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Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





For orks yes. 200 is even on the low side on 2k. Reason is simple. Orks have basically 6 things worth fielding. Warboss, weirdboy, boyz, gretchin, kustom mega kannon, stormboyz. Well big mek with kustom force field and painboy are allright. Note only non-characters there are boyz, gretchins, stormboyz and artirelly piece which top of that costs 36€ for 42 pts so not many field maximum 18(that would be very good albeit).

Only thing orks really CAN do is flood the table with cheap bodies, go for objectives and hope they don't get tabled. They live and die by numbers. And 200 models is dirt easy to have with boyz, gretchins and stormboyz. 30 gretchin is 90 pts. 30 boyz with upgrades will be around 200 pts. 120 boyz 1200 pts, 90 gretchins 270 pts.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





tneva82 wrote:
 Billagio wrote:
Cant he just...shoot over them and kill the tank bustas? Theyre tall enough to see past the smallest model in the game. Besides, im not gonna bring a wall of grots in a standard list anyway


What tank bustas?-) Point isn't to "buy time for tank bustas to kill knights". Point is to keep knights away from objectives. If he spends all his game in his deployment zone then you have already won the game by default! Da jump wall of grots(and besides if you don't have grots get them. They are damn awesome) and knight player finds himself front of a rather annoying roadblock(which incidentally is something like 60" wide so even knights 12" speed won't make it easy to go through and that's assuming table is stupid open billiar board). Sure killing them ain't trouble. But he has to invest ridiculous amount of points to clear one stinking unit of grots and has advanced very little. Then to add insult to injury orks could da jump yet another. And all the while there's that 200 boyz he will struggle to clear in time. Especially if ork player uses up bit of Mork's Kunning. You have trouble killing knight with boyz? Well don't charge. You just give them free overwatch and some stomps. If knight charge you do fall back. Don't give him 12-15 stomp attacks for bunch of attacks that wound on 6 and he has 3+ save. You don't NEED to kill knights as there's this thing called "scenario" which tends to have these things called "objectives". And orks have it lot easier than ~5 model knight army. Well maybe 7 if he has lots of armigers but even at most pure knight has 11 models and that's all armigers. And THOSE orks can actually kill by sheer numbers as wounding is 5+ vs them.

Whether you have tank bustas is fairly irrelevant for winning as your primary goal shouldn't even be killing those and fixating on killing them is exactly what can lose the game for you.


I mean yeah obviously you can camp objectives with a gak load of boys, which is what any ork player nowadays would do. But the conversation was around bringing enough anti tank to KILL them, not how to win the game by not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/24 23:11:47


 Tactical_Spam wrote:
You never know when that leman russ will punch you back

 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





ValentineGames wrote:
 akaean wrote:
Players who do a pick up game against an all Primaris list from Dark Imperium and curb stomp it while telling this wet behind the ears player to git good are a cancer.

And all too common unfortunately


But something that has to happen. Sure, at the start of the game they're not suddenly going to get better, but they still learned something.
If they never improve, they're still going to get stomped. Sure the attitude behind "get gud" is toxic, but the idea that people should improve, and learn from experience aren't.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Billagio wrote:
I mean yeah obviously you can camp objectives with a gak load of boys, which is what any ork player nowadays would do. But the conversation was around bringing enough anti tank to KILL them, not how to win the game by not.


Topic is @Are knights not FLGS friendly?". And I replied to you wondering what he can do. Well he can win against them. Are you fixated on winning game or making empty shows by destroying one even if it means losing game? Are you trying to win a game or destroy knight?

" Even if I brought all tank bustas I would probably lose."

Based on that you seem to be wondering how to win. Not how to destroy a knight. I told you how to win. Don't try to change topic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 02:35:20


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in ca
Furious Fire Dragon





As long as they are an addition to an army I wouldn't have an issue with knights, however when its a list just made of knights is boring as all hell to play against
   
Made in us
Drone without a Controller




Okinawa

 Smotejob wrote:

Are Knights not FLGS friendly?
What is the primary concern people have when facing a knight?


One Knight/LOW shouldn't be a problem but when your entire list is made of a single unit type (Green wave, Tank company, Knights, all flyers, etc.) it gives you an edge against the common all-comers lists. Sure you can shoot lascannon's at boyz and bolter's at knights, its just not very effective.
If both you and your opponent showed up with competitive lists, this is understood and part of the game. If you guys are taking a more casual approach you can start the game off with a pretty decent advantage and simply scurrying from cover to cover for 5 rounds and hiding isn't that much fun for the other guy even if he wins...

Also keep in mind that Knights play very few models and it often feels more rewarding to wipe a squad of guardsmen off an objective than deal 3 wounds to a knight.

Lastly Knights are shiny new and apparently have a good dex, people might still hold grudges against super heavies, feel uncomfortable facing the unknown or simply be a bit jealous. There should be no issue playing 2k knights, just make sure your on the same page or be flexible and bring a backup list with half knights/half allied infantry...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 07:38:59


 
   
Made in au
Speed Drybrushing





Newcastle NSW

Honestly people complaining about full Knight armies and Lords of War in general seem to be holding grudges worthy of a Dwarfen King. Lords of War can be killed just as fast as anything else in 8th, just need to play better.

Not a GW apologist  
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

Killing 1 knight in an army is pretty easy.
Killing an army of them is a headache.

It really boils down to being able to hide your anti-tank so they can't blow it off the board before it can do the lord's work.

Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation



Minnesota

I do think that Knights are FLGS friendly. They are a skew list by nature, so you should inform your opponent that you'll be bringing knights and give them an opportunity to adjust accordingly if they like/can. Note: I always tell my opponent what army I'll be playing as well as general composition (tyranids monster mash, or Tau infantry-heavy)
On the topic of who's responsibility it is to adjust their list: both. Is there any sport where the stronger player will play at full strength during practice versus a newbie? Do you start dunking while teaching a 5 year old basketball? Do you check that 5 year old into a wall when teaching hockey? In martial arts, does the experienced student attempt to overwhelm their learning sparring partner? In any "competition sport", during practice the onus is almost always on the more skilled, experienced player to handicap themselves somehow, or not play to their full ability. If they can lower their skill to 110% of the newbie's level, this gives both a more interesting game as well as a better learning environment that encourages the newbie to "git gud" while also helping them do just that. This is a two player game, enjoyment is a shared responsibility.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






If a knight list has a variety of stuff, including most importantly several of the mini-knights, and is not just a wall of over-optimized gunline, then I don't think it's any kind of a problem.

The little mini-knights help a lot making knights less of an always-skew list, because they can be wounded by S4 on 5s. Add to that the fact that helverins/armigers lack the "fall back and shoot" and light infantry suddenly has more to do than just try to achieve as many turns as possible lined up 1" in front of a big knight that wants to go somewhere.

People have a huge problem understanding that the objective of the game of 40k is not usually "kill the enemy army".

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





It depends on the community like a lot of people said.

Honestly, though, I think the casual player's biggest gripe will be the mix of Ion Bulwark + Rotate, and Hawkshroud.

I haven't played a game like that 2K, though. Someone brought 2 questorus and a dominus at 1500 points tho, that was rough.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Honestly, most players need to approach unwinnable games with a different attitude. Particularly in a casual setting, punting on the option of winning and just finding out what you can accomplish can be a lot of fun. Never give up, never surrender, go down swinging no matter the odds. You'll generate far more memorable games and suffer far less matchup anxiety if you learn to have fun being on the wrong side of a bad matchup.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 LunarSol wrote:
Honestly, most players need to approach unwinnable games with a different attitude. Particularly in a casual setting, punting on the option of winning and just finding out what you can accomplish can be a lot of fun. Never give up, never surrender, go down swinging no matter the odds. You'll generate far more memorable games and suffer far less matchup anxiety if you learn to have fun being on the wrong side of a bad matchup.


I admire and respect your attitude. I wish we all could share that. Personally I can't enjoy an unbalanced game. Once things get one sided and it's clear you are not gonna win things can get really funny as you do silly things for the heck of it and you can make the best out of the experience, but when you go to play a game and from the start you are just getting rocked its not fun. I've conceded and had people concede to me turn one because the outcome is clear and it's just not going to be fun. Personally I don't bother with games I don't want to play due to list strength disparity. Like I remember going to try and play a 1000 point Primaris list early in 8th and the only guy available insisted on running morty magnus and a renegade psyker and insisted it would be fine. Yeaaaahhh I didn't bother with that one lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/28 20:07:12


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Like I remember going to try and play a 1000 point Primaris list early in 8th and the only guy available insisted on running morty magnus and a renegade psyker and insisted it would be fine. Yeaaaahhh I didn't bother with that one lol.


Funny enough, I'm kinda expecting to play almost this exact scenario tomorrow. It's going to be rough.

The thing is, I don't go looking for lopsided games; I just would rather play the hand I'm dealt than fold. There's always something to learn from a game. I get crippled on turn one to a quarter of my army left; its still an opportunity to see just how much damage 500 points is capable of. Sure; I'm not going to win, but for the rest of the game I'm going to learn as much as I can with what I have and next game that's a chunk of my army that will do better than it did before. Sometimes you lose a model you think is key early. You can either feel and be defeated or get a chance to learn just how key that model actually is. On the flip side, watching your opponent operate at full capacity is a great way to understand how their army actually works.

Even if winning is really important to you, its worth losing as long as you learn from your failure. Being in a bad situation is where you learn to get creative and if you let yourself get pushed into the corner when nothing is at stake, you'll be far more capable of finding a way out when it actually matters.
   
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Hmm... I thought there was another thread about "make melta good again" somewhere around here...

Ran into a Knight list and ran through a gallant like it was a cheesecake in front of an overweight gamer. Turn 1. I tend to bring modest amounts of melta every game, though.

Caveat that I bring a Valiant of my own, but the 12 melta is what really brought it down in a heap with some auxiliary damage from the rest of the army.

A full Knight list is rough. It is T8 spam. Invalidates large portions of an army. I realize a lasgun can hurt a Knight, but that's not going to help in game when starting 4 of them down. You don't have to nullify it to effectively invalidate the threat a unit presents.

Best them with masses of models, if they're really annoying you or taking over your meta. Stop playing eternal war kill point missions. Make better use of terrain and table space to not let them kill pocket your entire army.

Also, on the topic of throwing money at the hobby and respecting people who do not have the same resources: should I shelf my Sororitas army because I am pretty sure they are the dumbest army to pay for from a point to dollars perspective...

Money is a barrier for being able to list tailor or explore options (but I encourage proxying against me in casual games for people to explore the options before investing), but it should not be used to discriminate against the player who had been collecting for many years. I get it, you only can get a unit every few months, but why should I shelf the stuff I have put love and effort into as a result? Doesn't sound like I would want to play in that environment for very long.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Rolsheen wrote:
Honestly people complaining about full Knight armies and Lords of War in general seem to be holding grudges worthy of a Dwarfen King. Lords of War can be killed just as fast as anything else in 8th, just need to play better.

Do you have any tips, how to kill three knights with a GK army?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Purifying Tempest wrote:

A full Knight list is rough. It is T8 spam. Invalidates large portions of an army. I realize a lasgun can hurt a Knight, but that's not going to help in game when starting 4 of them down. You don't have to nullify it to effectively invalidate the threat a unit presents.


Then again you don't need to kill the 4 to win the game. Kill 1, damage one or two more enough to hit next bracket, knight army is suddenly pretty teethless.

It seems weird idea that "if you can't table the opponent then the army is broken" mentality has permeated gamers. People have forgotten entirely there's these things called "scenarios" which generally don't require killing units to win.

Too bad. Pure kill point games are boooring.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/29 08:54:56


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Any tips how to kill one, with an army that doesn't have any melta weapons ?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Your normal army? It's not like you need meltas and frankly meltas SUCK in this edition so if you take them you are doing something bad.

Are you troubled about killing leman russes? Are you giving up if you face 3 leman russ? Not that much different actually compared to knight in terms of survivability. 36 wounds vs 24 wounds with 5++. Shooting wise you would be looking at 6d6 S8 -2 Dd3 vs whatever knights are shooting. Paladins for example would be shooting whopping 2d6 equal shots...WHOO! Even avenger cannon which is the questor chassis's best gun shoots 12 S6 -2 D2 shots. Less shots than russes and less S. Better D value at least though.

People have been fielding 3-5 leman russ armies for ages and now 1 knight is trouble?

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





I have yet to win a game with my pure knights since the codex dropped. Maybe it's my gaming group? It is quite competitive. But I normally win most of my games and I run pure tzeentch daemons, which is not considered competitive, so I doubt it's that. Maybe they just know that they can stall my force and play the mission get a big enough lead and then switch to survival mode?

I'll say it again, if your plan to beat knights is to destroy them. You are doing it wrong. People seem to forget that the objective of the mission isn't kill the enemy army. It's to score more victory points than your opponent. Play the mission.

All knights do is force armies that are used to tabling their opponents to win into playing the mission. That's their meta shifting effect. Is that a bad thing?

Personally, I find getting tabled to be a pretty bad gameplay experience. So any armies that encourage people to build lists that can play the mission rather than building lists that can table their opponent is a good thing.


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




tneva82 wrote:
Your normal army? It's not like you need meltas and frankly meltas SUCK in this edition so if you take them you are doing something bad.

Not that much different actually compared to knight in terms of survivability. 36 wounds vs 24 wounds with 5++. Shooting wise you would be looking at 6d6 S8 -2 Dd3 vs whatever knights are shooting. Paladins for example would be shooting whopping 2d6 equal shots...WHOO! Even avenger cannon which is the questor chassis's best gun shoots 12 S6 -2 D2 shots. Less shots than russes and less S. Better D value at least though.

People have been fielding 3-5 leman russ armies for ages and now 1 knight is trouble?

I don't think I ever done more then 11 wounds to a knight in a turn, and that was in melee, and then on my opponents turn he counter charged me with two other knights and killed 9 out of 10 paladins that were engaging the first knight. Next turn draigo did some wounds to the wounded knight, but he shield saved it. and the 3 knights killed him and the last paladins. After that it was my paladins running away for 2 turn from his knights, but he was faster. And he killed my NDK turn 1, because he is too tall to hide anywhere on the table.

Are you troubled about killing leman russes?

Yes.


Are you giving up if you face 3 leman russ?

that is a trick question, we pay for table time, so I I would quit my opponent could just play against someone else, but I would still have to pay my half. So no we don't quit here.


I'll say it again, if your plan to beat knights is to destroy them. You are doing it wrong. People seem to forget that the objective of the mission isn't kill the enemy army. It's to score more victory points than your opponent. Play the mission.

I kind of a struggle with that. Before I was runing 5 units of paladins. Now I can run only 3, so a knight army often has more units then I do, and their shoting is a lot more effective, specially as far killing the NDKs goes. My turn one shoting does maybe 1-2 wounds, my opponent almost always kills either a unit or the NDK, unless I put him far away out of range, but then he is too slow to reach objectives or use his hvy weapons.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/29 09:58:41


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Well gee you are playing GK that's about one of the worst armies out there competing with orks for the title. Frankly GK will struggle against wet paper. Top of that you use TEN of the overpriced(even for GK) paladins?

If you bring up super thematic but weak list(even for GK) of a faction that's in dire need of update you will strugle to win against anything.

It would be much easier to fix GK codex to be more powerful than bring down power level of every single codex to GK level.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Strikes are better then terminators right? lets say I have 15 strikes instead of the termintors, How would it help? their hvy weapons are just as bad, and rhinos don't really help with killing knights.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Rhino's are bad for any marines so for starters drop them.

And how would it help? Well you would have 3 squads rather than 1. You will struggle to kill knights(thanks GW for the codex) so you will be going for the scenario. Which means ability to be on multiple places gives more objectives and more survivability. Helps also being smaller than paladins so you can find LOS blocking bit easier.

Alas GK codex is in serious deep trouble. Knights are not by far only thing they struggle. If you have trouble with 3 leman russ then...I need 3 leman russ if I want to be fairly sure at least one of them gets to shoot if I go 2nd!

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Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




I have yet to see terrain that helps vs knights they are so tall they can draw LoS to anywhere on any table. Plus If I have NDK, 3 strikes in rhinos, draigo and some sort of points filler, and they have 2 knights, 1 big knight and 3 knightlings Then they have more units then me, specially after turn 1-2 when they started to kill stuff. Plus they always get first blood and kill the warlord.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Good sized building wall assuming it's not riddled with holes ala GW ruin will protect anything behind it from even warlord titan.

You have weird amount of units. The knight list is just about 2k though pretty much requires gallant there. But for GK that sounds small. 3 grand master on dreadknight(these are GK's best units so better max out on them...It's not called codex GMDK without reason), 3 strike squads, 2 interceptor squads and stormhawk would be around 1650 pts. Add in some upgrades and maybe another squad. 9 units there already.

Those GMK's will really hurt knight in combat(no inv save there while you posses 4++ minimum). You should get at least 1 of knights with those.

That flier will strip wounds and be somewhat resilient. Might be off with that one but seemed like it could work. Alternatively more squads to hide around.

But best advice is hope for CA to give major boost to GK. They desperately need it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/29 10:32:48


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Made in us
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Phoenix, AZ, USA

To beat Monsters, you have to take Monsters. GMDKs will kill Knights (and get killed by Knights). Use tall terrain, get your Strikes off the ground, and First to the Frey your GMDK(s) into Assault.

You don’t have to kill all the Knights in one turn, you just have to tie up enough Knights throughout the game to win the mission.

Also, probably play some Knights of your own. GK aren’t in a good place until they get a significant buff in a future Chapter Approved.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka






Played knights for the first time today. He had 1 melta knights and one cannon knight, his leader was a big knight with a harpoon and flamer. He also had some IG units.
First turn he moved everything up shot the melta at draigo, and killed him. The cannon shot at my rhino. His harpoon blew up another rhino and his flamer took down my strike marines. I ingored the knights at shot at the IG that all run to objectives. Killed 3-4 from each unit with my storm bolters and put my big 10 man units on the closest objective. On his turn two he moved and shot everything at my terminators, and charge all the units that were left alive. Ah and before he charged he shot my NDK down, which gave him some special objective. I was trying to hold back the NDK to counter charge with it.

I am going to play him again tomorrow, so any tips would be awesome.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

How did his Valiant get within 12” of your Rhino on turn 1?

How was Draigo onnthe table on turn 1? He starts off the table and can only arrive starting turn 2 per the Beta rule.

Are you not using terrain?

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Karol wrote:
 Rolsheen wrote:
Honestly people complaining about full Knight armies and Lords of War in general seem to be holding grudges worthy of a Dwarfen King. Lords of War can be killed just as fast as anything else in 8th, just need to play better.

Do you have any tips, how to kill three knights with a GK army?


Yep. You most likely will not win because a pure Knights list is a hard counter to GK. If you’re looking for a TAC faction right now in 8th ed, pure GK is the wrong thing to play.

My advice would be to bring a Tallarn Supreme Command detachment with a Shadowsword. Or a Knights detachment with a Knight Castellan.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/30 15:03:12


 
   
 
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