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2018/07/02 01:23:16
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
jcd386 wrote: All this talk of fluff is largely irrelevant. All of the factions just need to work in the game while loosely reflecting the fluff if possible. The exact details aren't particularly important as long as the game is balanced and playable.
"Anyways, my original argument was against someone saying that 2W marines was inconsistent with the lore because "marines aren't that tough". My response was basically "yes they are" and listed a bunch of lore examples that I thought were actually pretty plausible."
Sure, and then the argument continued on for a few pages and I commented on it's pointlessness.
Marine units are at best boring and unflavorful, and at worst not competitive. Some of the issues could be fixed with pure points changes in CA. Others would probably require a rewrite to give the many bland units special rules and whatnot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 01:23:53
2018/07/02 01:24:53
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Mmmpi wrote: 3rd ed eldar codex, chapter approved 2000 and 2002, any novel where the main character is an Eldar.
Done.
I mean an actual quote please. I've read a lot of lore where the eldar clown on guardsmen pretty hard, but space marines are a different beast entirely. As I said before, killing 10 in a fraction of a second literally defies the laws of physics. This is 40k, not an anime, we try to keep to suspension of disbelief here.
You need to keep your suspension of disbelief in a setting where intersteller travel goes through actual hell, psychic powers exist, a swarm of intersteller locust can eat all life on a planet in a few days/weeks, but it's really good sword skills that do it in for you?
jcd386 wrote: All this talk of fluff is largely irrelevant. All of the factions just need to work in the game while loosely reflecting the fluff if possible. The exact details aren't particularly important as long as the game is balanced and playable.
"Anyways, my original argument was against someone saying that 2W marines was inconsistent with the lore because "marines aren't that tough". My response was basically "yes they are" and listed a bunch of lore examples that I thought were actually pretty plausible."
This really has gone on far enough. The lore is far to OP for just about every faction to be taking it as anything more then just a guideline for unit organization.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/02 01:34:19
2018/07/02 02:48:05
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
You need to keep your suspension of disbelief in a setting where intersteller travel goes through actual hell, psychic powers exist, a swarm of intersteller locust can eat all life on a planet in a few days/weeks, but it's really good sword skills that do it in for you?
Yes. Because speculation on technology that doesn't exist yet is different then breaking very observable laws of physics in a really stupid anime-esque manner. I'm still waiting on that quote.
Marine units are at best boring and unflavorful, and at worst not competitive. Some of the issues could be fixed with pure points changes in CA. Others would probably require a rewrite to give the many bland units special rules and whatnot.
In order for marines to be pointed down to what they are really worth with their awful tac marine statline they would be comparable to sisters. It makes better sense to buff marine statlines instead of reducing their points.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/02 02:53:10
2018/07/02 03:15:48
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
jcd386 wrote: All this talk of fluff is largely irrelevant. All of the factions just need to work in the game while loosely reflecting the fluff if possible. The exact details aren't particularly important as long as the game is balanced and playable.
Space Marine whine threads always inevitably devolve into fluff debates, as when you pull away the veil, it's the core reason driving the demand for buffs. That's why some people in here are literally against other armies getting a fix to their crappy units after Space Marine's get theirs - only Space Marine's deserve this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 03:48:00
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/07/02 04:32:24
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Space Marine whine threads always inevitably devolve into fluff debates, as when you pull away the veil, it's the core reason driving the demand for buffs. That's why some people in here are literally against other armies getting a fix to their crappy units after Space Marine's get theirs - only Space Marine's deserve this.
I mean, are you trying to argue that space marines (outside of a couple of viable builds) aren't underpowered right now? Because they kind of are. Space marine whining is just heard the most because they are the largest portion of the playerbase.
2018/07/02 04:40:01
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
You need to keep your suspension of disbelief in a setting where intersteller travel goes through actual hell, psychic powers exist, a swarm of intersteller locust can eat all life on a planet in a few days/weeks, but it's really good sword skills that do it in for you?
Yes. Because speculation on technology that doesn't exist yet is different then breaking very observable laws of physics in a really stupid anime-esque manner. I'm still waiting on that quote.
Marine units are at best boring and unflavorful, and at worst not competitive. Some of the issues could be fixed with pure points changes in CA. Others would probably require a rewrite to give the many bland units special rules and whatnot.
In order for marines to be pointed down to what they are really worth with their awful tac marine statline they would be comparable to sisters. It makes better sense to buff marine statlines instead of reducing their points.
You're not going to get a quote because my books are all in a storage container on a different contenent. I've already said where you can look, and that's the best I can do. Having said that, 40K is nothing but anime sillyness, just without moe characters, or big eyes, or the humor that's usually found in it. If you're going to insist on using real physics as your bludgeon, how about applying the square cube law to tyrannids or titans? Whoops!
Next, marines certainly shouldn't cost as much as sisters do now. I play sisters. Only having T3 really hurts us. T4 is actually a huge benefit. Just not as much when people are desperate enough to fire massed S8-9 weapons with decent AP, or massed plasma. Marines do fine against other weapons, like Hvy bolters, grenades, bolters, or lasguns.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you were to buff marines, I'd buff weapons like bolters, and bolt pistols. Not just for them, but for all armies that use those weapons. (they tend to suffer the same weaknesses). The stat line itself is perfectly fine. In my experience, marines only have trouble against massed special weapons, but do fine against most standard ones.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/02 04:46:07
2018/07/02 04:57:05
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Space Marine whine threads always inevitably devolve into fluff debates, as when you pull away the veil, it's the core reason driving the demand for buffs. That's why some people in here are literally against other armies getting a fix to their crappy units after Space Marine's get theirs - only Space Marine's deserve this.
I mean, are you trying to argue that space marines (outside of a couple of viable builds) aren't underpowered right now? Because they kind of are. Space marine whining is just heard the most because they are the largest portion of the playerbase.
No, I'm saying that some people in this thread literally said that AFTER Space Marines are buffed and units are fixed, no OTHER ARMY should get the same treatment. Cause Space Marines.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/07/02 05:10:03
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Space Marine whine threads always inevitably devolve into fluff debates, as when you pull away the veil, it's the core reason driving the demand for buffs. That's why some people in here are literally against other armies getting a fix to their crappy units after Space Marine's get theirs - only Space Marine's deserve this.
I mean, are you trying to argue that space marines (outside of a couple of viable builds) aren't underpowered right now? Because they kind of are. Space marine whining is just heard the most because they are the largest portion of the playerbase.
No, I'm saying that some people in this thread literally said that AFTER Space Marines are buffed and units are fixed, no OTHER ARMY should get the same treatment. Cause Space Marines.
other then Marines are there any other armies whose table top performance just doesn't feel like it matches the fluff?most space marine players who want revisions to marines I think WANT an army thats out numbered most of the time but manages toi by dint of "being awesome" make up for it. giving every army a buff defeats the point
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/07/02 05:10:16
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
If a bolter blows off a Guardsmans arm, that is 2 guardsmen dead - the one that was hit and the first one that thought of running.
If a bolter blows off a Marines arm, that marine is out of the battle but will be back tomorrow with a shiny bionic.
If a bolter blows off an Orks arm, he will tear you head off with his other arm and after the battle - assuming something else doesn't kill him - get a bionik.
If you say Orks durability is represented by T4 well so is a Space Marines.
My preference is raise Guard to 5pts each and do something about CP sharing.
2018/07/02 05:15:52
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Tygre wrote: If marines get 2 wounds so should Orks.
If a bolter blows off a Guardsmans arm, that is 2 guardsmen dead - the one that was hit and the first one that thought of running.
If a bolter blows off a Marines arm, that marine is out of the battle but will be back tomorrow with a shiny bionic.
If a bolter blows off an Orks arm, he will tear you head off with his other arm and after the battle - assuming something else doesn't kill him - get a bionik.
If you say Orks durability is represented by T4 well so is a Space Marines.
My preference is raise Guard to 5pts each and do something about CP sharing.
Yes but marines need buffs and ork boyz don't. If ork boyz needed buffs perhaps the 2W might be something to look at. But, again, they don't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: Having said that, 40K is nothing but anime sillyness, just without moe characters, or big eyes, or the humor that's usually found in it.
No.
Mmmpi wrote: If you're going to insist on using real physics as your bludgeon, how about applying the square cube law to tyrannids or titans? Whoops!
Tyranid chitin is bio-genetically engineered to support their massive frames. Tyranid hive ships can be so large because they exist in an environment without gravity and move at sublight speeds, and thus the square-cube law is meaningless.
Titans are constructed of adamantium, a substance stated in the lore to be many times more durable then steel.
Those two examples you gave have in-lore justifications for why they work when they normally wouldn't. Your mythical banshee that can somehow move sizable fractions of the speed of light does not. It's all about suspension of disbelief.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/02 05:27:35
2018/07/02 05:34:26
Subject: Re:Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
I would just like to point out that I would be totally cool with 2W ork boyz*, 2W necron warriors and any other similarly tough units. Maybe even 2W sisters. Tau stealth suits went from T3 1W to T4 2W and it suddenly made them very useful even at 28 pts. If a stealth suit warrants 2W I think power armor deserves 2W as well.
The transition to 8th added damage stats and AP modifiers, both of which reduced the value of multi-wounds and good saves. So it seems fair enough to me.
Changing points is obviously the easiest fix, but I just like the feel of 2W marines.
*It also helps differentiate them from nids, as far as basic fodder goes.
2018/07/02 05:56:24
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Space Marine whine threads always inevitably devolve into fluff debates, as when you pull away the veil, it's the core reason driving the demand for buffs. That's why some people in here are literally against other armies getting a fix to their crappy units after Space Marine's get theirs - only Space Marine's deserve this.
I mean, are you trying to argue that space marines (outside of a couple of viable builds) aren't underpowered right now? Because they kind of are. Space marine whining is just heard the most because they are the largest portion of the playerbase.
No, I'm saying that some people in this thread literally said that AFTER Space Marines are buffed and units are fixed, no OTHER ARMY should get the same treatment. Cause Space Marines.
I don't believe you.
I wanna see a quote from someone here who said no other faction should be looked at after space marines get an "update". To even say that after space marines get changed slightly that the presses are gonna stop is Ludacris. But on top of that I always see you complaining about space marine players in threads like this. Frankly you must get off to complaining about them, cause if I hated space marine players like you I'd steer clear of these threads or just not even play 40k.
2018/07/02 06:00:19
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Tygre wrote: If marines get 2 wounds so should Orks.
If a bolter blows off a Guardsmans arm, that is 2 guardsmen dead - the one that was hit and the first one that thought of running.
If a bolter blows off a Marines arm, that marine is out of the battle but will be back tomorrow with a shiny bionic.
If a bolter blows off an Orks arm, he will tear you head off with his other arm and after the battle - assuming something else doesn't kill him - get a bionik.
If you say Orks durability is represented by T4 well so is a Space Marines.
My preference is raise Guard to 5pts each and do something about CP sharing.
Yes but marines need buffs and ork boyz don't. If ork boyz needed buffs perhaps the 2W might be something to look at. But, again, they don't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: Having said that, 40K is nothing but anime sillyness, just without moe characters, or big eyes, or the humor that's usually found in it.
No.
Mmmpi wrote: If you're going to insist on using real physics as your bludgeon, how about applying the square cube law to tyrannids or titans? Whoops!
Tyranid chitin is bio-genetically engineered to support their massive frames. Tyranid hive ships can be so large because they exist in an environment without gravity and move at sublight speeds, and thus the square-cube law is meaningless.
Titans are constructed of adamantium, a substance stated in the lore to be many times more durable then steel.
Those two examples you gave have in-lore justifications for why they work when they normally wouldn't. Your mythical banshee that can somehow move sizable fractions of the speed of light does not. It's all about suspension of disbelief.
The examples I gave have in game lore about why they work. Eldar are just that fast. I don't care if you disbelieve. The writers say your wrong on the fluff aspect. But that doesn't matter, since that fluff for all armies (except IG, and frequently tyranids) would be overpowered on the table anyway.
But as I've said, amp up marines's hitting power. They're already tough against anything that wasn't made to kill heavy infantry, or tanks.
2018/07/02 06:01:20
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Space Marine whine threads always inevitably devolve into fluff debates, as when you pull away the veil, it's the core reason driving the demand for buffs. That's why some people in here are literally against other armies getting a fix to their crappy units after Space Marine's get theirs - only Space Marine's deserve this.
I mean, are you trying to argue that space marines (outside of a couple of viable builds) aren't underpowered right now? Because they kind of are. Space marine whining is just heard the most because they are the largest portion of the playerbase.
No, I'm saying that some people in this thread literally said that AFTER Space Marines are buffed and units are fixed, no OTHER ARMY should get the same treatment. Cause Space Marines.
other then Marines are there any other armies whose table top performance just doesn't feel like it matches the fluff?most space marine players who want revisions to marines I think WANT an army thats out numbered most of the time but manages toi by dint of "being awesome" make up for it. giving every army a buff defeats the point
This post just shows zero understanding of how the game works, and is exactly what I'm talking about.
Buffing the weak units in other armies will not change that book's playstyle. Making Tervigon's playable, or Drop Spores viable, or fixing our CCMC's for example, will not suddenly turn Tyranid into Bug Marines. Improving Crisis Suits in the Tau codex, making the Kroot units less of a pointless addition, and improving the unseen units and redundant suits for example, will not allow the army to do anything it hasn't been able to do iconically in the past.
If your goal is to make Marines fit the fluff by locking every other army into the select few models that support the narrative you depict, then sorry - its time to understand you are playing the game and not reading the fluff.
If you want balance in the SM book fine, fighting against other armies having a balanced book too is exactly why SM players are known as whiners.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 06:02:10
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/07/02 06:01:29
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Space Marine whine threads always inevitably devolve into fluff debates, as when you pull away the veil, it's the core reason driving the demand for buffs. That's why some people in here are literally against other armies getting a fix to their crappy units after Space Marine's get theirs - only Space Marine's deserve this.
I mean, are you trying to argue that space marines (outside of a couple of viable builds) aren't underpowered right now? Because they kind of are. Space marine whining is just heard the most because they are the largest portion of the playerbase.
No, I'm saying that some people in this thread literally said that AFTER Space Marines are buffed and units are fixed, no OTHER ARMY should get the same treatment. Cause Space Marines.
I don't believe you.
I wanna see a quote from someone here who said no other faction should be looked at after space marines get an "update". To even say that after space marines get changed slightly that the presses are gonna stop is Ludacris. But on top of that I always see you complaining about space marine players in threads like this. Frankly you must get off to complaining about them, cause if I hated space marine players like you I'd steer clear of these threads or just not even play 40k.
I've seen it said. I don't think it's as common as implied, but it does happen. Also, I don't have a quote handy.
2018/07/02 06:25:45
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
I wanna see a quote from someone here who said no other faction should be looked at after space marines get an "update". To even say that after space marines get changed slightly that the presses are gonna stop is Ludacris.
Sure. Here's a link to me saying I think SM should be first in-line to recieve fixes and buffs in the second wave of codexes, once all armies have a book:
SHUPPET wrote: In order of priority for the second wave of dexes I think SM first to set a new baseline for Marines though and then follow it up with GK who need that fix the most
But that wasn't enough for everyone. Here's a quote of the response my post got from OP of this thread, saying nope, only SM should get a balance update, and their should not be a second wave of dexes for other armies:
Process wrote: Im talking about when all books are out, taking a look at how the game and factions play and recognizing the already apparent fact that the marine book/books are on a completely different level right now and that as the first few codexes of the new edition its not the end of the world to release a revised edition of these codexes to bring them on par.
Not a second wave, most armies don't need it.
Heres a link to my response calling this outlandish, and his response doubling down on it, just in case this first quote was too ambiguous enough for you:
SHUPPET wrote: This is exactly the problem. Thinking Space Marines are the only army that has internal balance issues is just the most blinkered view possible. You mention Nids and Tau like half their dexes aren't just pointless inclusion competitively and that's just the two I'm thoroughly versed in. It's this stupid only child syndrome that gives SM players the negative rep they have.
Well thats not really true is it. The Tau and nid books are relatively internally balanced compared to marines and still offer the capability to run very diverse forces. There are a lot of effective list variations for both of those codexes floating around without having to rely on other books as a crutch.
Here's a link to Xenomancer's post also arguing against me saying that is outlandish:
No, I'm saying that some people in this thread literally said that AFTER Space Marines are buffed and units are fixed, no OTHER ARMY should get the same treatment. Cause Space Marines.
other then Marines are there any other armies whose table top performance just doesn't feel like it matches the fluff?most space marine players who want revisions to marines I think WANT an army thats out numbered most of the time but manages toi by dint of "being awesome" make up for it. giving every army a buff defeats the point
So yeah. You're right, it is ludicrous. Yet his is absolutely what some people are saying, and I haven't made an unfair statement in here yet.
fraser1191 wrote: But on top of that I always see you complaining about space marine players in threads like this. Frankly you must get off to complaining about them, cause if I hated space marine players like you I'd steer clear of these threads or just not even play 40k.
I play a marine army. I'm a MASSIVE Marine fan, they are one of my favorite things in sci-fi. I main Terran in Starcraft simply on the strength of how much I love Marines. Why would I avoid threads about my own miniatures just because a large portion of the community who play the same models are incapable of stopping whining about them? I shut down the same gak when I see it said about Nids too. Weirdly enough, you only see me having to say it often of SM players. Wonder why that is? Hmmmm, with threads like these, and the quotes I just showed I can't possibly imagine why. You don't have to like the reality, but the facts still don't change that this is what's being said.
Plus, half the times this gak comes up, it's not in SM threads anyway. It's in a thread about a completely unrelated topic that got shifted into an SM balance whine. I just recently had to mute Karol's posting in the rule of 3 debate where everything somehow becomes a debate about how GW hates GK.
This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2018/07/02 06:41:35
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/07/02 06:33:28
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Space Marine whine threads always inevitably devolve into fluff debates, as when you pull away the veil, it's the core reason driving the demand for buffs. That's why some people in here are literally against other armies getting a fix to their crappy units after Space Marine's get theirs - only Space Marine's deserve this.
I mean, are you trying to argue that space marines (outside of a couple of viable builds) aren't underpowered right now? Because they kind of are. Space marine whining is just heard the most because they are the largest portion of the playerbase.
No, I'm saying that some people in this thread literally said that AFTER Space Marines are buffed and units are fixed, no OTHER ARMY should get the same treatment. Cause Space Marines.
other then Marines are there any other armies whose table top performance just doesn't feel like it matches the fluff?most space marine players who want revisions to marines I think WANT an army thats out numbered most of the time but manages toi by dint of "being awesome" make up for it. giving every army a buff defeats the point
Pretty much all of the fluff, especially in the codices, makes a point of making their faction look awesome. Hell, in the Harlequin codex it talks about some random Solitaire who murders his way through an entire Imperial Guard regiment (and then some) without any issue. Tyranids adapt their biology like the Borg to render your resistance futile. Grey Knights actually *win* fights. Part of understanding that it’s a representative game is some willingness to accept that practicalities of the game dictate deviations from the fluff.
It does seem like SM players are definitely the loudest about this, and not necessarily because they’re the most numerous players. I think it’s a function of so much of the lore being written from the SM perspective, so people tend to want to identify with that, and it doesn’t feel good if the super awesome genetically-enhanced warrior badasses you’re identifying with are only average. And I think those of us who focus more on other factions accept how silly that is becuse it’s literally more alien to us. I mean, imagine how silly I’d sound if I were here complaining that my poor Craftworlders didn’t get an bunch of pregame buffs and knowledge because we’re so good at seeing the future.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/02 06:37:35
2018/07/02 06:38:36
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
I wanna see a quote from someone here who said no other faction should be looked at after space marines get an "update". To even say that after space marines get changed slightly that the presses are gonna stop is Ludacris.
Sure. Here's a link to me saying I think SM should be first in-line to recieve fixes and buffs in the second wave of codexes, once all armies have a book:
SHUPPET wrote: In order of priority for the second wave of dexes I think SM first to set a new baseline for Marines though and then follow it up with GK who need that fix the most
But that wasn't enough for everyone. Here's a quote of the response my post got from OP of this thread, saying nope, only SM should get a balance update, and their should not be a second wave of dexes for other armies:
Process wrote: Im talking about when all books are out, taking a look at how the game and factions play and recognizing the already apparent fact that the marine book/books are on a completely different level right now and that as the first few codexes of the new edition its not the end of the world to release a revised edition of these codexes to bring them on par.
Not a second wave, most armies don't need it.
Heres a link to my response calling this outlandish, and his response doubling down on it, just in case this first quote was too ambiguous enough for you:
SHUPPET wrote: This is exactly the problem. Thinking Space Marines are the only army that has internal balance issues is just the most blinkered view possible. You mention Nids and Tau like half their dexes aren't just pointless inclusion competitively and that's just the two I'm thoroughly versed in. It's this stupid only child syndrome that gives SM players the negative rep they have.
Well thats not really true is it. The Tau and nid books are relatively internally balanced compared to marines and still offer the capability to run very diverse forces. There are a lot of effective list variations for both of those codexes floating around without having to rely on other books as a crutch.
Here's a link to Xenomancer's post also arguing against me saying that is outlandish:
No, I'm saying that some people in this thread literally said that AFTER Space Marines are buffed and units are fixed, no OTHER ARMY should get the same treatment. Cause Space Marines.
other then Marines are there any other armies whose table top performance just doesn't feel like it matches the fluff?most space marine players who want revisions to marines I think WANT an army thats out numbered most of the time but manages toi by dint of "being awesome" make up for it. giving every army a buff defeats the point
So yeah. You're right, it is ludicrous. Yet his is absolutely what some people are saying, and I haven't made an unfair statement in here yet.
fraser1191 wrote: But on top of that I always see you complaining about space marine players in threads like this. Frankly you must get off to complaining about them, cause if I hated space marine players like you I'd steer clear of these threads or just not even play 40k.
I play a marine army. I'm a MASSIVE Marine fan, they are one of my favorite things in sci-fi. I main Terran in Starcraft simply on the strength of how much I love Marines. Why would I avoid threads about my own miniatures just because a large portion of the community who play the same models are incapable of stopping whining about them? I shut down the same gak when I see it said about Nids too. Weirdly enough, you only see me having to say it often of SM players. Wonder why that is? Hmmmm, with threads like these, and the quotes I just showed I can't possibly imagine why. You don't have to like the reality, but the facts still don't change that this is what's being said.
Plus, half the times this gak comes up, it's not in SM threads anyway. It's in a thread about a completely unrelated topic that got shifted into an SM balance whine. I just recently had to mute Karol's posting in the rule of 3 debate where everything somehow becomes a debate about how GW hates GK.
Honestly I think I'm just upset all this bickering goes nowhere, it's a constant circle of threads like this hitting 40 or so pages then die off for a month then another "X marines" thread pops up and so on.
Regardless of how marines get fixed it's probably not going have anything to do with rules and they're just gonna get a points cut and become a pseudo horde army. Which I'd say most marine players are against.
Marines lost the race to the bottom and if they aren't fixed in CA they're gonna be drowned out by soon to be 8pt sisters
2018/07/02 07:19:35
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
I wanna see a quote from someone here who said no other faction should be looked at after space marines get an "update". To even say that after space marines get changed slightly that the presses are gonna stop is Ludacris.
Sure. Here's a link to me saying I think SM should be first in-line to recieve fixes and buffs in the second wave of codexes, once all armies have a book:
SHUPPET wrote: In order of priority for the second wave of dexes I think SM first to set a new baseline for Marines though and then follow it up with GK who need that fix the most
But that wasn't enough for everyone. Here's a quote of the response my post got from OP of this thread, saying nope, only SM should get a balance update, and their should not be a second wave of dexes for other armies:
Process wrote: Im talking about when all books are out, taking a look at how the game and factions play and recognizing the already apparent fact that the marine book/books are on a completely different level right now and that as the first few codexes of the new edition its not the end of the world to release a revised edition of these codexes to bring them on par.
Not a second wave, most armies don't need it.
Heres a link to my response calling this outlandish, and his response doubling down on it, just in case this first quote was too ambiguous enough for you:
SHUPPET wrote: This is exactly the problem. Thinking Space Marines are the only army that has internal balance issues is just the most blinkered view possible. You mention Nids and Tau like half their dexes aren't just pointless inclusion competitively and that's just the two I'm thoroughly versed in. It's this stupid only child syndrome that gives SM players the negative rep they have.
Well thats not really true is it. The Tau and nid books are relatively internally balanced compared to marines and still offer the capability to run very diverse forces. There are a lot of effective list variations for both of those codexes floating around without having to rely on other books as a crutch.
Here's a link to Xenomancer's post also arguing against me saying that is outlandish:
No, I'm saying that some people in this thread literally said that AFTER Space Marines are buffed and units are fixed, no OTHER ARMY should get the same treatment. Cause Space Marines.
other then Marines are there any other armies whose table top performance just doesn't feel like it matches the fluff?most space marine players who want revisions to marines I think WANT an army thats out numbered most of the time but manages toi by dint of "being awesome" make up for it. giving every army a buff defeats the point
So yeah. You're right, it is ludicrous. Yet his is absolutely what some people are saying, and I haven't made an unfair statement in here yet.
fraser1191 wrote: But on top of that I always see you complaining about space marine players in threads like this. Frankly you must get off to complaining about them, cause if I hated space marine players like you I'd steer clear of these threads or just not even play 40k.
I play a marine army. I'm a MASSIVE Marine fan, they are one of my favorite things in sci-fi. I main Terran in Starcraft simply on the strength of how much I love Marines. Why would I avoid threads about my own miniatures just because a large portion of the community who play the same models are incapable of stopping whining about them? I shut down the same gak when I see it said about Nids too. Weirdly enough, you only see me having to say it often of SM players. Wonder why that is? Hmmmm, with threads like these, and the quotes I just showed I can't possibly imagine why. You don't have to like the reality, but the facts still don't change that this is what's being said.
Plus, half the times this gak comes up, it's not in SM threads anyway. It's in a thread about a completely unrelated topic that got shifted into an SM balance whine. I just recently had to mute Karol's posting in the rule of 3 debate where everything somehow becomes a debate about how GW hates GK.
Honestly I think I'm just upset all this bickering goes nowhere, it's a constant circle of threads like this hitting 40 or so pages then die off for a month then another "X marines" thread pops up and so on.
Regardless of how marines get fixed it's probably not going have anything to do with rules and they're just gonna get a points cut and become a pseudo horde army. Which I'd say most marine players are against.
Marines lost the race to the bottom and if they aren't fixed in CA they're gonna be drowned out by soon to be 8pt sisters
I can dig it. I'm past the point of frustration, I'm more just exhausted by it all now. Rest assured for every post I do make there's like nine more I thought better of. It just bothers me than gw CANNOT look to our communities for feedback if they ever wanted to, discussion is so unbelievably close minded from some people. Sometimes it feels like for everything you give these people, it just gets thrown back. Like, I literally said SM should be first in line to get fixed in the next wave of codexes, and hopefully they fix all the problems and the statlines so that it can transfer upwards throughout the year to other dexes like GK. And it just gets thrown back with "No, we'll take our buffs but NOBODY ELSE can get fixes" and a bunch of people either agreeing with it, and for all the arguing SM players are doing, not a single one speaking out against that. Like wth? I think it's something to do with guys in power suits, because this attitude is most prevalent with SM and then followed up by Tau, who are probably only less vocal because of the smaller community.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/07/02 07:47:01
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
You're not going to get a quote because my books are all in a storage container on a different contenent. I've already said where you can look, and that's the best I can do.
You know what? I’m calling your bluff. I am straight up calling you a liar, or at best misinformed. I am saying your claim that a Howling Banshee can kill a squad of Marines in a fraction of a second is a blatant falsehood that has zero textual basis.
Prove me wrong! I’ll gladly admit I’m wrong and a fool and a terrible person if you can just find a single official source - even an outdated and non-canonical one - of a Howling Banshee pulling off that or something similar. Making vague references to an ill-defined source and saying ‘it’s out there, trust me, I just can’t prove it right now because xyz’ isn’t good enough.
There’s a pretty low bar for evidence on this forum, but your claims fall short of even that poor standard.
2018/07/02 08:09:41
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
My personal gripe about marines is (CSM /tac Marines) that they should be decent allrounders, yet they aren't equipped for it.
You chose either Bolters or a melee weapon, some editions back marines and CSM had both standard equipped, that made them actual flexibel in their approach, CSM doubly so because marks were doing stuff back then.
I also do belive that pts. wise they only need a slight reduction -1 to 2 pts less. Most CSM players would still rely on cultists but marines then would have a niche called flexibility.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2018/07/02 08:10:02
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
SHUPPET wrote: "No, we'll take our buffs but NOBODY ELSE can get fixes" and a bunch of people either agreeing with it, and for all the arguing SM players are doing, not a single one speaking out against that.
Loath as I am to butt heads with you over this particular issue once again, do you really see a predominance of people saying ‘Marines should get a second pass BUT NOBODY ELSE’? Take out that one poster whose reputation precedes them, and it’s really just the OP. I agree with you that the OP saying that is wrong, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that most - or even many - Marine players have a similar opinion.
Another way of considering it is to look at the same complaint from different perspectives. For instance, the complaint
“Marines are underpowered and don’t play how one would expect. GW should take a second look at their Codex.’
elicits “If Marines get a second look, other Codexes should get another look too. It’s only fair.” Which is perfectly reasonable. None of the books are perfect, a second pass would help them all to varying degrees, and the Marine book is the oldest, most popular and one of the very worst, so it being first in line makes sense. But if you phrase the question as
“Marines are underpowered and don’t play how one would expect. GW should give them a 20% buff across the board so they can compete with the newer books.”
then the response “If Marines get a 20% buff, the other Codexes should too. It’s only fair.” is just...
2018/07/02 08:12:09
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Not a wild claim. I've read it in the fluff. Not my problem you didn't. I don't see anyone supporting their marine fantasies with anything either though. So, I guess it takes one to know one?
2018/07/02 08:47:33
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Can't find the passages Mmmpi is referencing, but I did find this in the Eldar Codex from 2E. It is from the point of view of a Guardian:
Codex: Eldar, 1994 - pp66-67 wrote:
...In a movement too fast for a human eye to follow, he whirled, bringing his weapon to bear on the source of the noise. For a moment he tensed, then realised that it was another Eldar squad - Warp Spiders.
[...]The air shimmered and a weird four-armed figure materialised from the empty air beside the Chaos Marine. Before the enemy could respond he was entangled in a spinning web of monfilament wire. All features were temporarily obscured in the glistening silver haze, then the Warp Spider made a tugging gesture with the hand that held the monofilaments, and the Chaos Marine simply fell apart, cut into tiny pieces by the incredibly sharp edges of the mono-filament weapon.
Not the best, but from the sounds of the prose above, the Chaos marine didn't even have time to turn and regard his foe before the Warp Spider diced him, so at least the Aspect Warriors have very quick reactions - to appear, fire and with a slight tug eliminate a Marine before he can react.
Likewise, there's this:
Make of that what you will, as you are want to do
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 08:54:45
It never ends well
2018/07/02 08:54:16
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Mmmpi wrote: Not a wild claim. I've read it in the fluff. Not my problem you didn't. I don't see anyone supporting their marine fantasies with anything either though. So, I guess it takes one to know one?
A being with a human++ physique killing a squad of Marines in a fraction of a second isn’t wild?
Edit: Also, there is a lore justification - cutting a Marine in half won’t stop him attacking you. Cut off his arm an he keeps hitting you with the other one without missing a beat. Shoot him in the heart or lungs and his backup ones take over. Give him a wound that would make him bleed out, he clots and forms scar tissue instantly. Of all basic-troop-shaped things in the game, they are kind of the leading contender for having two wounds.
Marines are not still attacking you after being cut in half.
Fallen Angels, p325-326 wrote:
“The Librarian hurled himself to the side just as the creature lunged into the squad’s midst with the force of a runaway train.
With a shout, Zahariel spun to face the beast as the queen gathered herself together like a coiling spring and lashed out again, this time catching Gideon and two of the corpses in its wide mandibles. The curved pincers snapped shut like a giant scissors. The two corpses were bisected at once; Gideon’s armour resisted a half-second longer before giving way as well.
A bolt pistol barked; Gideon, lying in a pool of his own blood, had reloaded his weapon and was snapping careful shots at the worm’s eyes.
*shrug*
I made a claim about ‘marine fantasies’, somebody refuted it, I responded with a direct quote from an official GW book, including the page reference. Regardless of whether you want to argue that’s an outlier case in the lore or whatever, I made a claim, I was challenged, I backed it up.
