a few years ago, I ended up just giving up and buying some old TROs on eBay and designing my own game out of it.

Yeah I don't see it.

Looking at the GW store right now, and assuming that, say, 20% of them are duplicates or bundles, there are over 1000 units for 40K, and for Warhammer (which has less overlap, so assume 10% are bundles) there would be close to 600 units.

Add in Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Quest and a few others (and terrain, which also has rules now) and it would be easy to hit 2000 units.

I don't consider GW's products to be confusing or overwhelming. Additionally, that's why so many of these products like starter boxes exist, to ease you into it.

A new BattleTech player isn't going to care that there are 29 canon variants for the BattleMaster. I'm not a new BTech player and I don't care that there are 29 BattleMaster variants. That's not going to be a factor in whether someone likes this game or not.

And the fact that they put so much into the main book (various unit types) and got away from the core of BTech is the very reason why they put the BattleTech Manual that I linked to out. It's just 'Mechs, and it's 90% of the rules that 90% of people use 90% of the time (or something along those lines).

I'm just not seeing how this "avalanche" of products is going to confuse anyone when so many of them are not required for game play.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
... and they need to cull the superfluous hundreds of books/PDFs/expansions and concentrate on making a better quality base product from which to re-establish themselves.

Why? And what makes them superfluous?

If you want to just play straight Battletech, then there's this. You want more depth, you get Total War and then the Tactical/Strategic/Interstellar Operations books. If you want to build your own units, you get the Tech Manual. If you want to run campaigns, you get Campaign Operations.

Everything after that - TROs, record sheets, source books, etc. - is optional. I'll agree that they are not necessary, and you can hold the opinion that they are superfluous, but for a lot of us they add to the universe even if they aren't required reading.

Hmmm.

It's not that the books are superfluous. It's that Catalyst seems to treat them as the be-all, end-all. It's a boardgame/miniature game hybrid in many ways, with RPG elements (with an actual RPG thrown in on top), so books are important, but their approach is scattergun in many ways, if only because they don't even appear to be able to keep what should be "core" products, like the main rulebooks you mentioned, in print, or even a proper starter kit.

And I get why, I understand the issues, etc, etc. The licensing issues are kind of crippling, considering the metal miniatures are produced over there, the written material is produced over that way, and so on. It's hard for a small company to keep product on the shelves, no doubt. But.... surely it's harder to do it if you have 100 books as opposed to, say, 15?

The five-volume core rules approach is nice, it keeps all of the rules in specific places, BUT. Having to pick up the main rules and then wait a year while they manage to push out another printing of the Tech Manual so you can actually construct mechs is kind of ludicrous. Especially when they're constantly banging on about the next sourcebook for a new era you might not even care for, release imminent! Gen Con! Maybe! Then silence for six months until it quietly creeps out onto shelves and disappears before you can get it anyway!!!!

None of the books are trash. They're nice. I love sourcebooks. Sourcebook me to death (you know, if they're affordable). But if you have people sitting on their hands waiting for a core rulebook or a boxed starter (sometimes upwards of several years) then you are shooting yourselves in the goddamn face. That is unacceptably poor. If culling the number of available print books, and future ongoing writing work means you can devote more resources to maintaining shelf space and products, then GOOD LORD why the hell won't you do that?

CGL need to really assess what they think Battletech is. They need to make real moves toward plastic miniature production. Warhansa and Insane Kangaroo are providing some of the best tabletop Battletech-related products currently available. They're doing this because CGL/IWM aren't. This can be changed.

Market Alpha Strike as a straight up skirmish miniatures game. Adopt some of the aspects of the new computer games like hardpoints, stability damage, etc. Produce mech packs for the modernised, redesigned mechs. A Marauder, Warhammer, Archer and Shadowhawk pack (just as an example) should sell pretty well. Just release two or three a year. Offer the individual mechs for sale on the website.

None of this is cheap or easy. But without making a real effort to push the game out there it's just going to continue looking like a sick man amongst much healthier games.

One thing to keep in mind ios Battletech's product cycle is more akin to an RPG setting then a wargame, of those thousands of books, over 90% of them are 90% fluff.

 ekwatts wrote:
It's not that the books are superfluous. It's that Catalyst seems to treat them as the be-all, end-all. It's a boardgame/miniature game hybrid in many ways, with RPG elements (with an actual RPG thrown in on top), so books are important, but their approach is scattergun in many ways, if only because they don't even appear to be able to keep what should be "core" products, like the main rulebooks you mentioned, in print, or even a proper starter kit.

Completely agree with you. They - Catalyst that is, I won't speak for HBS or PGI or Iron Wind - have a real problem with focus. They have a lot of ideas that they want to get out there, and sometimes certain get more attention than perhaps they really should.

For example, it's great that they finally did big source books covering the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars, but I'd argue whether they're necessary or not. Not superfluous, but for a company that needs to have its core rules and some in-store introductory material in play, why spend so much time on a pair of books that are 100% nice-to-haves and 0% need-to-haves.

And speaking of focus, even as the core books were coming out, they kept getting out of control. I mean, Interstellar and Campaign Operations exist because they just kept writing more stuff. They bit off more than they could chew several times.

 ekwatts wrote:
And I get why, I understand the issues, etc, etc. The licensing issues are kind of crippling, considering the metal miniatures are produced over there, the written material is produced over that way, and so on. It's hard for a small company to keep product on the shelves, no doubt. But.... surely it's harder to do it if you have 100 books as opposed to, say, 15?

I think that's part of why they get into the short-form PDF releases (XTRO's, Touring the Stars, etc.) because they were simple products with a (comparatively) quicker turnaround time. So whilst they work on the next Big Thing™, they can have smaller releases in between. Then the gaps started getting longer, so even the "quick" books between big books became quite rare. They also had a big period with no one captaining the ship. That cannot be ignored.

 ekwatts wrote:
The five-volume core rules approach is nice, it keeps all of the rules in specific places, BUT. Having to pick up the main rules and then wait a year while they manage to push out another printing of the Tech Manual so you can actually construct mechs is kind of ludicrous.

I think that's why the Tech Manual exists, because it's not core to the game of BattleTech, so they kept it in a separate book. It's the most optional of the core books. I also think that BattleTech manual is an example of them finally realising that they need a single product that just lets you play the core experience of BattleTech (big stompy robots fighting each other). That plus the new Starter Box, if they can sort out their supply issues and keep it supported with additional releases (those Lance Packs were ace last time around) will help them grow.

 ekwatts wrote:
Especially when they're constantly banging on about the next sourcebook for a new era you might not even care for, release imminent! Gen Con! Maybe! Then silence for six months until it quietly creeps out onto shelves and disappears before you can get it anyway!!!!

I do hope that changes. I mean, I remember the excitement of the Gen-Con before Interstellar Players 2 came out, with the guys dressed as Wobbie cultists throwing out torn pages of the book as propaganda, people online trying to work out what this was, and the boom, a whole book filled with tons of great stuff, released on the day, available for download right away. They've never captured that since.

 ekwatts wrote:
None of the books are trash. They're nice. I love sourcebooks. Sourcebook me to death (you know, if they're affordable). But if you have people sitting on their hands waiting for a core rulebook or a boxed starter (sometimes upwards of several years) then you are shooting yourselves in the goddamn face. That is unacceptably poor. If culling the number of available print books, and future ongoing writing work means you can devote more resources to maintaining shelf space and products, then GOOD LORD why the hell won't you do that?

CGL need to really assess what they think Battletech is. They need to make real moves toward plastic miniature production. Warhansa and Insane Kangaroo are providing some of the best tabletop Battletech-related products currently available. They're doing this because CGL/IWM aren't. This can be changed.

There's a market there that they are not exploiting. They are, in a lot of ways, leaving money on the table.

 ekwatts wrote:
Market Alpha Strike as a straight up skirmish miniatures game. Adopt some of the aspects of the new computer games like hardpoints, stability damage, etc. Produce mech packs for the modernised, redesigned mechs. A Marauder, Warhammer, Archer and Shadowhawk pack (just as an example) should sell pretty well. Just release two or three a year. Offer the individual mechs for sale on the website.

None of this is cheap or easy. But without making a real effort to push the game out there it's just going to continue looking like a sick man amongst much healthier games.

I personally don't like Alpha Strike because, to me at least, it defeats the purpose of why I got into BTech in the first place besides the lore (I love the super crunchy rules), but it is a good way to get people involved that they should put more into.

BrianDavion wrote:
One thing to keep in mind ios Battletech's product cycle is more akin to an RPG setting then a wargame, of those thousands of books, over 90% of them are 90% fluff.

Which is partly why people get frustrated: inability to pick up the core rulebooks for nigh on two years while waiting for reprints, having to order overpriced 1980s-era miniatures from the US, while glorified storybooks seem to be the only thing they're ever actively working on.

 ekwatts wrote:
... having to order overpriced 1980s-era miniatures from the US...

A lot of those old miniatures can be found more locally.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ekwatts wrote:
... having to order overpriced 1980s-era miniatures from the US...

A lot of those old miniatures can be found more locally.

Indeed! For prices that almost match the better redesigns being sold by Warhansa and Insane Kangaroo, once exchange rates are factored in

My point was that the miniatures are produced beyond CGL's direct control, which for most people is quite odd. Having to order miniatures from a completely separate company (whether IWM or Ral Partha) is kind of jarring to those coming into Battletech from outside.

And RPUK/EU are great, but their selection is somewhat limited and while the CGL plastics were in production, they were pretty much completely superfluous (which, while bad for Ral Partha, was no bad thing for UK Battletech fans). It illustrates what a massive advantage having their own plastics line of redesigned miniatures can really be.

so, anyway, this Awesome is pretty awesome.

Is that Awesome carved foam? I want one.

Guy in the Catalyst booth is giving a mean stink-eye, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:


Though i can live without aliens even though it lowers believability of setting

In the setting explored space has not encountered advanced aliens. There *are* aliens in Battletech but they are the flora and fauna kind that can make colonizing a planet difficult. Personally, I find the lack of advanced civilizations makes the setting more believable. I figure we are going to find the equivalent of space bugs and space cows and space oak trees before we find an Eldar or Tau type civilization.

But again, this is so off topic from a Battletech news perspective, it almost feels like trolling. Not saying you are trolling tneva82, but rather this whole aliens tangent is annoying and started by someone who has questionable intentions in this thread imo.

CGL Employee is not amused.

Starter sets looks good. I'm wondering if I should try and flog my complete last version starter set for some funds on eBay. They seem to sell well.

 infinite_array wrote:

Starter sets looks good. I'm wondering if I should try and flog my complete last version starter set for some funds on eBay. They seem to sell well.

Now might be the time to do it. As judgedoug said earlier, there will be a sort of black market for the new starter sets for the next month or two until they hit full retail. People missing out on the new sets might be interested in getting an older one to hold them over in the meanwhile.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

Starter sets looks good. I'm wondering if I should try and flog my complete last version starter set for some funds on eBay. They seem to sell well.

Now might be the time to do it. As judgedoug said earlier, there will be a sort of black market for the new starter sets for the next month or two until they hit full retail. People missing out on the new sets might be interested in getting an older one to hold them over in the meanwhile.

If it is the 2014 reissue with the sweet Atlas on the cover, yes, do sell. You could then use the money to buy all the Lance Packs on the cheap and get back all the mechs plus extras, and still have money to buy the new starters.

Davor wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
How do aliens miss the point of Battletech?

From my understanding, it's one of the fluff genres that don't have aliens. So it makes it a bit more unique. Also and I can be getting this wrong, it's about the struggles of humanity. So even it's in the far future, have better tech, the struggles are still going on like they are now. So no aliens are needed. For me after reading the same story over and over again, adding aliens could make a change for the better if done properly. Thing is, how do you add in aliens that haven't done before, and improve the game play without making it same as this or that, or adding in for no originality. I see both stories for and against now. Hope this helps a bit.

That makes sense. Thanks for explaining!

Here are pictures of the annual Gen Con Camo Specs Online diorama.

Looks like they went for the classic fight of Wolf's Dragoons versus House Kurita on the ice world Misery. The starter box minis were used for much of this piece.

Lookit all them redesigned Macross mechs that they are now allowed to use

That Archer is SWEET (and so is the Marauder sure)

The Atlas punch is my favorite. Don't feth with Zeta Battalion!

The Archer and Marauder are gorgeous. Can't wait to get some!

 judgedoug wrote:
so, anyway, this Awesome is pretty awesome.

Oh my. Is this Magnus the Red ride? I wouldn;t have noticed but the cannons stick out so much because they are painted all I can think of is Magnus the Red now.


One thing I really like what Catalyst does is, their PDFs are so much cheeper than the paper versions. So while the rules could be like $50 Cdn, the PDF is $15 Cdn. So if you don't want paper format their PDF versions are really costed properly. A good way of getting into Battletech if you don't mind not having hard copies.

Those new mechs in the display look pretty nice. Is that Atlas a new sculpt or the plastic one repositioned? It looks much better than all the other pics of the plastic models I have seen.

Oh my. I am wrong. Seeing those minis painted, they are really good. I was so wrong about the quality of the minis from my previous statements about bad quality minis.

I may complain a lot, but I will admit when I am wrong.

 Sabotage! wrote:
Those new mechs in the display look pretty nice. Is that Atlas a new sculpt or the plastic one repositioned? It looks much better than all the other pics of the plastic models I have seen.

It looks like the re-sculpted metal Atlas to me, but I could be wrong.

The re-sculpt is very poseable and lends itself well to dynamic modeling. Downside is it comes in a bunch of pieces.

These are all the same model posed in various ways.