Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kharneth wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Now, "normal move" is not a term. It's not bold and it doesn't have a unique definition for Warhammer 40k's rules. "Normal move" is just referring to moving without using Blitz.

Makes no difference given the context of the rules whether the term is bold, in caps or not. A "normal move" action must exist because it is the way we move our models. Making an "Advance" is the "unusual move" action. Both are actions we can take in the movement phase.

Look at it another way - if you elect to Blitz you have (by definition) elected to move. You cannot elect to move and advance, you do one or the other. You literally cannot move then go, I'm going to now advance. You must state you're doing it (advance) before you move. If you say you're advancing with your Solitaire, you cannot then Blitz (because Blitz is a variation of the "normal move"). Once you have elected to Blitz you have forgone your ability to advance.

Has anyone passed this on to GW for clarification? I don't think we're going to solve this on here.

Yes, you can. The ONLY way to Advance is to move. Read your rulebook.

Advancing is a supplement to your movement, not a replacement. I quoted the rules for Advance above or you can look in the rules, which are free online.

Wrong.

You cannot move and advance.

If you could I could move my movement characteristic once, they advance and do exactly the same thing again +D6".

You can EITHER advance or move. I would recommend you read your rules. Advancing and moving are clearly distinct and different things, which further proves that you cannot do both.

E - see this for information;

No. Rules-wise, Advance is not an "extension" to your normal move, but an alternative to your normal move which extends your movement characteristic by D6" in return for some limitations. But it's an entirely different thing from "normal move".

Which is the "RAW"* version I would see against Blitz and Advance.

Normally, you have two options in the movement phase when you select a unit:

1. - Move (this includes moving up to your move characteristic)
2. - Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")

Blitz replaces No. 1 (assuming that is the "normal move", though of course it's not called that in the BRB), thus in a turn the Solitaire blitzes, he has the following options

1. Blitz (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + 2D6)
2. Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

You declare a unit is advancing, yes. You don't select it to 'move' because that is a different thing.

If you are advancing you are not doing the same thing as if you were moving. This is absolutely in the rules.

You have proven the point.

To repeat myself from earlier:


"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance,..."


"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the Solitaire, you can make a Blitz move with it. ... "

Both normal moves and Blitz moves are designated as moves. When you pick a unit to move (not specified as a normal move) you can declare that it will advance.

You would get to add the d6 from Advance to the type of move you are making.

 doctortom wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

You declare a unit is advancing, yes. You don't select it to 'move' because that is a different thing.

If you are advancing you are not doing the same thing as if you were moving. This is absolutely in the rules.

You have proven the point.

To repeat myself from earlier:


"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance,..."


"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the Solitaire, you can make a Blitz move with it. ... "

Both normal moves and Blitz moves are designated as moves. When you pick a unit to move (not specified as a normal move) you can declare that it will advance.

You would get to add the d6 from Advance to the type of move you are making.

It clearly doesn't mean "move" as in "complete a move action" because again, they are different things (advancing and moving). This is easily evidenced. They have different rules associated with them and they act differently.

And to repeat myself from earlier;
No. Rules-wise, Advance is not an "extension" to your normal move, but an alternative to your normal move which extends your movement characteristic by D6" in return for some limitations. But it's an entirely different thing from "normal move".

Which is the "RAW"* version I would see against Blitz and Advance.

Normally, you have two options in the movement phase when you select a unit:

1. - Move (this includes moving up to your move characteristic)
2. - Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")

Blitz replaces No. 1 (assuming that is the "normal move", though of course it's not called that in the BRB), thus in a turn the Solitaire blitzes, he has the following options

1. Blitz (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + 2D6)
2. Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")

You guys are insane.

There is no such thing as a normal move.

"Moving
A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery."

There is no such action as "Move" or "Normal Move." There is only the idea of moving, which is when a model/unit relocates its position. This can happen during any phase.

Instead of its normal move, Solitaire can Blitz. The normal move that is being referenced is as above: relocating the model's position while remaining wholly within a number of inches dictated by the Move characteristic.

"Advancing
When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase."

If you pick the Solitaire in the Movement phase and use its Blitz rule, you are picking a unit to move in the Movement phase, therefore you can declare to advance with it.

We're going around in circles here and getting nowhere. If there is no such thing as a Move or Normal Move action, what happens when I choose to move my model and not advance? What do we call that process? Hyper-relocation-as-per-the-rules-but-not-advancing? Sounds a bit daft to me.

Ask GW and await clarification.

Yes, please stop creating rules in your head where there is none. Else you get this:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
We're going around in circles here and getting nowhere. If there is no such thing as a Move or Normal Move action, what happens when I choose to move my model and not advance? What do we call that process? Hyper-relocation-as-per-the-rules-but-not-advancing?

A move without advancing is a... move? Wow that was hard.

An Actual Englishman wrote:
"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance,..."


It clearly doesn't mean "move" ....

Wha... ?

Advancing has only one prerequisite to function: You have to pick a unit to move (in the movement phase).

Now the only question is: Does a Blitz move count as a move?

Option 1: Yes it does. -> You can advance.
Option 2: No it doesn't -> I can't advance, but now I can move within 1" of enemy units, I could fire heavy weapons without penalty (If the solitaire had one), and so on. Because it doesn't count as a move, the move restiction rules don't apply.

Which one do you pick?

It seems like the wording of the Blitz rule modifies the movement characteristics, not replaces a "normal move" with "blitz move".

"...if you do so, add 2D6" to the model's Move characteristic for this turn."

Otherwise, I think on a strict RAW standpoint, it SHOULD have been written "if you do so, the model's Move characteristic becomes 12+2D6" instead" or "if you do so, this model moves 2D6" plus the model's Move characteristic this turn."

The wording of the rule specifically modifies a characteristic as its function - it's not really replacing anything the way I see it.

I also can't seem to find "blitz move" is not a "normal move" and that advancing can only be applied to "normal move, only".

There also aren't any restrictions being able to stack different modifiers - only modifiers from the same ability doesn't stack per RAW. Why is it that +1d6" from advance can't stack with +2d6" from blitz?

Weidekuh wrote:
Yes, please stop creating rules in your head where there is none. Else you get this:

Not really creating rules in my head though am I? It's right there in the rule book. You can declare to advance (before you move) or you can declare to move. If you do one you cannot do the other. If I blitz (move) I cannot advance because I have elected to move (although the normal move is replaced by the Blitz)

Weidekuh wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
We're going around in circles here and getting nowhere. If there is no such thing as a Move or Normal Move action, what happens when I choose to move my model and not advance? What do we call that process? Hyper-relocation-as-per-the-rules-but-not-advancing?

A move without advancing is a... move? Wow that was hard.

I think you'll find I was responding to this, genius;

 Kharneth wrote:
There is no such thing as a normal move.

Weidekuh wrote:

An Actual Englishman wrote:
"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance,..."


It clearly doesn't mean "move" ....

Wha... ?

Quote my full line there rather than cut it off mid sentence, or you take things completely out of context which is strawman 101.

Weidekuh wrote:
Advancing has only one prerequisite to function: You have to pick a unit to move (in the movement phase).

That, and declare that you are advancing.

Weidekuh wrote:
Now the only question is: Does a Blitz move count as a move?

Not the only question though, see above.

Weidekuh wrote:
Option 1: Yes it does. -> You can advance.
Option 2: No it doesn't -> I can't advance, but now I can move within 1" of enemy units, I could fire heavy weapons without penalty (If the solitaire had one), and so on. Because it doesn't count as a move, the move restiction rules don't apply.

Which one do you pick?

Again, see above.

An Actual Englishman: "Not really creating rules in my head though am I? It's right there in the rule book. You can declare to advance (before you move) or you can declare to move. If you do one you cannot do the other. If I blitz (move) I cannot advance because I have elected to move (although the normal move is replaced by the Blitz)"

Bolded is untrue.

There is no such thing as declaring to move. In the movement phase, units can move. Only Advancing is a declaration. Your units can move during the movement phase and you move them by keeping them within inches equal to your movement characteristic. There is no "Move or Advance," that's not a rule, that's not an option.

During the movement phase you have 2 options, you can:
1) Move
2) Not Move

If you move during the movement phase (option #1) than you can declare that you are advancing.

It's that simple. There is no special "normal move" which is a separate thing from an advance.You either move or you don't move, and if you move you can choose to advance which tacks on additional rules and restrictions to your move - you get further distance, but can only shoot assault weapons and cannot charge.

You must declare to advance before moving.

You are right in that normally you don't declare to move but if you declare that you are going to Blitz you have just declared that you are going to move as the Blitz rules, hence you cannot Advance?

I don't see the confusion here, ask GW, I'm out and have given my opinion enough.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
It clearly doesn't mean "move" as in "complete a move action" because again, they are different things (advancing and moving). This is easily evidenced. They have different rules associated with them and they act differently.

I clearly cited where both a normal move and a Blitz move are both stated as moves. Advance says "when you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase..." Note it doesn't specify what kind of move.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
And to repeat myself from earlier;
No. Rules-wise, Advance is not an "extension" to your normal move, but an alternative to your normal move which extends your movement characteristic by D6" in return for some limitations. But it's an entirely different thing from "normal move".

Just because you repeat yourself doesn't make it true. Rules citation please. It's something that they say adds to your move characteristic. A Bltiz move is a move which also adds to your characteristic. Advance is said to be able to be used when you select a unit to move, and there's not statement that it is only a normal move. Blitz moves do not state they prohibit also Advancing. All you cave is your theory on how they are different, without really backing it up with rules citations. I gave you rules citations for my position.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You must declare to advance before moving.

You are right in that normally you don't declare to move but if you declare that you are going to Blitz you have just declared that you are going to move as the Blitz rules, hence you cannot Advance?

I don't see the confusion here, ask GW, I'm out and have given my opinion enough.

Neither the Blitz rules nor the Advance rules say that they cannot work together.

Blitz says that you increase your Move characteristic by 2d6".

Advance says that you must move during the movement phase in order to declare that you will advance.

So, it's my turn with Solitaire and I decide that I'm going to move him, but instead of a normal move I'm going to Blitz. Because Blitz is a move during the movement phase, I'm going to advance.

There is nothing in the rules that suggests this shouldn't be allowed. The move that is being replaced by Blitz is the standard move that is on its datasheet, not the new move that is 2d6" faster. None of this has anything to do with advancing, it's just a modification of the unit's characteristic.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You must declare to advance before moving.

You are right in that normally you don't declare to move but if you declare that you are going to Blitz you have just declared that you are going to move as the Blitz rules, hence you cannot Advance?

I don't see the confusion here, ask GW, I'm out and have given my opinion enough.

From the battle primer:

Advance
When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that
it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all
models in the unit for that Movement phase. A unit that Advances can’t shoot
or charge later that turn.

But advancing only cares if you moved or not. It doesn't care HOW you moved. When a rule cares HOW you moved, there are precedents for these restrictions:

Falling Back
Units starting the Movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit can either
remain stationary or Fall Back. If you choose to Fall Back, the unit must end its
move more than 1" away from all enemy units. If a unit Falls Back, it cannot
Advance (see below), or charge later that turn. A unit that Falls Back also cannot
shoot later that turn unless it can Fly.

Here we see that when a unit performs a specific move called "Falling Back", it cannot advance.

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with your interpretation.

Indeed

I declare advance
That means I move
I then declare blitz, so instead of a normal move - not a defined rule term, because it is not in caps or in bold - I make my move using blitz

Entirely works together, undeniably raw.

A term does not need to be in caps and bold to be a rules term. Why do you believe this to be the case? Where in the rule book is this stated?

It doesn't work because if you have Blitzed you have moved. If you have moved you cannot advance.

Let me make it abundantly clear -

You do not move then announce you're going to advance.
You state the model is advancing before it moves.
If the model is advancing it follows the rules for advancing as specified in the book. No blitz.
If the model is moving it cannot advance (and there is no need to announce this because there is only one alternative that you have not announced) because you can only do one or the other. This is absolutely defined in the rules.

Blitz states, as clear as day, that it replaces your NORMAL MOVE. You cannot, again, move and advance.

RAW you cannot Blifz and Advance. You could if Blitz only changed your movement characteristic for a turn (along with the other benefits). If it didn't state "this replaces your normal move".

It is irrelevant how many of you jump in and argue otherwise at this point. I know my feelings on the matter and until GW clarify I'll be playing this way. Ask GW. Also be aware that so far when I have weighed in on these rules discussions I have a 100% track record of going the way of the GW ruling. Could be a first for everything though. *shrug*

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

RAW you cannot Blifz and Advance. You could if Blitz only changed your movement characteristic for a turn (along with the other benefits). If it didn't state "this replaces your normal move".

Nothing in the blitz rule says "this replaces your normal move." Stop making things up that arent there. I already quoted the blitz rule. Here it is again, the relevant part.

"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the solitaire, you can make a blitz move with it. If you do so add 2D6" to the move characteristic for this turn...."

I have highlighted the important part in red. Blitz adds 2D6" to the solitairs 12" move characteristic. It doesnt replace anything. The solitairs move characteristic is now 12" + 2D6".

Advance :

"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase."

Advancing adds 1D6" to the move characteristic, which is then 12" + 2D6" + 1D6".

Sorry it says "instead of making a normal move". I stated this earlier. Repeatedly.

People I'm done here, I don't play harlies and have no vested interest in this discussion any longer. You're not going to convince me of your position and it doesn't look like I'm going to convince you so rather than just throw the same stuff back and forth at each other let's wait to see what GW say.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Sorry it says "instead of making a normal move". I stated this earlier. Repeatedly.

And i repeatedly explained what that "instead of making a normal move" means. Its explained in the next sentence which i highlighted red.

Yep, it's abundantly clear that you advance then blitz.
Advance adds to your move
Blitz adds to your move

They both work together.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, it's abundantly clear that you advance then blitz.
Advance adds to your move
Blitz adds to your move

They both work together.

Yes, it's so clear we've had 3 pages of debate about it. -rolleyes-

I disagree that you can advance when using Blitz, but I fully admit it isn't clear cut one way or the other. To say otherwise is highly disingenuous.

@BaconCatBug

I don't understand why you disagree.
Is "Blitz" a move of some sort?
Does Advance require you to move?

If both are yes, then why does it not work?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, it's abundantly clear that you advance then blitz.
Advance adds to your move
Blitz adds to your move

They both work together.

Yes, it's so clear we've had 3 pages of debate about it. -rolleyes-

I disagree that you can advance when using Blitz, but I fully admit it isn't clear cut one way or the other. To say otherwise is highly disingenuous.

Blitz is a move
Advancing is done when you move
What's the issue?
You've so far cited no rules to show it is anything other than possible.

I have no idea who/what Solitaire is, but I sort of am guessing it's a Knight.

Does anyone here think that it'd be OP for Solitaire to be able to blitz and advance? Or is it solely that you don't think the rules support that chance?

A solitaire is a harlequin. If he can blitz and advance his average movement is 12" + 10,5". He can charge after advancing, and ignores models and terrain. Thats an average threat range on 29,5". When he blitzes he gets +2 attacks, for a total of 10 attacks, hitting on 2+, with a S5 AP AP-2 D1 weapon. And he has a 3+ invuln sv. For 98 pts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
A solitaire is a harlequin. If he can blitz and advance his average movement is 12" + 10,5". He can charge after advancing, and ignores models and terrain. Thats an average threat range on 29,5". When he blitzes he gets +2 attacks, for a total of 10 attacks, hitting on 2+, with a S5 AP AP-2 D1 weapon. And he has a 3+ invuln sv. For 98 pts.

All right then, and the idea here is that "the only way they is fair" is if Blitz replaces an Advance, effectively allowing it to Advance an extra d6"? It really seems like an implied reason for a lot of people's arguments here is that blitz+advance is simply too powerful to be intended?

The intent of the rule is clear. It gives it a speed and attack advantage. To claim it can advance too is asking for more advantage. Why? There’s no reason to get a double bonus. The rules intent is obvious, people should be happy with it.

The rules are also clear, as is the intent. Blitz makes him insanely fast in an insanely fast army. Everyone else can also move and advance and stil,c shrugs, so the itnet is that he can as wel.
When you Advance, you may move M plus d6
Blitz says, when moving, you can move M plus 2d6
None of those rules interrfere with each other

The rule is clear.

Except the rule replaces your normal movement, which is what allows you to advance.

Can we all agree that it's actually unclear and needs an errata or FAQ?

No one except the GW rules team knows the intent. If they wanted the solitaire not to advance they would have included it in the rule. Its pretty clear to me. No need for a FAQ.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except the rule replaces your normal movement, which is what allows you to advance.

Can we all agree that it's actually unclear and needs an errata or FAQ?

You cannot replace a normal move that does not exist in the first place. The only stipulation for advancing is that you move (not that you do a "normal move").

Yes, we ought to at least agree that it's unclear.