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 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

On top of that, nobody on either side of the argument here is asking for costlier Marines even if they do get buffed.

Unfortunately a 2W, 2A, marine with a bolt rifle is too good for 13 pts. Their cost will have to be raised to 16-18 points, which I am perfectly fine with BTW, because it makes marines seem more like "badass elite" army that they actually are in the fluff, which was my whole point about the fluff to begin with.

You literally just described a primaris intercessor which is largely considered ineffective.

At their current point cost, which is what? 22 or something?

Martel732 wrote:
8th ed has turned everyone into horde, whether they should be or not. Elites just die. Cheaper is better. Embrace it.

Exactly, which is why no

Grotesques and Talos lists, custode lists, shining spears and dark reaper lists, daemon prince spam lists, those don't count

elite lists work in 8th edition.

w1zard wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

On top of that, nobody on either side of the argument here is asking for costlier Marines even if they do get buffed.

Unfortunately a 2W, 2A, marine with a bolt rifle is too good for 13 pts. Their cost will have to be raised to 16-18 points, which I am perfectly fine with BTW, because it makes marines seem more like "badass elite" army that they actually are in the fluff, which was my whole point about the fluff to begin with.

You literally just described a primaris intercessor which is largely considered ineffective.

At their current point cost, which is what? 22 or something?

18 I think. Book not on me

w1zard wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

On top of that, nobody on either side of the argument here is asking for costlier Marines even if they do get buffed.

Unfortunately a 2W, 2A, marine with a bolt rifle is too good for 13 pts. Their cost will have to be raised to 16-18 points, which I am perfectly fine with BTW, because it makes marines seem more like "badass elite" army that they actually are in the fluff, which was my whole point about the fluff to begin with.

You literally just described a primaris intercessor which is largely considered ineffective.

At their current point cost, which is what? 22 or something?

18.

One day someone is going to have to explain to me, why a termintors costs as much as he does and a 2w intercessor cost 18pts. Even if bonus save was worth 18pts, which it isn't with all the ap weapons being run around, I don't know how they end up at 40+pts each.

It's kinda odd that we still get all these "Buff Marines by giving them [Primaris stats/gear]" that don't, originally, mention Primaris.

It's almost like GW read all the Marine complaints, gave them what they asked for, then repointed. Sure, their points were off, but that's basically what they were.

On a side note, about Marines being badasses. They are. But so are Aspect Warriors. And Necron Warriors. And Tyranid Warriors. And Genestealers. And Kalabite Warriors, in a different way. And Orkz in their badass soccer-hooligan way. And even Guardsmen and Gaunts. in their baddass more-guys-than-you-have-ammo way.

Karol wrote:
One day someone is going to have to explain to me, why a termintors costs as much as he does and a 2w intercessor cost 18pts. Even if bonus save was worth 18pts, which it isn't with all the ap weapons being run around, I don't know how they end up at 40+pts each.

They probably shouldn't cost 40, but 2+ (esp in cover) is good, storm Bolters are ok, the 5++ is useful, a Powerfist is pretty good, and free Deep Striking is also pretty valuable imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
It's kinda odd that we still get all these "Buff Marines by giving them [Primaris stats/gear]" that don't, originally, mention Primaris.

It's almost like GW read all the Marine complaints, gave them what they asked for, then repointed. Sure, their points were off, but that's basically what they were.

On a side note, about Marines being badasses. They are. But so are Aspect Warriors. And Necron Warriors. And Tyranid Warriors. And Genestealers. And Kalabite Warriors, in a different way. And Orkz in their badass soccer-hooligan way. And even Guardsmen and Gaunts. in their baddass more-guys-than-you-have-ammo way.

Tyranid Warriors are on another level, man.

Rewatch that DoWII intro.

That Dread is a badass. Those Marines are badasses. Those ASM are badasses. That Captain is a badass. But so are the Banshees and Spider and Farseer.

Or do you think the couple Tac Marines should have sent all those Space Elves running all on their own?

Bharring wrote:
Rewatch that DoWII intro.

That Dread is a badass. Those Marines are badasses. Those ASM are badasses. That Captain is a badass. But so are the Banshees and Spider and Farseer.

Or do you think the couple Tac Marines should have sent all those Space Elves running all on their own?

Huh?

I said Tyranid Warriors, not Aspect Warriors?

What primaris gave, the AP system and multiple damage weapons took away.

Insect - You ninja'ed my post. It was an extension of my "badass" comment from the post above you, not a response to you.

Although now that I say that, I've decided to pick and irrational fight with you. So I'm going to insist you said Aspect not Tyranid, and that you edited your post. Jerk! (You should probably ignore this part of my post, because I'm clearly crazy.)

Bharring wrote:
Insect - You ninja'ed my post. It was an extension of my "badass" comment from the post above you, not a response to you.

Although now that I say that, I've decided to pick and irrational fight with you. So I'm going to insist you said Aspect not Tyranid, and that you edited your post. Jerk! (You should probably ignore this part of my post, because I'm clearly crazy.)

I can't ignore it, this is dakka. Round 1 FIGHT!
. . .

Gotcha.

Yeah I've stopped including Tyranid Warriors in my lineup of "basic troops", even though they technically are the tyranid "basic troops". At 3W 3A etc. they're too exotic. Genestealers work better on that scale.

w1zard wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Not to throw gasoline on a fire, but wouldn't it make more sense to counter the "anything mechanical would tear itself apart at that speed" argument by pointing out that a truck moving 70 mph would kill ten dudes in under a second if they were lined up properly and a truck isn't in any way designed to do that?

We are talking about a sword, not a truck. And I highly doubt an entire squad of tactical marines would be stupid enough to stand in a straight line chest to back, obligingly so that they can get killed by a howling banshee running full speed at them. Stop being a smartass.

There's the gasoline explosion.

Seriously though, ten dudes in lose combat formation (5-6 feet apart as specified by unit cohesion) are only going to cover a line 60 feet long at the outside. A little back-of-the-envelope math will tell you a truck doing 70 covers right aroung 100 feet per second, which is more than enough to plow through the whole lot. And yes people will start dodging, but a truck is big and obvious and easy to see coming. People react a lot slower when they don't know what's going on.

Meanwhile the best human sprinter on record was moving at about 15 mph. Eldar are supposed to be substantially faster than a human at the baseline and have centuries of training to get faster yet. Monomolecular weapons would be hideously effective at the kind of slashing attack that kind of speed would necessitate (that's how a katana works and they're not even monomolecular, only rising to the height of "hella sharp"), so at least in theory it's possible. Not likely, but within the realm of possibility if you take alien reflexes and the setting's absurdly sharp CC weapons into consideration.

Now who's the smartass.

Well, if we want to talk about physically possible, how does a phsysical thing like Power Armor or super-strong bones stop a monomolecular weapon at all? Shouldn't Eldar wound things on 2s, ignoring armor saves?

That'd make for a really stupid game.

Pay for it and you can have it. Just like everything else.

But you'll lose too many points in the shooting phase, so it's not feasible.

Martel732 wrote:
Pay for it and you can have it. Just like everything else.

But you'll lose too many points in the shooting phase, so it's not feasible.

But but but xenos are always underpriced?
That would break und the meta!

Bharring wrote:
Well, if we want to talk about physically possible, how does a phsysical thing like Power Armor or super-strong bones stop a monomolecular weapon at all? Shouldn't Eldar wound things on 2s, ignoring armor saves?

That'd make for a really stupid game.

I didn't say it wasn't stupid or that it made sense in the context of game stats or mechanics, just that if someone is going to claim "living things would tear themselves apart at that speed" they should take a minute to figure out how fast "that speed" actually is. Especially if "that speed" turns out to not be that fast.

Well, the force required to cut would decrease as sharpness of the blade increases or the width of the blade decreases. As those approach infinity/0, the force required also aproaches 0.

Monomolecular certainly isn't 0, but we're talking about sizes and measurements usually crunched with a x10^-23 factor.

I'd be surprised if the speed required were more than 1 MPH to cut through any currently-known material with a blade 1 molecule wide.

It actually probably works better the slower you are. A monomolecular blade would dull itself incredibly fast. Theoretically multiple times in the process of cutting through something. The slower the swing, the more capable whatever you're using to keep it "sharp" would be able to replace the missing molecules.

The fluff describes most monomolecular blades operating more like a lightsaber than anything else.

Truth though, Katanas (and to a lesser extent middle-eastern style sabres) are capable of cutting through some pretty hard stuff without losing a workable edge and they do it because they operate more like a saw than anything else.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Insectium7, not to downplay a game I didnt saw but how do you even charge Tau? I learned the bad way to not charge directly a Tau castle with 6 Custodes guardians vs 20 firewarrios, a fiireblade and 2 missilesides.
What a masacre... For me.

I learned the same way to not deepstrike 5 custodes guardians near a guilliman bloob of intercessors with stalkers.

Quick summary:

I've been messing with Rhinos recently, so I had four of them and a Pod. He deployed defensively in a corner, and I gambled with my fewer drops for +1 for first turn and deployed directly across from him. I won 1st, so I banzai'd (advanced) across the table in Rhinos turn 1 popping smoke. I built a wall of Rhinos maybe 9 inches out from his front line with more models behind the Rhinos in a crater or coming up the flank behind a building. He blew up a Rhino and a Devastators Squad, and damaged a second Rhino in his first round. Opening of the second turn I dismounted everybody else 9" forward and was basically on top of him. Plus the Pod loaded with Sternguard I had about 50 guys up there, with another 10 man squad closing in on the flank. Lots of shooting little guns at drones and big guns at the big stuff, rerolling to hit, re-rolling 1s to wound. Cleared all drones, killed the Broadsides, took two Riptides down to about half HP, charged all the Firewarriors, Pathfinders, Riptides I could see with everything I had, Rhinos too. Did a few more wounds to a Riptide, killed off some Fire Warriors.

It could have been a much closer game after that but he botched some targeting priority for his very important 2nd turn, but also just rolled kinda terribly (no marker lights available, pathfinders and some of those little characters who have marker lights had been charged, and my Rhinos blocked meaningful LOS from the others). A couple bad decisions and one of "those turns" was a bit too much. Conceded bottom of turn two.

So essentially, a poorly built & played Tau army can lose to marines. (What are commanders, marker lights, etc? Derp!)

An entire Tau army killed only 1 Rhino and 1 Devastator Squad.

Yeah, no matter what you face, if the full bore attack of an entire army can only eliminate ~200 points then you will win.

A real Tau army would kill all 4 of those Rhinos turn 1 if they even wanted to, and could effortlessly tank the sad sack shooting that would disembark afterwords. 3 Commanders + Y'Varha would laugh in the face of danger. Ha ha ha!

But let's continue the narrative that 40k in its current state is balanced because people run awful lists and play them poorly.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Insectium7, not to downplay a game I didnt saw but how do you even charge Tau? I learned the bad way to not charge directly a Tau castle with 6 Custodes guardians vs 20 firewarrios, a fiireblade and 2 missilesides.
What a masacre... For me.

I learned the same way to not deepstrike 5 custodes guardians near a guilliman bloob of intercessors with stalkers.

Quick summary:

I've been messing with Rhinos recently, so I had four of them and a Pod. He deployed defensively in a corner, and I gambled with my fewer drops for +1 for first turn and deployed directly across from him. I won 1st, so I banzai'd (advanced) across the table in Rhinos turn 1 popping smoke. I built a wall of Rhinos maybe 9 inches out from his front line with more models behind the Rhinos in a crater or coming up the flank behind a building. He blew up a Rhino and a Devastators Squad, and damaged a second Rhino in his first round. Opening of the second turn I dismounted everybody else 9" forward and was basically on top of him. Plus the Pod loaded with Sternguard I had about 50 guys up there, with another 10 man squad closing in on the flank. Lots of shooting little guns at drones and big guns at the big stuff, rerolling to hit, re-rolling 1s to wound. Cleared all drones, killed the Broadsides, took two Riptides down to about half HP, charged all the Firewarriors, Pathfinders, Riptides I could see with everything I had, Rhinos too. Did a few more wounds to a Riptide, killed off some Fire Warriors.

It could have been a much closer game after that but he botched some targeting priority for his very important 2nd turn, but also just rolled kinda terribly (no marker lights available, pathfinders and some of those little characters who have marker lights had been charged, and my Rhinos blocked meaningful LOS from the others). A couple bad decisions and one of "those turns" was a bit too much. Conceded bottom of turn two.

So essentially, a poorly built & played Tau army can lose to marines..... But let's continue the narrative that 40k in its current state is balanced because people run awful lists and play them poorly.

Uhh...what are you talking about? Sure, you can argue he made poor in-game decisions, but fire warriors, pathfinders, drones, and riptides are all solid Tau units. And there's no reason to be so toxic about it, unless you're trying to virtue signal or something to all the anti-xenos players. And I don't think anyone on here (or anywhere? ever?) has alleged that 8th is perfectly balanced.

A trunk hitting ten guys standing is a row isn't likely, but stranger things have happened. I'm still laughing at the idea that space ships traveling though hell, and *PAULDRONS* aren't over the top, but really good swords skills and fast reflexes are. Also, I believe most power weapons actually use a molecule disrupting field to do most of the actual cutting, so they really wouldn't dull, and may not even be sharp in the first place.

Durability wise I think marines are fine. Playing against them, it usually takes massed melta fire to quickly inflict casualties (I play sisters, so others would use plasma), weapons designed to kill...heavily...armored...targets...
You know, like marines. (Same armor save as a main battle tank). If I'm not using melta, or if AT weapons aren't being used, the only way I can reliably kill marines, particularly if they're in cover, is to absolutely drown them in bolter fire. Martel, that T4 really helps. Wounding on 4+ with bolters while being wounded on 3+ in return is a bigger difference then you're giving credit to. You're also overlooking the benefit of that higher leadership. MSU Marines are functionally immune to battle shock outside of being LDbombed.

For Close combat: I was in a game against a marine player. He was making the same complaint. He was saying he paid for CC stats, but since he was stuck in cover, he couldn't use them. My reply was that if he did use them, he'd probably win those melees. But, since I'm not an idiot, why would I let him? Hence the situation where if he broke cover I'd shoot him. Martel, why are you asking non-marine players to be stupid? Of course you have to plan to use that, just like other players have to plan to keep you from doing it to them. I think it's rather foolish though to say marines should just "la la la" skip their way across an open battle field and try to punch someone in the face, and not have to face any repercussion for it. Yes, you're going to say that it's not what you're saying. But it really is. You either want everyone else to be nerfed to the point where your MartySue Marines can hollywood tactics them, or you want marines buffed to the point where it's the same. You're asking your fellow gamers to not have their troops defend themselves, or use the best weapons available. Currently, I'd say you're leaning towards the buffed side of things, because you're asking for free WS, S, T, and LD.

Fixes. Offensive power. Make bolters better. Most of the models in the game that can take bolters are already overcosted. SM, CSM, Inquisitor Henchmen, SoB, just to name a few. Make bolters better and you amp up all of them. I'm thinking an increase in the number of shots. This would keep them feeling like elites, while improving their ability to fight hordes.

 Mmmpi wrote:

For Close combat: I was in a game against a marine player. He was making the same complaint. He was saying he paid for CC stats, but since he was stuck in cover, he couldn't use them. My reply was that if he did use them, he'd probably win those melees. But, since I'm not an idiot, why would I let him? Hence the situation where if he broke cover I'd shoot him. Martel, why are you asking non-marine players to be stupid? Of course you have to plan to use that, just like other players have to plan to keep you from doing it to them. I think it's rather foolish though to say marines should just "la la la" skip their way across an open battle field and try to punch someone in the face, and not have to face any repercussion for it. Yes, you're going to say that it's not what you're saying. But it really is. You either want everyone else to be nerfed to the point where your MartySue Marines can hollywood tactics them, or you want marines buffed to the point where it's the same.

I think to appease Martel they should drop marines to 10ppm but give them a 0+ WS and no attacks. That way if the enemy makes it into CC they just win.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Insectium7, not to downplay a game I didnt saw but how do you even charge Tau? I learned the bad way to not charge directly a Tau castle with 6 Custodes guardians vs 20 firewarrios, a fiireblade and 2 missilesides.
What a masacre... For me.

I learned the same way to not deepstrike 5 custodes guardians near a guilliman bloob of intercessors with stalkers.

Quick summary:

I've been messing with Rhinos recently, so I had four of them and a Pod. He deployed defensively in a corner, and I gambled with my fewer drops for +1 for first turn and deployed directly across from him. I won 1st, so I banzai'd (advanced) across the table in Rhinos turn 1 popping smoke. I built a wall of Rhinos maybe 9 inches out from his front line with more models behind the Rhinos in a crater or coming up the flank behind a building. He blew up a Rhino and a Devastators Squad, and damaged a second Rhino in his first round. Opening of the second turn I dismounted everybody else 9" forward and was basically on top of him. Plus the Pod loaded with Sternguard I had about 50 guys up there, with another 10 man squad closing in on the flank. Lots of shooting little guns at drones and big guns at the big stuff, rerolling to hit, re-rolling 1s to wound. Cleared all drones, killed the Broadsides, took two Riptides down to about half HP, charged all the Firewarriors, Pathfinders, Riptides I could see with everything I had, Rhinos too. Did a few more wounds to a Riptide, killed off some Fire Warriors.

It could have been a much closer game after that but he botched some targeting priority for his very important 2nd turn, but also just rolled kinda terribly (no marker lights available, pathfinders and some of those little characters who have marker lights had been charged, and my Rhinos blocked meaningful LOS from the others). A couple bad decisions and one of "those turns" was a bit too much. Conceded bottom of turn two.

So essentially, a poorly built & played Tau army can lose to marines. (What are commanders, marker lights, etc? Derp!)

An entire Tau army killed only 1 Rhino and 1 Devastator Squad.

Yeah, no matter what you face, if the full bore attack of an entire army can only eliminate ~200 points then you will win.

A real Tau army would kill all 4 of those Rhinos turn 1 if they even wanted to, and could effortlessly tank the sad sack shooting that would disembark afterwords. 3 Commanders + Y'Varha would laugh in the face of danger. Ha ha ha!

But let's continue the narrative that 40k in its current state is balanced because people run awful lists and play them poorly.

I'm not telling anyone to draw any conclusions from one game. Not sure where you're getting that.

There were command suits in his army. Two of them, one in deep strike reserves. Not sure what a Tau army is supposed to look like, but 2 command suits, 3 riptides, 30 Fire Warriors, some pathfinders, 2 Broadsides, 12? Shield drones three of those little markerlight buff characters.

I gurantee you if I posted my list the internet would bitch endlessly about how bad it was. 5 transports, 77 marines, 4 full 10 man Tac squads, etc. You know, "garbage units that nobody takes."

Wow, TWO Broadsides! That's definitely a power Tau list!

Why aren't you playing competitively in tournaments again?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wow, TWO Broadsides! That's definitely a power Tau list!

Why aren't you playing competitively in tournaments again?

Snark it up, snarky. Post me a good Tau list.

If his list is crap, and my list is full of "hot garbage", where does that put us?

I would have rather he had more broadsides, as they're way easier to kill than Riptides, and they dont fly away from CC.

 Insectum7 wrote:


I gurantee you if I posted my list the internet would bitch endlessly about how bad it was. 5 transports, 77 marines, 4 full 10 man Tac squads, etc. You know, "garbage units that nobody takes."

Such rationale has no place on Dakka

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wow, TWO Broadsides! That's definitely a power Tau list!

Why aren't you playing competitively in tournaments again?

Snark it up, snarky. Post me a good Tau list.

If his list is crap, and my list is full of "hot garbage", where does that put us?

I would have rather he had more broadsides, as they're way easier to kill than Riptides, and they dont fly away from CC.

3 Riptides, 3 Ionheads, Longstrike. Droneport with marker drones and a cadre to pilot them. Drop an ionhead for more shield/marker drones if you wish. Markerlight support via breacher teams and the Cadre Fireblade.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wow, TWO Broadsides! That's definitely a power Tau list!

Why aren't you playing competitively in tournaments again?

Snark it up, snarky. Post me a good Tau list.

If his list is crap, and my list is full of "hot garbage", where does that put us?

I would have rather he had more broadsides, as they're way easier to kill than Riptides, and they dont fly away from CC.

Lol. Unless you beat a list that's nothing but quad fusion coldstars and fore warriors with an army of pure terminators not deep striking and foot slogging towards them IT DUZZINT COUNT.