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To account for new models. Stormcast have always been good enough.

My problem with Space Marines is that except for a couple of list archetypes (gulliman razorbacks etc)... almost no 2000 pt pure marines list you can make looks like it is good enough. They always look like you need another 250 points to bring them up to standard.

And given that 250 points is the cost of 5 terminators, or two tactical squads, you can see why.

Regarding Chapter Tactics, I could imagine that GW gives SM and CSM the IG treatment: Infantry, Bikes and Cybots/Helbrutes get the CT they already have and the rest gets something else.

I bloody hope so. My Rhinos are not pining for a reroll charges trait.

I would like to see a patch like, for example, bolters used by marines (chaos or Imperial) get -1 save due to bigger caliber, tech, whatever.

This is exactly the problem. Thinking Space Marines are the only army that has internal balance issues is just the most blinkered view possible. You mention Nids and Tau like half their dexes aren't just pointless inclusion competitively and that's just the two I'm thoroughly versed in. It's this stupid only child syndrome that gives SM players the negative rep they have.

 SHUPPET wrote:
This is exactly the problem. Thinking Space Marines are the only army that has internal balance issues is just the most blinkered view possible. You mention Nids and Tau like half their dexes aren't just pointless inclusion competitively and that's just the two I'm thoroughly versed in. It's this stupid only child syndrome that gives SM players the negative rep they have.

Well thats not really true is it. The Tau and nid books are relatively internally balanced compared to marines and still offer the capability to run very diverse forces. There are a lot of effective list variations for both of those codexes floating around without having to rely on other books as a crutch.

Process wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
This is exactly the problem. Thinking Space Marines are the only army that has internal balance issues is just the most blinkered view possible. You mention Nids and Tau like half their dexes aren't just pointless inclusion competitively and that's just the two I'm thoroughly versed in. It's this stupid only child syndrome that gives SM players the negative rep they have.

Well thats not really true is it. The Tau and nid books are relatively internally balanced compared to marines and still offer the capability to run very diverse forces. There are a lot of effective list variations for both of those codexes floating around without having to rely on other books as a crutch.

Broodlord
Old One Eye
Harpy
Haruspex
Crone
Lictor
Shrikes
Skyslashers
Maleceptor
Pyrovores
Tervigon
Zoanthropes
Tyranid Prime
Tyrannocyte
Tyrant Guard
Toxicrine
Dimachaeron
Deathleaper
Red Terror
Trygon Prime
every single LOW


and that's just being generous and only including utter garbage units and not including things that just completely outclassed like Biovores, or just useless things like Warriors, Venomthropes and Gargs that see zero play, even though that was the original statement.


SO MUCH INTERNAL BALANCE


"only MY army needs fixes!"

What if SM could 'drop pod assault'

ie turn 1 DS with pods.

Fluffy, and restores some of the power of the army?

If needed you could put some limitation e.g. tac squads only

I really think the nerf to pods (reaction to the daft Battle Company formation in 7th - which was beyond stupid, but could have easily been fixed by making it rhinos only and pods half price or some such) has hampered one of the iconic things space marines do - drop out of the sky on fire and smash things up

zerosignal wrote:
What if SM could 'drop pod assault'

ie turn 1 DS with pods.

Fluffy, and restores some of the power of the army?

If needed you could put some limitation e.g. tac squads only

I really think the nerf to pods (reaction to the daft Battle Company formation in 7th - which was beyond stupid, but could have easily been fixed by making it rhinos only and pods half price or some such) has hampered one of the iconic things space marines do - drop out of the sky on fire and smash things up

Would be a great stratagem to add - 1 CP to allow 1 pod to deep strike out of deployment zone on turn 1... 3 CP for 2.

So you have to pay the 'pod cost and the CP cost to do what they used to do, and can only do it in limited numbers.

Would be worth testing.

These are the kind of stratagems that I believe SM would already have if they were being released today. 12 months ago, the rules writers thought a codex would work if you had 1.5 pages of stratagems where 50% of them were locked to specific units, and the others locked to specific chapters/forge worlds. Like the SM Scout Bikers one, or the Kataphron Destroyers (not breachers!) one in AdMech.

Way too limited in scope and usefulness.

More recent codexes have 2 pages of strats and a fair chunk of them can be used by wider groupings like all INFANTRY or whatever.

 Primark G wrote:

There have been plenty of multi-wound weapons since the very beginning of 8th edition. Basically what you are saying is really any multi-wound model is hot garbage but people play Grotesques, Shining Spears, Bullgyrn, Blightlords, Flyrants, vehicles, etc. It is a really dumb argument that holds no merit.

Grotesques have T5, invulnerable save and FNP.. Last time I checked primaris marines have none of those. Oh and double the wounds...Nor do they move what 16", have 4++, shoot/fight with S6(S3 in melee), -4, D2. Nor do they have 3+ wounds and have either 2+ or 4++ mix of unit with ability to get +1 to save roll so 3++...

Lol. You are comparing apples to oranges. Hell just 3 wounds is HUGE as suddenly it takes 2 hits to kill model with D2 weapons that are numerous. So comparing bullgryn to primaris is very disgenious.

 SHUPPET wrote:
SW has a dex on the way. BA is one of the bigger threats in the meta. SoB is everywhere. Same with CSM. Did you really put Thousand Sons and DG up there as examples of armies that need buffs before we even finish giving all armies codexes?

There's literally armies without dexes. Almost every dex has imbalances, theres a laundry list of units in my Nid and Tay book that's just pointless, are you including them? let's just never give the other armies a dex until we've achieved perfect internal balance in the other dexes? Nah you just want it for SM right? Seriously it's time we just quit the whining, wait your turn, there is very competitive armies in almost all those books you mention. SM never takes long to get a new codex once it's that season, and you know this isn't going to make GW skip other races, so I don't get the point of some of these posts. Nobodys saying SM codex needs to stay this way forever.

I never said I thought they needed new books NOW, before all the other factions get released. You seem to be attributing a SM fan boy rabidity to me that isn't there. I think I probably agree with most of the things you've said, we may just be talking past each other. Obviously Orks, SW, GSC, and sisters are going to get their books before anything happens.

Orks and GSC shouldn't have to wait just because GW messed up Marines so hard. It does seem a bit pointless to come out with SW when half their units are likely to be useless...but what can you do.

I may have been reading into what you initially said, but it seemed like you were saying that we shouldn't even be having this conversation until all the other books were out, which seems strange especially when to me at least the initial subject was framed with the general idea of 'once the other books come out will SM get redone.'

I also think it's possible that CA can go a long way towards making Marines (every faction I mentioned) better by reducing points costs. This would at least let SM be seen on tables again outside of BA captains and 1-2 other units.

However I think that Marines at some point probably deserve more than that at some point, as their units are extremely bland and void of special rules compared to basically any other faction. They basically just got an index+, and it really isn't holding up.

Also I'm sure that there are issues with units in other factions, and of course I think that they should also be corrected. I just don't see the issue being as dire as the SM situation, which seriously effects half the armies in the game. If the SM book gets buffed, half the game improves. If 1 nid unit gets buffed, that unit is buffed. Both need to happen, but they aren't the same situation.

tneva82 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

There have been plenty of multi-wound weapons since the very beginning of 8th edition. Basically what you are saying is really any multi-wound model is hot garbage but people play Grotesques, Shining Spears, Bullgyrn, Blightlords, Flyrants, vehicles, etc. It is a really dumb argument that holds no merit.

Grotesques have T5, invulnerable save and FNP.. Last time I checked primaris marines have none of those. Oh and double the wounds...Nor do they move what 16", have 4++, shoot/fight with S6(S3 in melee), -4, D2. Nor do they have 3+ wounds and have either 2+ or 4++ mix of unit with ability to get +1 to save roll so 3++...

Lol. You are comparing apples to oranges. Hell just 3 wounds is HUGE as suddenly it takes 2 hits to kill model with D2 weapons that are numerous. So comparing bullgryn to primaris is very disgenious.

Hahahahahaahahaaaaaaaaano.

Try reading ANYTHING about a units statline before talking about it. Literally everything you listed besides the invuln save, toughness and FNP was a complete fabrication.

Grotesques move 7", have a 5++ base (remember how all the marine players complain that they're shackled to one CT? Yeah, it's a specific CT that gives grots a 4++), don't shoot unless you give them hilariously priced S3 flamers, fight with S5, -2, D1, not S6, -4, D2 lol.

tryyyyy again.

I think you will see a Primaris only codex next. OG Marines will be 'index' bound pretty soon. GW just has to get the rest of the Primaris line out on the shelf first.

jcd386 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
SW has a dex on the way. BA is one of the bigger threats in the meta. SoB is everywhere. Same with CSM. Did you really put Thousand Sons and DG up there as examples of armies that need buffs before we even finish giving all armies codexes?

There's literally armies without dexes. Almost every dex has imbalances, theres a laundry list of units in my Nid and Tay book that's just pointless, are you including them? let's just never give the other armies a dex until we've achieved perfect internal balance in the other dexes? Nah you just want it for SM right? Seriously it's time we just quit the whining, wait your turn, there is very competitive armies in almost all those books you mention. SM never takes long to get a new codex once it's that season, and you know this isn't going to make GW skip other races, so I don't get the point of some of these posts. Nobodys saying SM codex needs to stay this way forever.

I never said I thought they needed new books NOW, before all the other factions get released. You seem to be attributing a SM fan boy rabidity to me that isn't there. I think I probably agree with most of the things you've said, we may just be talking past each other. Obviously Orks, SW, GSC, and sisters are going to get their books before anything happens.

Orks and GSC shouldn't have to wait just because GW messed up Marines so hard. It does seem a bit pointless to come out with SW when half their units are likely to be useless...but what can you do.

I may have been reading into what you initially said, but it seemed like you were saying that we shouldn't even be having this conversation until all the other books were out, which seems strange especially when to me at least the initial subject was framed with the general idea of 'once the other books come out will SM get redone.'

I also think it's possible that CA can go a long way towards making Marines (every faction I mentioned) better by reducing points costs. This would at least let SM be seen on tables again outside of BA captains and 1-2 other units.

However I think that Marines at some point probably deserve more than that at some point, as their units are extremely bland and void of special rules compared to basically any other faction. They basically just got an index+, and it really isn't holding up.

Also I'm sure that there are issues with units in other factions, and of course I think that they should also be corrected. I just don't see the issue being as dire as the SM situation, which seriously effects half the armies in the game. If the SM book gets buffed, half the game improves. If 1 nid unit gets buffed, that unit is buffed. Both need to happen, but they aren't the same situation.

Yup, agree 100%. Marine pricing needs an across-the-board revamp, the Librarius discipline is goddamn TERRIBLE and needs a total redesign outside of maybe null zone and might of heroes, and many weapons and units need the kind of 'flavor pass' we've been getting from index to codex for nearly every other faction. Stratagems, chapter tactics, powers, traits....sounds like a new codex to me, or if you were really feeling nice, a big old free PDF, which would garner some actual serious support for "new GW."

Call me crazy, but I think if you got creative with the tweaks most other factions could be fixed with a CA-style points adjustment and maybe an errata. but marines and, by extension chaos marines need a lot of their stuff redesigned ground up.

As much as I love my Incubi, my Striking Scorpions, my Battle Servitors, fixing those units does not have as wide and as immediate an impact on the overall health of the game as fixing something like a Vindicator, which an actual crapton of units have access to.

jcd386 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
SW has a dex on the way. BA is one of the bigger threats in the meta. SoB is everywhere. Same with CSM. Did you really put Thousand Sons and DG up there as examples of armies that need buffs before we even finish giving all armies codexes?

There's literally armies without dexes. Almost every dex has imbalances, theres a laundry list of units in my Nid and Tay book that's just pointless, are you including them? let's just never give the other armies a dex until we've achieved perfect internal balance in the other dexes? Nah you just want it for SM right? Seriously it's time we just quit the whining, wait your turn, there is very competitive armies in almost all those books you mention. SM never takes long to get a new codex once it's that season, and you know this isn't going to make GW skip other races, so I don't get the point of some of these posts. Nobodys saying SM codex needs to stay this way forever.

I never said I thought they needed new books NOW, before all the other factions get released. You seem to be attributing a SM fan boy rabidity to me that isn't there. I think I probably agree with most of the things you've said, we may just be talking past each other. Obviously Orks, SW, GSC, and sisters are going to get their books before anything happens.

Orks and GSC shouldn't have to wait just because GW messed up Marines so hard. It does seem a bit pointless to come out with SW when half their units are likely to be useless...but what can you do.

I may have been reading into what you initially said, but it seemed like you were saying that we shouldn't even be having this conversation until all the other books were out, which seems strange especially when to me at least the initial subject was framed with the general idea of 'once the other books come out will SM get redone.'

I also think it's possible that CA can go a long way towards making Marines (every faction I mentioned) better by reducing points costs. This would at least let SM be seen on tables again outside of BA captains and 1-2 other units.

However I think that Marines at some point probably deserve more than that at some point, as their units are extremely bland and void of special rules compared to basically any other faction. They basically just got an index+, and it really isn't holding up.

Also I'm sure that there are issues with units in other factions, and of course I think that they should also be corrected. I just don't see the issue being as dire as the SM situation, which seriously effects half the armies in the game. If the SM book gets buffed, half the game improves. If 1 nid unit gets buffed, that unit is buffed. Both need to happen, but they aren't the same situation.

Well I agree with what your saying, and I'm all for SM getting improved, and them being first in line once everyone has dexes. It's kinda hard to know whos saying what but I'm disagreeing with the guys saying to skip the other dexes, and the guys saying only SM needs an updated dex and no Xenos faction, and that all Xenos apparently have great excellent internal balance. It's just a different level of reality for some people. If you disagree with that blinkered approach, then say it to them, there is too many rational SM players just giving this gak a pass because its their own race.

the_scotsman wrote:

As much as I love my Incubi, my Striking Scorpions, my Battle Servitors, fixing those units does not have as wide and as immediate an impact on the overall health of the game as fixing something like a Vindicator, which an actual crapton of units have access to.

The Vindicator is possibly the easiest fix of any Marine unit in the game; give it the Grinding Advance rule that Leman Russes have - i.e. shoot twice if it moved up to half its M stat, and doesn’t suffer the -1 to hit for moving and shooting the Demolisher Cannon. Bing bang boom, done. Maybe bump its points up a little to bring it into line with the Leman Russ.


On the other hand, if you fix the S 4 T 4 W 1 Sv 3+ statline that Marines are plagued with, I think you might actually fix nearly a hundred units in one go.

 SickSix wrote:
I think you will see a Primaris only codex next. OG Marines will be 'index' bound pretty soon. GW just has to get the rest of the Primaris line out on the shelf first.

This conspiracy theory is running since before the SM codex is even out.
And it was debunked many times. there are NO plans to index the regular marines any time soon.

maybe in a few years. but not soon.

kombatwombat wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

As much as I love my Incubi, my Striking Scorpions, my Battle Servitors, fixing those units does not have as wide and as immediate an impact on the overall health of the game as fixing something like a Vindicator, which an actual crapton of units have access to.

The Vindicator is possibly the easiest fix of any Marine unit in the game; give it the Grinding Advance rule that Leman Russes have - i.e. shoot twice if it moved up to half its M stat, and doesn’t suffer the -1 to hit for moving and shooting the Demolisher Cannon. Bing bang boom, done. Maybe bump its points up a little to bring it into line with the Leman Russ.


On the other hand, if you fix the S 4 T 4 W 1 Sv 3+ statline that Marines are plagued with, I think you might actually fix nearly a hundred units in one go.

por que no los dos? Vindy was just one example I had on my mind. I think you could go the "marines are 2W, primaris and terminators are 3W" route. I think the "lets just delete primaris and make the rgular marines have all the same rules" idea is a fantasy at this point, just practically not going to happen as GW is committed. But 3W would fix the major primaris problem of hyper-weakness to flat 2D weaponry.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
I think you will see a Primaris only codex next. OG Marines will be 'index' bound pretty soon. GW just has to get the rest of the Primaris line out on the shelf first.

This conspiracy theory is running since before the SM codex is even out.
And it was debunked many times. there are NO plans to index the regular marines any time soon.

maybe in a few years. but not soon.

I don't think they are suggesting that oldscale marines are getting Indexed any time soon. I think the suggestion is that they might split Primaris off into a separate Codex if they get another wave of releases. Which is plausible, given how many Datasheets are already in the Marines Codex.

That could mean that oldscale armies are stuck with Chapter Approved for any improvements for a long time of course.

My sense is that 40K will not see edition changes but rather evolve through revised Codices and Chapter Approved. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new SM Codex in the next year.

An indicator could be the upcoming Space Wolves Codex. Space Wolves have always been a little different, but if we see big changes in yheir core "space marnie" aspects then perhaps a new SM Codex is not far off?

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
My sense is that 40K will not see edition changes but rather evolve through revised Codices and Chapter Approved. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new SM Codex in the next year.

An indicator could be the upcoming Space Wolves Codex. Space Wolves have always been a little different, but if we see big changes in yheir core "space marnie" aspects then perhaps a new SM Codex is not far off?

I would have agreed until we got AoS 2.0

I think that throws everything up in the air again. Though if we do get a new edition I expect it to be a minor one, where 8e Codexes are still valid.

Stux wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
I think you will see a Primaris only codex next. OG Marines will be 'index' bound pretty soon. GW just has to get the rest of the Primaris line out on the shelf first.

This conspiracy theory is running since before the SM codex is even out.
And it was debunked many times. there are NO plans to index the regular marines any time soon.

maybe in a few years. but not soon.

I don't think they are suggesting that oldscale marines are getting Indexed any time soon. I think the suggestion is that they might split Primaris off into a separate Codex if they get another wave of releases. Which is plausible, given how many Datasheets are already in the Marines Codex.

That could mean that oldscale armies are stuck with Chapter Approved for any improvements for a long time of course.

They can't do that without decoupling the primaris from the chapter tactics, and they can't decouple them.
As long they share "normarines" chapter tactics, having the two in two seperate books would cause as uproar for selling two books for what is essentially one army.
If they try to decouple, it would cause an uproar because players of the biggest player base would be outraged that their army is suddenly not an army and is split to two.

Either way, its backlash from the marines, and as marines are about 50% of the community, they cant afford it.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Stux wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
I think you will see a Primaris only codex next. OG Marines will be 'index' bound pretty soon. GW just has to get the rest of the Primaris line out on the shelf first.

This conspiracy theory is running since before the SM codex is even out.
And it was debunked many times. there are NO plans to index the regular marines any time soon.

maybe in a few years. but not soon.

I don't think they are suggesting that oldscale marines are getting Indexed any time soon. I think the suggestion is that they might split Primaris off into a separate Codex if they get another wave of releases. Which is plausible, given how many Datasheets are already in the Marines Codex.

That could mean that oldscale armies are stuck with Chapter Approved for any improvements for a long time of course.

They can't do that without decoupling the primaris from the chapter tactics, and they can't decouple them.
As long they share "normarines" chapter tactics, having the two in two seperate books would cause as uproar for selling two books for what is essentially one army.
If they try to decouple, it would cause an uproar because players of the biggest player base would be outraged that their army is suddenly not an army and is split to two.

Either way, its backlash from the marines, and as marines are about 50% of the community, they cant afford it.

I'm less secptical of the idea. There's be whining online for sure, but if it was reasonably strong Marine players would get over it quickly.

GW over the last few years have shown they are willing to take big risks of they think it's the right decision for the long term.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Stux wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
I think you will see a Primaris only codex next. OG Marines will be 'index' bound pretty soon. GW just has to get the rest of the Primaris line out on the shelf first.

This conspiracy theory is running since before the SM codex is even out.
And it was debunked many times. there are NO plans to index the regular marines any time soon.

maybe in a few years. but not soon.

I don't think they are suggesting that oldscale marines are getting Indexed any time soon. I think the suggestion is that they might split Primaris off into a separate Codex if they get another wave of releases. Which is plausible, given how many Datasheets are already in the Marines Codex.

That could mean that oldscale armies are stuck with Chapter Approved for any improvements for a long time of course.

They can't do that without decoupling the primaris from the chapter tactics, and they can't decouple them.
As long they share "normarines" chapter tactics, having the two in two seperate books would cause as uproar for selling two books for what is essentially one army.
If they try to decouple, it would cause an uproar because players of the biggest player base would be outraged that their army is suddenly not an army and is split to two.

Either way, its backlash from the marines, and as marines are about 50% of the community, they cant afford it.

Plus, they're only beaten out in whining volume and intensity by Sisters of Battle players, but that's like saying an air raid klaxon is drowned out by the sound of a supernova.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Process wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
This is exactly the problem. Thinking Space Marines are the only army that has internal balance issues is just the most blinkered view possible. You mention Nids and Tau like half their dexes aren't just pointless inclusion competitively and that's just the two I'm thoroughly versed in. It's this stupid only child syndrome that gives SM players the negative rep they have.

Well thats not really true is it. The Tau and nid books are relatively internally balanced compared to marines and still offer the capability to run very diverse forces. There are a lot of effective list variations for both of those codexes floating around without having to rely on other books as a crutch.

Broodlord (Overcosted - legit needs a buff)
Old One Eye (Overcosted - probably a good thing - carnifex are OP)
Harpy (Not actaully that bad)
Haruspex (should hit on 3's)
Crone (not actaully that bad)
Lictor (not bad)
Shrikes (not bad - no models - why 5+ save?)
Skyslashers (Not bad just has no models)
Maleceptor (Not bad - can be used effectively - Just strange 3 attacks with 4+ to hit d6 damage weapon - strong psychic)
Pyrovores (Great against any CC army)
Tervigon (Legit trash - no arguement)
Zoanthropes (Actaully pretty good unit - spamming Neuros is better though)
Tyranid Prime (Overcosted but amazing buff for warriors - I use it in competitive games and it does well)
Tyrannocyte (Legit trash - you actually have scary stuff to put in it though)
Tyrant Guard (Mandatory for swarmlord...not really sure why this is on the list)
Toxicrine (Fantastic unit - try using it)
Dimachaeron (Weird rules - use Toxicrine instead)
Deathleaper (Was great in index then became trash - use index rules and you good)
Red Terror (Trash - agree)
Trygon Prime (Hummm - slgihtly more expensive trygon with better shooting attack and synapse...trygon better cause doesn't need the synapse but that doesn't make the prime worthless)
every single LOW (I'm not so sure how terrible the CC haridrule is - he has a nice flamer attack and brutal CC that is almost automatic turn 1 with swarmy. Not enough defense though - rest are trash - agreed)


and that's just being generous and only including utter garbage units and not including things that just completely outclassed like Biovores, or just useless things like Warriors, Venomthropes and Gargs that see zero play, even though that was the original statement.


SO MUCH INTERNAL BALANCE


"only MY army needs fixes!"

You are being a little harsh on a lot of these units - I responded in parenthesis.

Marine issues are much more drastic by like another scale shift. Practically everything on that list has a marine counterpart that is much worse. Warriors aren't trash BTW. They are a very good unit. Hive Gaurd are just OP.

My Pods are pissed because all of the dust thats collected on them this past year.

Make them free. Burn a CP to use one. Fixed

 zedsdead wrote:
My Pods are pissed because all of the dust thats collected on them this past year.

Make them free. Burn a CP to use one. Fixed

Exactly - I've suggested this many times. When armies can deep strike for CP - drop pods CAN NOT COST POINTS lol.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
My Pods are pissed because all of the dust thats collected on them this past year.

Make them free. Burn a CP to use one. Fixed

Exactly - I've suggested this many times. When armies can deep strike for CP - drop pods CAN NOT COST POINTS lol.

Or, get this - they CAN cost points, because they DON'T cost CP.

:thinking:

Marines get both worlds; Infiltrate for CP, or Drop Pods for points.

Not to mention other armies have drop pods (tyranids) do they get CP only ones as well?

 Billagio wrote:
Not to mention other armies have drop pods (tyranids) do they get CP only ones as well?

Tyranids have a Deep Strike stratagem I'm pretty sure.