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Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Belisarius Cawl could be a saint. For one his rapid rise in the Mechanicum and also for his dangerous beliefs. WolfsBane shows that he thinks that the human from and the Astartes are superior to upgraded mechanicum humans, thinking that upgrading is a weakness and doesn't really achieve anything at the end of the day and they are impractical because they will always have to upgrade, whereas the human form doesn't is complete and can reproduce. These opinions are unthinkable for someone in the mechanicum, does he have these thoughts because he is being guided by the Emps...
   
Made in ca
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Kapuskasing, ON

Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
   
Made in us
Bounding Assault Marine



Leominster

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.


Agreed.

Cawl and his weird Mary Sue Marines were the worst thing for 40k IMO.

"I was never a Son of Horus. I was and remain a Luna Wolf. A proud son of Cthonia, a loyal servant of the Emperor."

Recasts are like Fight Cub. No one talks about it, but more people do it then you realize.



Armies.
Luna Wolves 4,000 Points
Thousand Sons 4,000 Points. 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 ProwlerPC wrote:
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.


I mean 'saint' as in the Emperor using them to enact his will, not the Ecclesiarchies definition and you can still be a mary sue and be a saint, saints are mary sue by definition lol

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/22 18:57:08


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 ProwlerPC wrote:
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.

Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ProwlerPC wrote:
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.

Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue

I know. People said my homebrew Marine is a Mary Sue because he magically appeared from nowhere with an army and nobody cared about it. It makes total sense too. He came from the Warp.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ProwlerPC wrote:
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.

Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue



dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ProwlerPC wrote:
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.

Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue


Yeah I don't think he's a mary sue, him suddenly creating the Primaris is just lazy writing. But there are mary sue characters and armies, the grey knights for instance and I collect them so, the ultramarines are definitely mary sue. I wouldn't say Girlyman is mary sue as he's a primarch, they all are but him being the first back and leading the imperium is. It would have been so much cooler for another primarch came back, one no so destined to lead like Girlyman or Dorn. It should have been the Khan or Russ, then you'd have a better dynamic with them struggling to lead the Imperium.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





pm713 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ProwlerPC wrote:
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.

Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue

I know. People said my homebrew Marine is a Mary Sue because he magically appeared from nowhere with an army and nobody cared about it. It makes total sense too. He came from the Warp.


thats not a homebrew Marine.. that's Kaldor Dragio


answering the original question, such a line of thought may be unthinkable in the adeptus mechancius (maybe less then you think though, the existance of Magos Biologists even in M 41 suggests some admech individuals do take a closer eye towards biological sciences) Cawl is certainly a radical but when one looks at the enviroment at the time it makes sense some would have such thoughts. The Omnisah has appered and seems to just be an unaugmented man, his servants of choice? biologically enhanced individuals. realisticly it makes sense at least a small minority of matian tech adepts are thinking "hey wait, is THIS the pinnical of human self improvement? have we perhaps been ignoring a valid tech branch?"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Formosa wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ProwlerPC wrote:
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.

Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue



dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.

In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ProwlerPC wrote:
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.

Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue



dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.

In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue


and remember just because he came from no where does not mean he's a mary sue eaither. plenty of damn good stories have a guy come in later to the story only for us to learn of their importance. in TESB Ypda was just a strange old hermit who knew the ways of the jedi, it was only when the prequals came out he was "retconned" to "ohh by the way he was the grandmaster of the order!"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ProwlerPC wrote:
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.

Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue



dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.

In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue



1: better than the Big E at making space marines
2: better than the mechanicum at making gear
3: gets to create new tech without consequences
4: allowed to use xeno tech
5: allowed to make "possible" A.I of himself
6: sat around for 10k years and no one noticed him
7: "cured" all of the problems with various gene seeds
8: better apothecary than Fabulous Bill

blimey the list goes on, but in spite of all this, he still isnt the worst offender, and to throw it back at you, just because you like a character, doesnt mean you cant see its faults... something we havent seen from cawl... yet.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Formosa wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ProwlerPC wrote:
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.

Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue



dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.

In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue



1: better than the Big E at making space marines
2: better than the mechanicum at making gear
3: gets to create new tech without consequences
4: allowed to use xeno tech
5: allowed to make "possible" A.I of himself
6: sat around for 10k years and no one noticed him
7: "cured" all of the problems with various gene seeds
8: better apothecary than Fabulous Bill

blimey the list goes on, but in spite of all this, he still isnt the worst offender, and to throw it back at you, just because you like a character, doesnt mean you cant see its faults... something we havent seen from cawl... yet.

1. The Emperor wasn't perfect so it isn't out of possibility to improve on it. Fabius Bile has been doing the same thing but nobody cares enough to call him a Mary Sue.
2. He IS kinda the big boss. The Director Of Nursing in my building is a more skilled nurse than the other nurses. Sometimes you're the boss for a reason.
3. That's his position of power and he has little friends to show it. Radical Inquisitors can be thought of in the same way.
4. See Point #3 basically.
5. The implication he's gone so far down the rabbit hole is saying he's a Mary Sue? I thought flaws were supposed to be good!
6. Newly introduced characters will always have that issue. Look at Trazyn. You don't HATE Trazyn do you?
7. Your problem here is the same as Point #1.
8. I don't think you know what an Apothecary does to make that statement.

The flaws are there. You just refuse to accept them due to hating Primaris it looks like. He isn't a Mary Sue. Get over it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 Formosa wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ProwlerPC wrote:
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.

Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue



dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.

In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue



1: better than the Big E at making space marines
2: better than the mechanicum at making gear
3: gets to create new tech without consequences
4: allowed to use xeno tech
5: allowed to make "possible" A.I of himself
6: sat around for 10k years and no one noticed him
7: "cured" all of the problems with various gene seeds
8: better apothecary than Fabulous Bill

blimey the list goes on, but in spite of all this, he still isnt the worst offender, and to throw it back at you, just because you like a character, doesnt mean you cant see its faults... something we havent seen from cawl... yet.



He is not better at the Emperor at making marines. When Corax worked on the Primarch project they realised that they could make better marines. The Emperor made marines for the great crusade and only for that, he made them tailored for a reason, to take the galaxy, he knew how to make better marines, he just made what he needed to make. Its all in Deliverence lost. He was never allowed to make A.I. he just did it anyways same with the new tech and Girlyman has allowed him to make new tech now. Plus the Emperor made the Primarchs, something Cawl can't do.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/05/22 21:18:05


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth




Are primaris better than standard marines, yes, did cawl make them, yes.

Coraxs project having anything to do with Cawls project is not supported by any fluff yet, so I dont see how that has any bearing at all, and yes marines were made for a reason, but as soon as it became apparent that things were not going to plan with them, why didnt he fire out some primaris to deal with the heresy? he had 10 years, just to be clear, deliverance lost has ZERO bearing on the primaris project, those marines were NOT primaris marines and something completely different (lacking the organs for starters).

" He was never allowed to make A.I. he just did it anyways."

with no repercussions.... how is that NOT mary sue, its literally breaking one of the biggest rules of the mechanicus ???

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/22 21:20:38


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You do know what a Mary Sue is, right?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You do know what a Mary Sue is, right?



A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 Formosa wrote:



Are primaris better than standard marines, yes, did cawl make them, yes.

Coraxs project having anything to do with Cawls project is not supported by any fluff yet, so I dont see how that has any bearing at all, and yes marines were made for a reason, but as soon as it became apparent that things were not going to plan with them, why didnt he fire out some primaris to deal with the heresy? he had 10 years, just to be clear, deliverance lost has ZERO bearing on the primaris project, those marines were NOT primaris marines and something completely different (lacking the organs for starters).

" He was never allowed to make A.I. he just did it anyways."

with no repercussions.... how is that NOT mary sue, its literally breaking one of the biggest rules of the mechanicus ???




You need to read Deliverence lost, it explicitly says that the Emperor 'could' have made 'better' marines. Cawl did make better marines, but he didn't do what the Emperor couldn't, which is what you Implied, you can't get away with semantics. Deliverence lost has 'everything' to do with the Primarch project, you should read it before debate the book, most of the book was about it.

Who says anyone found out that he made an A.I. why do you think there is so much security around it, that only Girlyman could use it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/22 21:54:04


 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. The Emperor wasn't perfect so it isn't out of possibility to improve on it. Fabius Bile has been doing the same thing but nobody cares enough to call him a Mary Sue.

Fabious Bile is very different from Cawl. Fabious Bile is a Chaos character who can therefore freely experiment without care for anything, and especially without any moral concern. His creations are experiments that have flaws, detected or not, that won't stop them from being used on the battlefield, but that do prevent them from replacing normal marines.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Formosa wrote:



Are primaris better than standard marines, yes, did cawl make them, yes.

Coraxs project having anything to do with Cawls project is not supported by any fluff yet, so I dont see how that has any bearing at all, and yes marines were made for a reason, but as soon as it became apparent that things were not going to plan with them, why didnt he fire out some primaris to deal with the heresy? he had 10 years, just to be clear, deliverance lost has ZERO bearing on the primaris project, those marines were NOT primaris marines and something completely different (lacking the organs for starters).

" He was never allowed to make A.I. he just did it anyways."

with no repercussions.... how is that NOT mary sue, its literally breaking one of the biggest rules of the mechanicus ???




You need to read Deliverence lost, it explicitly says that the Emperor 'could' have made 'better' marines. Cawl did make better marines, but he didn't do what the Emperor couldn't, which is what you Implied, you can't get away with semantics. Deliverence lost has 'everything' to do with the Primarch project, you should read it before debate the book, most of the book was about it.

Who says anyone found out that he made an A.I. why do you think there is so much security around it, that only Girlyman could use it.


Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics

"you should read it before debate the book,"

This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.

Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator








"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics

"you should read it before debate the book,"

This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.

Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."


It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/22 22:19:27


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Formosa wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You do know what a Mary Sue is, right?



A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.

1. He isn't perfect and has enemies.
2. He is for sure not an author-insert.
3. Being alive for 1000s of years kinda adds to the experience of what you can do.

So there ya go. By your own definition, he isn't a Mary Sue. You just don't like him and want to label him as such.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics

"you should read it before debate the book,"

This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.

Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."


It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol



Quote the link between the two or admit its your personal head canon, there is nothing more to be said on the subject as far as im concerned, sorry but I do not trust your word on it, having read the book I already know there is no such link, so I am asking you to prove it, until you do, I will not discuss this further with you.
   
Made in es
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

Remember, even if you like a mary sue character, he is still a mary sue

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. The Emperor wasn't perfect so it isn't out of possibility to improve on it. Fabius Bile has been doing the same thing but nobody cares enough to call him a Mary Sue.

Fabious Bile is very different from Cawl. Fabious Bile is a Chaos character who can therefore freely experiment without care for anything, and especially without any moral concern. His creations are experiments that have flaws, detected or not, that won't stop them from being used on the battlefield, but that do prevent them from replacing normal marines.

But Bile has less resources to go with too. Otherwise it would've been done already. He DID clone Horus already after all.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 Formosa wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics

"you should read it before debate the book,"

This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.

Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."


It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol



Quote the link between the two or admit its your personal head canon, there is nothing more to be said on the subject as far as im concerned, sorry but I do not trust your word on it, having read the book I already know there is no such link, so I am asking you to prove it, until you do, I will not discuss this further with you.


You were the one lying in the past, saying that the Lion tried to teach Russ a lesson in the fight when he didn't. You are lying here, editing your comments after I have shown that you haven't read the book or that you know what you are talking about. Your a pathetic liar. you make gak up to win arguments, you've done it here resorting to semantics trying to say you meant something else. I'll post the quotes but everyone that read this thread and has read Deliverence lost will tell you before that anyways. How do you think they made enhanced marines... The emperor used the Primarch project to make the marines, what did Corax use... the Primarch project obviously.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/22 22:39:56


 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
But Bile has less resources to go with too. Otherwise it would've been done already. He DID clone Horus already after all.

I'm not sure he would have done something akin to primaris marines, aka marines but superior in every way. Seems more likely he would have mode something like "marines but better at fighting yet have dangerous mental problems" or "marines but better at fighting yet dies/mutate very fast" or anything with a similar flaw that isn't actually a flaw from his/Chaos point of view.
Well that's my opinion anyway and I admit it's not based specifically on official fluff or anything. Just seems more thematically appropriate to me .

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 Formosa wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics

"you should read it before debate the book,"

This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.

Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."


It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol



Quote the link between the two or admit its your personal head canon, there is nothing more to be said on the subject as far as im concerned, sorry but I do not trust your word on it, having read the book I already know there is no such link, so I am asking you to prove it, until you do, I will not discuss this further with you.



Found a pdf of the book here is one quote do you want me to continue?

"‘I concur,’ the Master of Mankind said eventually. ‘It is in your nature to cry havoc and wreak the
same upon your foes. Yet there is no need for sacrifice. I am reluctant, but you have my trust, Corvus.
I will grant you a gift, a very precious gift.’
Once more the Emperor reached out his hand and laid it upon Corax’s head.
For an eternity Corax was overwhelmed by the mind of the Emperor. An existence that had spanned
more than thirty millennia tried to crowd into the primarch’s thoughts, sending pain searing through
him.
In a moment the pain had ceased, the imprint upon his memories a shard of what had come before,
the tiniest fraction of the Emperor’s being. Still reeling from the psychic onslaught, Corax wondered
if this was how the astrotelepaths felt during the Soul Binding, their minds conjoined with the psychic
might of the Emperor.
Flashes of new memories coursed through his thoughts, blocking out all other sensation, a
succession of images burnt into his psyche. The primarch’s body quaked with the sensation, rebelling
against the patterns and images thrust into his brain.
He could smell the tang of cleansing fluids, and hear the buzz of machines and the hiss of
respiration devices. Corax glimpsed metal cylinders with glass viewplates, arranged in a circle at the
heart of a clinically sterile chamber, a maze of wires and pumps and tubes splaying from each steel
sarcophagus.
The primarch did not just see the scene, he was part of it, speaking to a white-coated technician in
a language he did not understand. There were other orderlies, with cloth face masks and tight hoods
drawn over their heads, their hands gloved in white.
Corax walked amongst the incubators, noting at a glance the digital displays plugged into each,
satisfied with the life signs beeping and chiming from each device. He felt enormous satisfaction.
There was still much to do. The physical bodies were being nourished, their superhuman forms
each developing over the genetic matrix inlaid inside each chamber. They were only empty shells
though, and the greatest part of the project was yet to come. Their nascent brains were ripe for the
template integration.
Even as he had these thoughts, Corax did not understand them. More arcane and technical phrases
came to him, their meaning lost in the translation to his mind. Yet for all their complexity, the
primarch felt on the verge of recognition.
Like his brothers, Corax’s intellect was as enhanced as his body and his brain was a vast
repository of knowledge, both military and technical. There was something new in there as well,
placed at the same time as the memories. In his mind’s eye he saw genetic splicing and hybridisation
calculations, and understood now that the Mendelian eukaryotic genesis formula was the first ever
successfully cloned human gene-code.
He understood the mechanics behind his own creation and marvelled at the ingenuity of the mind
that had conceived of them. There were areas that were left blank though, intentionally he assumed.
Details of the parts of the Emperor’s own genetic strand that were employed in the creation of the
primarchs. Obviously the Emperor did not trust Corax that much.
There were other memories too: the dismantling of the laboratory after the strange warp phenomena
that had swept away the incubators and scattered them across the galaxy. Corax saw it being
reassembled in another place, far from prying eyes.
He knew where that place was.
Corax realised his eyes were closed and opened them. The Emperor was watching him, waiting
patiently for his son to explore the gift he had given him.
‘You have given me the secrets of the primarch project?’said Corax, his voice a whisper of
amazement."
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics

"you should read it before debate the book,"

This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.

Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."


It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol



Quote the link between the two or admit its your personal head canon, there is nothing more to be said on the subject as far as im concerned, sorry but I do not trust your word on it, having read the book I already know there is no such link, so I am asking you to prove it, until you do, I will not discuss this further with you.



Found a pdf of the book here is one quote do you want me to continue?

"‘I concur,’ the Master of Mankind said eventually. ‘It is in your nature to cry havoc and wreak the
same upon your foes. Yet there is no need for sacrifice. I am reluctant, but you have my trust, Corvus.
I will grant you a gift, a very precious gift.’
Once more the Emperor reached out his hand and laid it upon Corax’s head.
For an eternity Corax was overwhelmed by the mind of the Emperor. An existence that had spanned
more than thirty millennia tried to crowd into the primarch’s thoughts, sending pain searing through
him.
In a moment the pain had ceased, the imprint upon his memories a shard of what had come before,
the tiniest fraction of the Emperor’s being. Still reeling from the psychic onslaught, Corax wondered
if this was how the astrotelepaths felt during the Soul Binding, their minds conjoined with the psychic
might of the Emperor.
Flashes of new memories coursed through his thoughts, blocking out all other sensation, a
succession of images burnt into his psyche. The primarch’s body quaked with the sensation, rebelling
against the patterns and images thrust into his brain.
He could smell the tang of cleansing fluids, and hear the buzz of machines and the hiss of
respiration devices. Corax glimpsed metal cylinders with glass viewplates, arranged in a circle at the
heart of a clinically sterile chamber, a maze of wires and pumps and tubes splaying from each steel
sarcophagus.
The primarch did not just see the scene, he was part of it, speaking to a white-coated technician in
a language he did not understand. There were other orderlies, with cloth face masks and tight hoods
drawn over their heads, their hands gloved in white.
Corax walked amongst the incubators, noting at a glance the digital displays plugged into each,
satisfied with the life signs beeping and chiming from each device. He felt enormous satisfaction.
There was still much to do. The physical bodies were being nourished, their superhuman forms
each developing over the genetic matrix inlaid inside each chamber. They were only empty shells
though, and the greatest part of the project was yet to come. Their nascent brains were ripe for the
template integration.
Even as he had these thoughts, Corax did not understand them. More arcane and technical phrases
came to him, their meaning lost in the translation to his mind. Yet for all their complexity, the
primarch felt on the verge of recognition.
Like his brothers, Corax’s intellect was as enhanced as his body and his brain was a vast
repository of knowledge, both military and technical. There was something new in there as well,
placed at the same time as the memories. In his mind’s eye he saw genetic splicing and hybridisation
calculations, and understood now that the Mendelian eukaryotic genesis formula was the first ever
successfully cloned human gene-code.
He understood the mechanics behind his own creation and marvelled at the ingenuity of the mind
that had conceived of them. There were areas that were left blank though, intentionally he assumed.
Details of the parts of the Emperor’s own genetic strand that were employed in the creation of the
primarchs. Obviously the Emperor did not trust Corax that much.
There were other memories too: the dismantling of the laboratory after the strange warp phenomena
that had swept away the incubators and scattered them across the galaxy. Corax saw it being
reassembled in another place, far from prying eyes.
He knew where that place was.
Corax realised his eyes were closed and opened them. The Emperor was watching him, waiting
patiently for his son to explore the gift he had given him.
‘You have given me the secrets of the primarch project?’said Corax, his voice a whisper of
amazement."



Hahahhahahaha, nowhere in there does it show a link, see your making things up again
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 Formosa wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics

"you should read it before debate the book,"

This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.

Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."


It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol



Quote the link between the two or admit its your personal head canon, there is nothing more to be said on the subject as far as im concerned, sorry but I do not trust your word on it, having read the book I already know there is no such link, so I am asking you to prove it, until you do, I will not discuss this further with you.



Found a pdf of the book here is one quote do you want me to continue?

"‘I concur,’ the Master of Mankind said eventually. ‘It is in your nature to cry havoc and wreak the
same upon your foes. Yet there is no need for sacrifice. I am reluctant, but you have my trust, Corvus.
I will grant you a gift, a very precious gift.’
Once more the Emperor reached out his hand and laid it upon Corax’s head.
For an eternity Corax was overwhelmed by the mind of the Emperor. An existence that had spanned
more than thirty millennia tried to crowd into the primarch’s thoughts, sending pain searing through
him.
In a moment the pain had ceased, the imprint upon his memories a shard of what had come before,
the tiniest fraction of the Emperor’s being. Still reeling from the psychic onslaught, Corax wondered
if this was how the astrotelepaths felt during the Soul Binding, their minds conjoined with the psychic
might of the Emperor.
Flashes of new memories coursed through his thoughts, blocking out all other sensation, a
succession of images burnt into his psyche. The primarch’s body quaked with the sensation, rebelling
against the patterns and images thrust into his brain.
He could smell the tang of cleansing fluids, and hear the buzz of machines and the hiss of
respiration devices. Corax glimpsed metal cylinders with glass viewplates, arranged in a circle at the
heart of a clinically sterile chamber, a maze of wires and pumps and tubes splaying from each steel
sarcophagus.
The primarch did not just see the scene, he was part of it, speaking to a white-coated technician in
a language he did not understand. There were other orderlies, with cloth face masks and tight hoods
drawn over their heads, their hands gloved in white.
Corax walked amongst the incubators, noting at a glance the digital displays plugged into each,
satisfied with the life signs beeping and chiming from each device. He felt enormous satisfaction.
There was still much to do. The physical bodies were being nourished, their superhuman forms
each developing over the genetic matrix inlaid inside each chamber. They were only empty shells
though, and the greatest part of the project was yet to come. Their nascent brains were ripe for the
template integration.
Even as he had these thoughts, Corax did not understand them. More arcane and technical phrases
came to him, their meaning lost in the translation to his mind. Yet for all their complexity, the
primarch felt on the verge of recognition.
Like his brothers, Corax’s intellect was as enhanced as his body and his brain was a vast
repository of knowledge, both military and technical. There was something new in there as well,
placed at the same time as the memories. In his mind’s eye he saw genetic splicing and hybridisation
calculations, and understood now that the Mendelian eukaryotic genesis formula was the first ever
successfully cloned human gene-code.
He understood the mechanics behind his own creation and marvelled at the ingenuity of the mind
that had conceived of them. There were areas that were left blank though, intentionally he assumed.
Details of the parts of the Emperor’s own genetic strand that were employed in the creation of the
primarchs. Obviously the Emperor did not trust Corax that much.
There were other memories too: the dismantling of the laboratory after the strange warp phenomena
that had swept away the incubators and scattered them across the galaxy. Corax saw it being
reassembled in another place, far from prying eyes.
He knew where that place was.
Corax realised his eyes were closed and opened them. The Emperor was watching him, waiting
patiently for his son to explore the gift he had given him.
‘You have given me the secrets of the primarch project?’said Corax, his voice a whisper of
amazement."



Hahahhahahaha, nowhere in there does it show a link, see your making things up again


Yes it does hang on I'll qoute some more then

‘The Emperor extracted only a few elements of the original data to create the
Legiones Astartes strain, and about a dozen more in the Legio Custodes data we retrieved from the
Terran vault. To isolate the rapid maturation and cell cloning abilities you desire, and graft them onto
our own gene-seed, we have to retroactively engineer the Raven Guard gene-seed with the
appropriate sequence. There are millions of sequences that might be applied, even from a single
primarch strand, and there are twenty unique primarch codes to choose from.’

‘The primarch genetic coding is vastly more complex than standard Raven Guard gene-seed,’the
Apothecary explained. ‘The Emperor extracted only a few elements of the original data to create the
Legiones Astartes strain, and about a dozen more in the Legio Custodes data we retrieved from the
Terran vault. To isolate the rapid maturation and cell cloning abilities you desire, and graft them onto
our own gene-seed, we have to retroactively engineer the Raven Guard gene-seed with the
appropriate sequence. There are millions of sequences that might be applied, even from a single
primarch strand, and there are twenty unique primarch codes to choose from.’
‘Take this one, sample four, as an indicator,’said the genetor majoris. ‘We have managed to
identify at least six unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability,
above and beyond that found in the others. In the same sample, there is a dearth of certain enhanced
genes that, in our estimation, boost the cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of
nociceptors and proprioceptory function. The deficiency seems to be deliberate. In subject six there is
a whole suite of genetic encoding derived from a non-human source, possibly canine. In subject
twenty, a whole suite of growth boosting augmentations is absent. In all, we have catalogued seven
hundred and eighty-three variations between the samples. This leaves the common, core material, the
primarch essence for want of a better term, exceptionally small compared to what I expected.’
‘I see,’said Corax. He knew enough about genetic manipulation to understand the problem they
were facing, but even his extensive biological knowledge was insufficient to propose a solution. He
stared at the screen for some time, letting the revolving images of different cell helices float into his
consciousness. He studied the data tables, absorbing the information without consciously reading it,
hoping it would trigger some insight from the Emperor.
All he could remember was sadness.
It was a struggle to keep motivated, to repeat the research that had taken so many centuries to
perfect. All had been swept away by… By what, Corax could not quite remember. The Emperor’s
memories were blank on the matter. The primarch concentrated on what had happened after the period
of ignorance.
There was hope in his heart. His ambition had been misplaced. Rather than create twenty
superhuman warriors, he could create thousands, hundreds of thousands of next-generation soldiers.
Each would have a fraction of the power of the primarchs, it was true, but their numbers would more
than make up for the difference. Corax held an image for a moment, a picture of rank after rank of
armoured warriors, fists and banners raised in salute. He would create an army. Something more than
an army: a Legion.
Intellect fired by his imagination, he set to work with this new goal in mind. There was no need to
create this Legion from a single zygotic embryo. Humanity numbered in its billions, just on Terra
alone. Through Corax’s thoughts, the Emperor discarded swathes of the primarch genetic data,
deemed redundant in light of his new plans. He focused on amending all of his findings from the
primarch project, filtering out those abilities and traits that could only be gene-bred from inception,
concentrating on transferable, implantable genetic strands.
The primarch latched onto those memories, delving deeper. As he did so, Corax edged Sixx aside
and pulled a touch-screen interface closer. Hesitantly at first, he began to tap the screen, navigating
his way through the mass of coded information. His fingers picked up speed as the memories came
faster and faster. Fingertips dancing over the screen, Corax delved into the intricacies of the primarch
genes, separating out those sequences and proteins discarded by the Emperor, following in his
creator’s remembered footsteps. The shifting displays and tables blurred as the primarch continued,
isolating gene-fragments and cell duplication segments, tossing some aside, moving others into a
separate partition.
For five minutes he worked at furious pace, linking unconscious recall to conscious action.
Orlandriaz had moved up beside him at some point and was staring at the flow of information
spreading across the screens, nodding ferociously while he muttered to himself.
Corax stopped, taking a deep breath as he straightened.
‘Masterful,’ whispered Orlandriaz.
‘Perhaps if you could spare us five more minutes, lord, we could solve the whole problem,’said
Sixx, grinning broadly.
‘If only it were that simple,’said Corax. He had not worked out anything, simply remembered it.
The Emperor had never attempted to create what Corax sought, and so there was no base of
knowledge for him to recall. ‘That still leaves you with seventy-two different gene-strands to
analyse.’
‘A moment, please,’said Orlandriaz, laying his hand on Corax’s arm as the primarch turned away.
Corax glanced down in annoyance at the magos’s clutching fingers, noticing that the tech-priest’s
fingernails looked to be made of a dull bronze. Realising his error, Nexin took his hand away and
nodded his head in apology.
‘Forgive me, Lord Corax,’said the magos. ‘Whilst taking a break from our analystical studies, the
Chief Apothecary and I engaged in a debate that was without resolution. I seek your opinion on the
matter.’
‘What debate?’ asked Corax, darting a look at Sixx, who was frowning at his companion.
‘It is my belief that your plans could be taken a stage further,’said the magos.
‘It is out of the question,’said Sixx, making a cutting motion with his hand. ‘It is against our every
principle.’
‘What is?’said Corax.
‘It seems that we might actually make our task easier if we were to incept the project from an
initial cellular generation, rather than hybridisation of an existing organism.’
‘Cloning,’snapped Sixx. ‘The magos thinks we should clone new warriors from scratch rather than
modify the gene-seed for implantation. I reminded him that there are many more complications
associated with such a process, not to mention the problems it will create in the future.’
‘Your arguments were irrational,’said Orlandriaz, scowling back at the Chief Apothecary.
‘Emotive.’
‘Every possibility must be explored,’said Corax. He raised a hand to silence a protest from Sixx.
A passing thought of the Emperor had surfaced in his mind, a philosophical point his creator had
concluded when the primarchs had been taken from him.
‘With that said, direct cloning must be considered only as a final option if there is no other
solution. Magos, there is good reason why the Emperor did not directly clone his new Legions from a
single template cell. The resultant legionaries would be identical. Without the random mutation
present in the wider human genetic structure, there is no possibility for variation. The Legiones
Astartes are successful because we are similar, but not identical. Qualities such as leadership,
intellect and aptitude for different disciplines allow us to be flexible and to fulfil many roles.
‘Even the primarchs were not created equal in all measures. The Emperor understood the
importance of variation. Beyond that, there is another consideration. The Legiones Astartes are
humanity’s warriors, separated and superior in many ways, but always raised up from amongst those
they lead and protect. A legionary may be a neo-human, but he was once human. A legionary is the
incarnation of the Emperor’s plan, a perfect symbol and example for mankind to aspire to, not simply
a tool of war. It is humanity that the Emperor will lead in the conquest of the galaxy, not some new
species made to order in a laboratory.’
‘Thank you, lord,’said Sixx, with a sidelong look at Orlandriaz. ‘More eloquent than I could ever
phrase it.’
‘I understand your position and reasoning,’said the magos. ‘I will comply with your direction.’
‘Make it work,’said Corax. ‘That perfect symbol has been tarnished by Horus. I would see it shine
brightly again.

‘Reactions and strength are better than a matured legionary,’said Branne. ‘I’ve never seen anything
like it.’
‘Which is fine for unarmoured, unarmed combat,’ replied Corax. ‘Those advantages will be much
reduced when they have their power armour.’
‘I’ve been thinking about that, lord,’said Branne, eyes fixed on the two warriors sparring. ‘The
new Mark VI suits… They’re far superior to anything else we have, except for a few artificer suits
for officers, and even they’re pretty bashed up. We can’t implant the experience and guile of a veteran
into these men, but the new armour and their advanced systems would go some way to helping with
that.’
‘I was thinking the same,’said the primarch. ‘These are not just recruits, they are the start of
something new for the Legion. I have told Sixx to progress with another one hundred implantations. If
we can successfully scale up, you’ll have a fighting force within fifty days. Commander of Recruits
doesn’t seem to reflect your role properly.’
Branne glanced at his leader.
‘You said this would be a combat force when you gave me the title, lord.’
‘They need a name, Branne,’said Corax. ‘We can’t keep calling them recruits, but it isn’t right that
they simply get absorbed by Agapito’s Talons.’
‘I have a suggestion,’said Branne.
‘Then share it, commander.’
‘We have the Talons, Falcons and Hawks, lord. I think we should be the Raptors.’
‘The Raptors?’ Corax smiled and placed a massive hand on Branne’s shoulder. ‘Yes, that will suit
perfectly. Swift hunters. You are the Commander of the Raptors now. I’ll inform Agapito, Solaro and
Aloni.’
With a grunt and a thud, the legiona


There, see you haven't read it.
   
 
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