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 Kalamadea wrote:
I'm excited for this new starter with the completely resculpted mechs, but while the models look miles ahead of the 2009 starter, you only get 8. Getting 24 in the old set, even if they were low quality, was an incredible value to a brand new player

I think they're worth the increase in price; they look phenomenal - but I hope the sales are insanely good and Catalyst releases updated Lance Packs with Anthony Scroggins style mechs. I'd pay $25 for a pack of 4 redesigns in plastic, personally.

I'd much rather have 8 good looking miniatures than 24 bad looking ones. Hell, I'd much rather have even a single good looking miniature. I don't want bad looking miniatures at all. At that point I might as well use coins or paper cutouts.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I'd much rather have 8 good looking miniatures than 24 bad looking ones. Hell, I'd much rather have even a single good looking miniature. I don't want bad looking miniatures at all. At that point I might as well use coins or paper cutouts.

I don't think the 24 'Mechs in the last boxed set were bad looking. It was the cheap manufacturing techniques for the 24 'Mechs in the box before that that made them such a dud.

Once they improve the quality of that they were fantastic playing pieces and a wonderfully cheap way to bulk up your forces. And, as others have said, 24 'mechs (26 actually) in a single box is so much to work with when it comes to BTech. Add the Lance Packs to that and you could conceivably never buy another miniature.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
[And, as others have said, 24 'mechs (26 actually) in a single box is so much to work with when it comes to BTech. Add the Lance Packs to that and you could conceivably never buy another miniature.

Was that was the problem with the last 2 box sets? For many they were a 'game in a box' instead of a starter set. When a sensible time game is only 4v4 giving a player 26 options means they generally dont have to buy anything else. Especially when the box set came with 2 quick reference cards etc.

Maybe a starter set should be 4-6 models and aimed at a starter game of 2v2 at a lower price point to encourage new players to then expand into lance packs. Sort of like X-Wing model but no single mech packs.

From a retailer point of view (im not a retailer) the old btech box sets are just a one off sale, how does a store justify promoting/stocking a game when there is very little scope for ongoing sales past the 'starter box'?

 MangoMadness wrote:
Was that was the problem with the last 2 box sets? For many they were a 'game in a box' instead of a starter set. When a sensible time game is only 4v4 giving a player 26 options means they generally dont have to buy anything else. Especially when the box set came with 2 quick reference cards etc.

Maybe a starter set should be 4-6 models and aimed at a starter game of 2v2 at a lower price point to encourage new players to then expand into lance packs. Sort of like X-Wing model but no single mech packs.

From a retailer point of view (im not a retailer) the old btech box sets are just a one off sale, how does a store justify promoting/stocking a game when there is very little scope for ongoing sales past the 'starter box'?

As said earlier in the thread, you don't have to even buy miniatures for BTech. It's a P&P game that works with maps and counters.

And why would people want anything else? Because people might want to play with different 'Mechs. There are over 3000 variants/'Mech designs. As good as 26 'Mechs are, they represent a fraction of what the game offers. And that's before we even get into aircraft, tanks, infantry, and so on.

It's a starterbox because it introduces you to that universe and shows you what else is possible.

I'm going to get two of these base sets of this one. Great looking minis great game!!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As said earlier in the thread, you don't have to even buy miniatures for BTech. It's a P&P game that works with maps and counters.

Lol, how to make a complete failure of a game in 2018 - Step 1: give it cardboard standees instead of miniatures

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And why would people want anything else? Because people might want to play with different 'Mechs. There are over 3000 variants/'Mech designs. As good as 26 'Mechs are, they represent a fraction of what the game offers. And that's before we even get into aircraft, tanks, infantry, and so on.

You obviously dont know how retail works because there is 0% chance a store will stock anywhere near 3000 designs.

They have to market Btech not only to customers but to retailers, to do so you need a 'core set' and 'expansion packs' (lance packs) that a retailer can progressively sell and make money from. Ignore the retailers and Btech will continue to be a game noone plays and very few people even buy.

 MangoMadness wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As said earlier in the thread, you don't have to even buy miniatures for BTech. It's a P&P game that works with maps and counters.

Lol, how to make a complete failure of a game in 2018 - Step 1: give it cardboard standees instead of miniatures

Really? I'm told Dead of Winter, to name just one game, sold like gangbusters.

 MangoMadness wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As said earlier in the thread, you don't have to even buy miniatures for BTech. It's a P&P game that works with maps and counters.

Lol, how to make a complete failure of a game in 2018 - Step 1: give it cardboard standees instead of miniatures

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And why would people want anything else? Because people might want to play with different 'Mechs. There are over 3000 variants/'Mech designs. As good as 26 'Mechs are, they represent a fraction of what the game offers. And that's before we even get into aircraft, tanks, infantry, and so on.

You obviously dont know how retail works because there is 0% chance a store will stock anywhere near 3000 designs.

They have to market Btech not only to customers but to retailers, to do so you need a 'core set' and 'expansion packs' (lance packs) that a retailer can progressively sell and make money from. Ignore the retailers and Btech will continue to be a game noone plays and very few people even buy.

How about the war store?
Or....Order them from Ironwind metals.
Back when it was Ral Partha the big game stores would have a section of blister packs hundreds strong. For me, walking through the war store was like being in heaven, only on inventory day...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MangoMadness wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
[And, as others have said, 24 'mechs (26 actually) in a single box is so much to work with when it comes to BTech. Add the Lance Packs to that and you could conceivably never buy another miniature.

Was that was the problem with the last 2 box sets? For many they were a 'game in a box' instead of a starter set. When a sensible time game is only 4v4 giving a player 26 options means they generally dont have to buy anything else. Especially when the box set came with 2 quick reference cards etc.

Maybe a starter set should be 4-6 models and aimed at a starter game of 2v2 at a lower price point to encourage new players to then expand into lance packs. Sort of like X-Wing model but no single mech packs.

From a retailer point of view (im not a retailer) the old btech box sets are just a one off sale, how does a store justify promoting/stocking a game when there is very little scope for ongoing sales past the 'starter box'?

Do you you play 40k? Because you could buy the codex, the rules, and a army box and never buy anything again.

 MangoMadness wrote:
You obviously dont know how retail works because there is 0% chance a store will stock anywhere near 3000 designs.

And you obviously don't know anything about this game, because there aren't 3000 miniatures.

the Mini scene of battletech is a tiny scene, there's a reason why their minis are made by a third party lisencer. Battletech has always been marketed almost more like an RPG rather then a mini game. the codex suplements with their "1 page of rules and a buncha pages of useless fluff" people complained about in 6th edition 40k? thats the NORM in battletech.

 MangoMadness wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As said earlier in the thread, you don't have to even buy miniatures for BTech. It's a P&P game that works with maps and counters.

Lol, how to make a complete failure of a game in 2018 - Step 1: give it cardboard standees instead of miniatures

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And why would people want anything else? Because people might want to play with different 'Mechs. There are over 3000 variants/'Mech designs. As good as 26 'Mechs are, they represent a fraction of what the game offers. And that's before we even get into aircraft, tanks, infantry, and so on.

You obviously dont know how retail works because there is 0% chance a store will stock anywhere near 3000 designs.

They have to market Btech not only to customers but to retailers, to do so you need a 'core set' and 'expansion packs' (lance packs) that a retailer can progressively sell and make money from. Ignore the retailers and Btech will continue to be a game noone plays and very few people even buy.

You've got to follow the players, of course. When it kicked off in our shop majorly last time, it started with the big boxes. Then the store started stocking the technical readouts, and offering to order mechs. I don't think they ever bothered with the record sheet books, but the TRO's sold very quickly.

There was a bunch of horse trading at first, as people worked to make their Kurita, Capellan, or Steiner lance from the boxed set, then they grabbed a few metal designs of each to make their force cooler. That naturally led to paint and brush sells, as few people have enough purple on hand to make FWL work. Then someone discovered clans, and the store became an arms dealer as the tech level accelerated. Admittedly, I don't have their profit figures or anything like that, but it was a thriving community which seemed to be putting new mechs on the table each week, even without an escalation league. If a canny store could lead or host a campaign it should be profitable with very little shelf space.

The thing for me is that there's all this fluff in the books, but it doesn't push it front and centre. For all the talk about different factions preferring certain 'Mechs, that info was left lurking in sourcebooks somewhere. If the starter box had had a sheet saying "these four 'mechs are mostly used by this faction, and those others are used by that faction", and had some decent colour pictures of them in the appropriate colours, then I'd have got that. As it was, I just used whatever 'Mechs I liked, and it was all a bit abstract.

The "problem" with the 2009 starter seems to be that it had the same quality of components as the 1992 box. On the other hand, look at how the quality of the components improved between 2nd and 5th edition 40k. And while MangoMadness might not know anything about Battletech, he's got a point - the market for hex-and-counter wargames isn't what it was. Other boardgames with similar gameplay either have better or more miniatures (Zombicide, Mantic's games) or much better graphic design (look at the boards for Heroes of Normandie compared to the rather plain Battletech mapsheets).

The only talk I see about Battletech is from people who already play it - and selling them a starter set is a waste of time by definition. Especially since it's not like 40k where the rules change significantly across editions.

Also, while you say it's a hex-and-counter wargame, it doesn't actually give you many counters. OK, you get a couple of dozen standees for the 'Mehs in the starter set, but after that, you do kinda have to buy miniatures, because there's no other official way to represent units on the maps!

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The only talk I see about Battletech is from people who already play it - and selling them a starter set is a waste of time by definition.

I own the 4th Edition starter box, the CityTech 1st and 2nd Ed boxes (the 2nd Ed one came with plastic 'Mechs, including Clan 'Mechs), the 2009 one with the terrible quality plastic, the more recent one with the superior plastic minis, and will be getting the new ones as well.

More 'Mechs the merrier.

I started with the 2nd edition City Tech box (my friend had the 3rd edition Battletech box with the Unseen.

What I was getting at was that a starter set is supposed to sit on a shelf and entice new players to pick it up and go "that looks cool. I'll take it" and come back next week or next month and buy more toys and books. I'm not sure Battletech does that; at least not locally to me.

Mind you, this thread has made me want to dig out my old 'Mechs (metal versions of the models in the 3rd edition box set, plus the Reseen equivalents, mostly) and repaint them in a less boring colour scheme - or two, so I've got two sides. It also makes me miss the two Clan Marauder IICs I used to have (because that was the closest to the MAD-3R Marauder I could find in my not-so-F LGS). I never did have the proper rules for them.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The "problem" with the 2009 starter seems to be that it had the same quality of components as the 1992 box.

Actually, that is patently untrue. The 'mechs themselves were only a bit better than the old ones, yes, but the maps' quality was leaps and bound higher. Cereal box-like cardboard in the old, boardgame-quality cardboard in the new, it's not even funny.

Sorry, I was only meaning the plastic models; I was unclear.

Are the map sheets still paper, though? Any comparable boardgame now will have a heavy fold-out board for the playing surface.

The maps have had various incarnations over the past decade or so. I have numerous versions of the BattleTech map, some in the old style, some in a glossy and gakky style, and even one in a folding card-stock style, which is really nice.

The "MapPacks" of which there were... I want to say 3 (?)... were very nice, but these new ones are apparently paper. That's ok as long as they are new maps.

BTech needs new maps.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Sorry, I was only meaning the plastic models; I was unclear.

Are the map sheets still paper, though? Any comparable boardgame now will have a heavy fold-out board for the playing surface.

Since the 2009 starter onwards they've all been heavy boardgame cardstock. Obviously, no idea about the new boxes, but hopefully they'll be too.

 Albertorius wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Sorry, I was only meaning the plastic models; I was unclear.

Are the map sheets still paper, though? Any comparable boardgame now will have a heavy fold-out board for the playing surface.

Since the 2009 starter onwards they've all been heavy boardgame cardstock. Obviously, no idea about the new boxes, but hopefully they'll be too.

I think the new one is paper rather than card, not sure were I've read it though.

I had two or three of the map packs available for 3rd and 4th editions. Some interesting geography, but terrible art, and every single sheet had a different colour scheme, so using them together looked awful.

Nultaar wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Sorry, I was only meaning the plastic models; I was unclear.

Are the map sheets still paper, though? Any comparable boardgame now will have a heavy fold-out board for the playing surface.

Since the 2009 starter onwards they've all been heavy boardgame cardstock. Obviously, no idea about the new boxes, but hopefully they'll be too.

I think the new one is paper rather than card, not sure were I've read it though.

...well, that would be a damn shame.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I'd much rather have 8 good looking miniatures than 24 bad looking ones. Hell, I'd much rather have even a single good looking miniature. I don't want bad looking miniatures at all. At that point I might as well use coins or paper cutouts.

I don't think the 24 'Mechs in the last boxed set were bad looking. It was the cheap manufacturing techniques for the 24 'Mechs in the box before that that made them such a dud.

Talking about the 2009 box, not the 2014 box.

If you ever want to see how bad QC and PR can haunt you for a decade, just look in this thread. Jesus


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MangoMadness wrote:
Maybe a starter set should be 4-6 models

so like the two new Battletech starter sets that this thread is about


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MangoMadness wrote:
Lol, how to make a complete failure of a game in 2018 - Step 1: give it cardboard standees instead of miniatures

Literally the most popular games in the world are paper and card and wood blocks unless your store doesn't stock Pandemic or Twilight Struggle or Settlers or Carcassone or Dead of Winter or Agricola or 7 Wonders and I guess you don't stock any wargames at all from GMT or MMP

Confirmed from CGL that the maps in the new set are the same type as the Map Packs, in order to be compatible. (so thick paper or whatever)

 judgedoug wrote:
Confirmed from CGL that the maps in the new set are the same type as the Map Packs, in order to be compatible. (so thick paper or whatever)

The latest map packs were heavy boardgame cardstock, just like the ones in the box.

Hey guys, kind of a weird question. I don't know that much about the lore.

I am building some battlemech models and and starting to think about iconography and buying some decals from Fighting Piranha. I am going to go with the mechs that I love, which means some are going to be IS and some are going to be clan. The specific chassis I am thinking of are Raven, Catapult, Mad Dog (Vulture), Stalker, Timber Wolf (Mad Cat), and Uziel. Stuff like that.

Are there situations where these mechs could potentially be in the same lance? I don't know if the IS would ever use clan mechs, or vice versa - would a Raven ever wear a Wolf decal, or a Uziel wear Liao? Presumably mercenaries, if nothing else, would use whatever they can get?

Thanks!

It kind of depends on where on the timeline you are: the farther you go since the clans invasion of the IS, the more feasible it would be. Generally it would be easier to see IS units with some clan mechs than the other way around, but it's not completely unheard of.

I'd say, if you like it go for it.

It's entirely feasible to have mixed IS/Clan units, particularly for Inner Sphere units later on in the Clan War (especially after Operation Bulldog and the capture of the Smoke Jaguar home world of Huntress)

Prince Victor Davion is piloting a Daishi (Dire Wolf) from quite early in the Clan Invasion, given to him by Jaime Wolf following the war council/training on Outreach. Wolf's Dragoons are clearly manufacturing OmniMechs by this time and presumably will have provided more examples to the other IS leaders. A deal is also reached on Outreach for the Free Worlds League to manufacture new battlemechs to support the defense although I don't think that what types those are is ever specified, but some of those mechs could well be Clan designs (I do recall the protaganists of one book disparaging knock off IS versions of Clan Mechs).

Several mercenary units are also reported as having various salvaged Clan Mechs, e.g. Comacho's Caballeros has at least one Mad Cat (Timber Wolf) and the Black Thorns captured several Clan Omnis from on Borghese.

The Clans may field some IS designs in certain formations. Second line and garrison units are often equipped with lesser mechs, usually the updated IIC versions of Classic Star League designs, but could potentially be equipped with newer IS designs as well. Solahma (pirate hunting) units of old and disgraced warriors are probably equipped with anything they can get hold of (if anything) so it would be entirely plausible for such formations to have salvaged IS designs. I think it would be extremely unlikely for a front line unit to have any IS mechs (Phelan Wards Wolfhound IIC being the only exception I can think of).

So I'd suggest going ahead and making the mixed units however you fancy.

Thanks guys!

I am really interested in this release. The models look good and the cardboard mechs remind of the fond days of Gurps RPG. I have also a question to the Battletech veterans:
Would it be feasible or an utter waste of time to port some rules from Battletech over to IKR? The latter is not much of a game on it´s own imo. I know that there is no hex grid in IKR and the scale is different.