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How about giving marines something like the +1W, and tac armor never gets worse save +5, termintors never get worse then +4, primaris get+5 with re-roll save of 1 and a +4 and re-roll 1s on the heavier suits?

No weapon change, maybe even a slight point increase.

Your armor proposal is functionally the same as giving them a 5+/4+ ect invulnerable save.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Your armor proposal is functionally the same as giving them a 5+/4+ ect invulnerable save.

At one point I was just gonna basically suggest that for GK.

PAGK get 5++ and terminators get a 4++
No math or anything behind it, it just feel like they should cause GK are so expensive

 Mmmpi wrote:
Your armor proposal is functionally the same as giving them a 5+/4+ ect invulnerable save.

Not really, the save wouldn't go puff vs psychic powers that stop invunerable saves from working. I just found out how stupid the hex chaos power is .

 Mmmpi wrote:
Eldar. A howling banshee can run so fast, her footsteps sound like rain.

I'm with you.

 Mmmpi wrote:
She can kill a full tactical squad of marines between heartbeats.

Lol no. A howling banshee is definitely superior to a tactical marine in 1v1 but not that superior.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Wraithlords can throw chimeras hard enough to cave in the hulls of land raiders. Not wraith knights, wraith lords.

Yep, agreed.

 Mmmpi wrote:
A striking scorpion can step out of the back of a speeding wave serpent, decapitate two marines with a chainsword, and step back in before it move away.

I don't even think that is physically possible. If they were moving at those speeds the G forces alone would tear their bodies apart. They are fast but they aren't the Flash.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Tau. Fire warriors get headshots for days. Dead marines everywhere, Tau reload.

I have never seen this happen in the lore, ever. In fact quite the opposite. Tau fire warriors are supposedly the equivalent of well-trained Imperial Guardsmen with better equipment.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Necrons are just functionally immune to weapons. If you do manage to hit something that would be a wound, well, it just self repairs and stands up again. So, no shooting Necrons with your marines.

No they aren't. They have been shown multiple times in the lore to be able to be damaged even by lasguns. They vanish back to their tombs to be repaired when the damage is too great to be auto-repaired.

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, three examples of how xenos kick the feces out of marines like playing kickball on the playground.

Three incredibly wrong examples with no lore justification and nothing to back them up.

For what it is worth, I am not arguing for marines to be buffed on the tabletop to how they actually are in lore. I was simply presenting a solution to the FACT that marines are underpowered right now that doesn't involve tac marines being 11pts. 2W and 2A is plenty fair, as long as it is accompanied by a moderate price increase. This makes marines CLOSER to what they actually are in the lore and makes them balanced on the tabletop.

Karol wrote:
How about giving marines something like the +1W, and tac armor never gets worse save +5, termintors never get worse then +4, primaris get+5 with re-roll save of 1 and a +4 and re-roll 1s on the heavier suits?

No weapon change, maybe even a slight point increase.

I'd be fine with that sort of thing conceptually, but it ends up making things annoying as far as rule bloat goes. We've increased it a lot as is with all the re-rolls. 8th was supposed to be simpler, but to me it feels like there's more to keep track of than in 5th. This sort of solution would help with the stat problem, but still be clunky for gameplay.

I think making marines 2+ armor and terminators 1+ would be simpler to deal with. This coupled with +1W would bring them closer to their old durability (relative to the now much higher firepower.)

Offense fixes would still be needed too. And points adjustments. I'm fine with them going back to costing more like in the past if they are decent again.

kombatwombat wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally always plug my idea of WS/BS2+ for all Terminator variants bar the GK troops.

...and I have always disagreed with you whenever you’ve brought it up.

That being said, why not both? A 3W/3A BS/WS2+ Terminator is something I could get behind. Hell, if you did that, you might actually get competitive Terminators. Which might break the internet, or at least the 40k part of it. When was the last time Terminators were competitive? When they had their 3+ on 2D6 save what, a quarter of a century ago?

Competitive Terminators is not something xenos 40k players want. It literally haunts their dreams...being beaten by poster boys of the game is a mortal fear for them.

I think the last time Terminators were competitive was when Chaos could run 3 Terminators with 3 Combi Meltas for 105 points. They didn't always do what you wanted them to do because of mishaps. But it was dirty cheap, and they made a decent distraction after they landed.

An interesting thought experiment would be, every time you suggest a Marine buff, also apply it to the exemplars of whatever you're giving Marines.

Marines are super durable. Want to make Marines W2? Cool. Necron Warriors are now also W2. Good luck mowing them down. Cap armor modifiers on them at -2? Cool, now Warriors always get a 6+ armor.

Marines are super skilled and/or have a great gun. So give their guns AP-1. Cool, now Shuriken and Pulse weapons drop Marines to a 4+ - without even rolling 6s!

Termies should be +1W, +1 Invuln. Great. Grots and Wracks are now +1W/+1FnP. Good luck killing them.

Bharring wrote:
An interesting thought experiment would be, every time you suggest a Marine buff, also apply it to the exemplars of whatever you're giving Marines.

Marines are super durable. Want to make Marines W2? Cool. Necron Warriors are now also W2. Good luck mowing them down. Cap armor modifiers on them at -2? Cool, now Warriors always get a 6+ armor.

Marines are super skilled and/or have a great gun. So give their guns AP-1. Cool, now Shuriken and Pulse weapons drop Marines to a 4+ - without even rolling 6s!

Termies should be +1W, +1 Invuln. Great. Grots and Wracks are now +1W/+1FnP. Good luck killing them.

You mean like how grotesques got that exact thing in the new codex.....

Then maybe Termies should get something like that, too?

I'm actually not against Marines getting buffed. They need some help. I just strongly disagree with a lot of suggestions that do come up.

(although my preferred way to buff Marines is actually nerf most non-basic weapons. I want more Boltguns, Splinter Rifles, Pulse, Las, and Shuriken in the game. That Brightlance and Lascannon and Melta Gun should be the specialists on the field.)

Then you haven't been reading any of the fluff for xenos. Between third ed and now there have been many pieces of fluff that have xenos doing exactly what I posted. Especially the eldar, and though I didn't give any examples, orks. The striking scorpion one is in CA (2000) or CA (2002). Then there's the various codexii, and novels.

The main point is, aside from IG, and at least one of the tyranid codexii, when an army is in the center of the story, or in their codex, they kick ass. And xenos, particularly eldar, and orcs, because they've been around for eight editions have plenty of fluff, that taken at face value make them broken. Nothing I posed isn't in fluff somewhere. The scorpion one is one of the more mild examples. But if a space marine can rip a turret off of a tank in a space marine novel, why can't an eldar with centuries of experience do similar feats of skill. BTW, if a scorpion can't do what was described, why would a space marine be able to move faster then the eye can follow? We're talking about a species that's militia makes marines seem as if they were moving in slow motion. Seriously.

Again, I have read all of this in the lore.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Competitive Terminators is not something xenos 40k players want. It literally haunts their dreams...being beaten by poster boys of the game is a mortal fear for them.

Compulsory space hulk for all!

Bharring wrote:
An interesting thought experiment would be, every time you suggest a Marine buff, also apply it to the exemplars of whatever you're giving Marines.

Marines are super durable. Want to make Marines W2? Cool. Necron Warriors are now also W2. Good luck mowing them down. Cap armor modifiers on them at -2? Cool, now Warriors always get a 6+ armor.

Marines are super skilled and/or have a great gun. So give their guns AP-1. Cool, now Shuriken and Pulse weapons drop Marines to a 4+ - without even rolling 6s!

Termies should be +1W, +1 Invuln. Great. Grots and Wracks are now +1W/+1FnP. Good luck killing them.

I think this might be oversimplifying things. You're also assuming that these units are all starting from a place of balance in the first place. It doesn't make sense to buff a unit that is doing fine because you buffed one that isn't.

My impression is that Necron warriors are actually fairly effective as it is because of their res abilities and -1 AP on their basic weapon. They also cost less than Marines. If Necron players are feeling that they need to be more durable, then maybe they should be looked at, but I'm not aware of there being a big issue with them currently because res protocols provides pretty good durability as long as the squad isn't wiped, and -1 AP on the guns is pretty good so large squads are not a hindrance.

All Marines have to rely on is their armor save in an edition where armor saves are worth less than they ever have been.

All of this goes back to the AP system being terrible, which IMO is the actual issue.

I had intended it as a thought experiment, not a rule of balance. Obviously, different units need different adjustments to fairly balance. Further, the same change on different units have a different impact. It's more to try to keep the suggestions within reason.

I've seen a lot of "AP5 went to AP0, should be AP-1, that'd fix marines" across different threads. It might sound right, but imagine if you did make AP5 go to AP-1. Marines would be one of the worst hit factions, despite it intending to buff them! Further, when buffing Marines, you also need to remember that your Marines will face the same changes too, as half the army are Marines. So now, half your games, you might as well have a 4+ on your Marines.

It's important to imagine how the change would impact you on the other side of the table. And when discussing Marines, it seems facing other Marines isn't usually considered, so just imagine facing the same change on some dirty Xenos.

As for units doing fine/not doing fine, Tacs are in a worse place than they've been on that spectrum for a while, but these threads exist even when Tacs are one of the better troops. It's only been a fairly recent development where the average troop (by units with rules, not by what you see at top tables) aren't worse than Tacs.

Actually Warriors are pretty bad as you're required to invest too much into them for little return. We love our Immortals for a reason but Warriors can at least do a Veil Bomb so that's nice I guess...

jcd386 wrote:

...
All Marines have to rely on is their armor save in an edition where armor saves are worth less than they ever have been.

All of this goes back to the AP system being terrible, which IMO is the actual issue.

I have to disagree with that last part. I remember how bad the old "AP 4 means your Fire Warriors/Guardsmen/Tyranid Warriors get no save at all, but my Marines get the full 3+" made things. The current AP system is a vast improvement on that mess.

With the old system, most people didn't even know or care what had AP4. Many Marines players would swear up and down they didn't have a single AP4 weapon in their army.

Bharring wrote:
With the old system, most people didn't even know or care what had AP4. Many Marines players would swear up and down they didn't have a single AP4 weapon in their army.

Because most of the AP4 weapons in the codex were pretty awful.

Bharring wrote:
With the old system, most people didn't even know or care what had AP4. Many Marines players would swear up and down they didn't have a single AP4 weapon in their army.

It's been a while, but as I recall most Marine players didn't have any AP 4 weapons in their armies and neither did anyone else. Outside of basic rifles if it wasn't AP 3 or better it didn't see the table.

...oh wait, you mean no AP 4 weapons in the Codex don't you.

I rarely ever saw Marines armies without Krak Grenades.

I meant army, not Codex. While Krak grenades weren't great, they certainly had them.

Bharring wrote:
I rarely ever saw Marines armies without Krak Grenades.

I meant army, not Codex. While Krak grenades weren't great, they certainly had them.

You mean the one-of they could throw in the phase?

I think you're really stretching as though it was used against 4+ armor opponents.

 Xenomancers wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally always plug my idea of WS/BS2+ for all Terminator variants bar the GK troops.

...and I have always disagreed with you whenever you’ve brought it up.

That being said, why not both? A 3W/3A BS/WS2+ Terminator is something I could get behind. Hell, if you did that, you might actually get competitive Terminators. Which might break the internet, or at least the 40k part of it. When was the last time Terminators were competitive? When they had their 3+ on 2D6 save what, a quarter of a century ago?

Competitive Terminators is not something xenos 40k players want. It literally haunts their dreams...being beaten by poster boys of the game is a mortal fear for them.

I like how if it can't beat Eldar & Tau then it isn't strong against Xenos. There are other races, my good sir

Are there? I mean really?

Well, if the point is whether players completely forget stuff with a 4+ save, then forgetting Krak has a 4+ is exactly the point.

Sure, most 4+ SM weapons didn't get used. Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers were great, but didn't have many worthwhile platforms. Heavy Bolters were meh, but sometimes got thrown in for free-ish. AutoCannons would have been nice if they were on the Heavy list for Devs, but weren't. It's easy to forget about all of these.

Now, Tau, Nids, and Craftworlders, they had oodles of AP4 weaponry.

As for why the AP4 weapons didn't get used? 3+ saves or vehicles ruled the edition. It was Marines or Serpents or Marines or Jetbikes or Marines++ or Ynari or Marines or WKs or Marines or Decurion almost all edition. Almost all of those were 3+ saves. So why bring AP4?

 Mmmpi wrote:

The main point is, aside from IG, and at least one of the tyranid codexii, when an army is in the center of the story, or in their codex, they kick ass. And xenos, particularly eldar, and orcs, because they've been around for eight editions have plenty of fluff, that taken at face value make them broken. Nothing I posed isn't in fluff somewhere. The scorpion one is one of the more mild examples. But if a space marine can rip a turret off of a tank in a space marine novel, why can't an eldar with centuries of experience do similar feats of skill. BTW, if a scorpion can't do what was described, why would a space marine be able to move faster then the eye can follow? We're talking about a species that's militia makes marines seem as if they were moving in slow motion. Seriously.

When I said "faster then the human eye can see" I didn't mean running, that would be stupid. I mean coarse reflexes like swinging a sword. Considering that even normal humans can move faster than the human eye can see UNAUGMENTED I don't think this is much of a stretch. Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5WjkI5FuP0 <----- Skip the intro and go to 0:55

As for ripping the turret off of a light tank, that isn't much of a stretch either. ~5,000 pounds of force could probably do it. Again, we have actual strongmen TODAY that can deadlift 1,000 pounds. Why is it such a stretch that a genetically modified human wearing a suit of power armor that greatly enhances his strength could do the same at 5,000 pounds?

It's COMPLETELY different than slaughtering 10 space marines with a sword within a fraction of a second, which would be impossible from a physics standpoint because the directional changes at that speed would rip an organic body apart.

I highly doubt that ANYWHERE in the lore there is a howling banshee slaughtering 10 marines in between heartbeats, or a firewarrior headshotting marines like it is nothing.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Garbage.

Tell us more about your SM list that uses proper tactical squads and wins.

Quantity has a quality all its own, is the basic theory. Lots of power armor, esp in cover, still takes a lot of effort to shift.

That's a cool theory. I'd love to run a marine heavy list that's tough to move (like I used to in previous editions.) But the theory doesn't hold up in practice. Because they still aren't THAT hard to shift. And they don't have enough firepower for it to matter either. And you won't always have the right amount or placement of cover to make this work. At the end of the day, marines in cover are still point for point less durable than lighter, cheaper infantry. And have WAY less firepower. And your opponent can use cover too.

For this to work, marines would have to have more firepower and durability. Which is why I'm advocating for them to have that.

Weellll, right off the bat I'm getting this:

Bolters at MEQ=
40 (shots) × .666 (hits) x .5 (wound) x .17 (failed save) x 13 (ppm) = 29.4

Vs. GEQ=
40 x .666 x .666 x .5 x .4 = 35.48

So per point, marines in cover are more durable than guard vs. Bolters. So there's one claim we can question. The quick counter is that higher power weapons will put the guardsmen ahead in durability, and I won't deny that. But I'll counter that with the fact that you shouldn't be firing those weapons at GEQ anyways, but at their vehicles, where I think the point return will generally be higher than firing at MEQ types. This is one of the things I tend to bank on in my armies. Not using high value vehicles tends to negate some points that the other army has spent of lascannon type things.

The other claim involves damage output, which is more complicated because of mixed weapons, available buffs, etc. But maybe someone can suggest some contending units there and we can see what we can do with it. Sorry, busy atm.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Garbage.

Tell us more about your SM list that uses proper tactical squads and wins.

Quantity has a quality all its own, is the basic theory. Lots of power armor, esp in cover, still takes a lot of effort to shift.

That's a cool theory. I'd love to run a marine heavy list that's tough to move (like I used to in previous editions.) But the theory doesn't hold up in practice. Because they still aren't THAT hard to shift. And they don't have enough firepower for it to matter either. And you won't always have the right amount or placement of cover to make this work. At the end of the day, marines in cover are still point for point less durable than lighter, cheaper infantry. And have WAY less firepower. And your opponent can use cover too.

For this to work, marines would have to have more firepower and durability. Which is why I'm advocating for them to have that.

Weellll, right off the bat I'm getting this:

Bolters at MEQ=
40 (shots) × .666 (hits) x .5 (wound) x .17 (failed save) x 13 (ppm) = 29.4

Vs. GEQ=
40 x .666 x .666 x .5 x .4 = 35.48

So per point, marines in cover are more durable than guard vs. Bolters. So there's one claim we can question. The quick counter is that higher power weapons will put the guardsmen ahead in durability, and I won't deny that. But I'll counter that with the fact that you shouldn't be firing those weapons at GEQ anyways, but at their vehicles, where I think the point return will generally be higher than firing at MEQ types. This is one of the things I tend to bank on in my armies. Not using high value vehicles tends to negate some points that the other army has spent of lascannon type things.

The other claim involves damage output, which is more complicated because of mixed weapons, available buffs, etc. But maybe someone can suggest some contending units there and we can see what we can do with it. Sorry, busy atm.

Your math is right. Cover is odd in that it helps you more the better your save is, which seems unintuitive.

I disagree that AP 1 weapons like heavy bolters and assault cannons aren't for shooting at guardsmen. They are pretty clearly designed for killing infantry, and aren't particularly good at killing vehicles.

Also because Marines cost so much more than guardsmen, if argue that they should be more resistant per point against bolters and against lasguns out of cover, because as soon as any AP is involved there is no hope of them being comparable anymore.

Once you take morale into effect I believe marines have the upper hand in the open.


Also, keep in mind that most cheap infantry have either a worse save than guardsmen, and/or are more points.

Assuming basic bolter marines at rapid fire range thats 260 points of marines worth of shooting to kill 35 points of guardsmen.
Or as a percentage thats a rate of return of 13.5%

260 points buys you a lot of guardsmen (65 to be precise) even at 5ppm thats 52 guardsmen
That is 116 lasgun shots or 92 lasgun shots point for point plus 7 laspistol and 6 laspistols respectively.
123 x.5x.333x.17x13= 45.3 points of marines dead
99x.5x.333x.17x13= 36.4 points of marines dead

In the open things get worse
123x.5x.333x.333x13= 88.7 points of marines dead
123x.5x.5x.666x4= 81.918 points of dead guardsmen.
99x.5x.333x.333x13= 71 points of marines dead
99x.5x.5x.666x5= 82 points of 5ppm guard.

Marines with bolter do
40x.666x.666x.666x4=47.3 points of dead guards men.
40x.666x.5x.333x13=57.6 points of dead marines.
That says that something is far from balanced