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2018/07/03 01:34:33
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Why aren't you playing competitively in tournaments again?
Snark it up, snarky. Post me a good Tau list.
If his list is crap, and my list is full of "hot garbage", where does that put us?
I would have rather he had more broadsides, as they're way easier to kill than Riptides, and they dont fly away from CC.
3 Riptides, 3 Ionheads, Longstrike. Droneport with marker drones and a cadre to pilot them. Drop an ionhead for more shield/marker drones if you wish. Markerlight support via breacher teams and the Cadre Fireblade.
Whats standard for the riptides? He had 2 with the gatling and one with Ion.
Mmmpi wrote: A trunk hitting ten guys standing is a row isn't likely, but stranger things have happened. I'm still laughing at the idea that space ships traveling though hell, and *PAULDRONS* aren't over the top, but really good swords skills and fast reflexes are. Also, I believe most power weapons actually use a molecule disrupting field to do most of the actual cutting, so they really wouldn't dull, and may not even be sharp in the first place.
Durability wise I think marines are fine. Playing against them, it usually takes massed melta fire to quickly inflict casualties (I play sisters, so others would use plasma), weapons designed to kill...heavily...armored...targets...
You know, like marines. (Same armor save as a main battle tank). If I'm not using melta, or if AT weapons aren't being used, the only way I can reliably kill marines, particularly if they're in cover, is to absolutely drown them in bolter fire. Martel, that T4 really helps. Wounding on 4+ with bolters while being wounded on 3+ in return is a bigger difference then you're giving credit to. You're also overlooking the benefit of that higher leadership. MSU Marines are functionally immune to battle shock outside of being LDbombed.
For Close combat: I was in a game against a marine player. He was making the same complaint. He was saying he paid for CC stats, but since he was stuck in cover, he couldn't use them. My reply was that if he did use them, he'd probably win those melees. But, since I'm not an idiot, why would I let him? Hence the situation where if he broke cover I'd shoot him. Martel, why are you asking non-marine players to be stupid? Of course you have to plan to use that, just like other players have to plan to keep you from doing it to them. I think it's rather foolish though to say marines should just "la la la" skip their way across an open battle field and try to punch someone in the face, and not have to face any repercussion for it. Yes, you're going to say that it's not what you're saying. But it really is. You either want everyone else to be nerfed to the point where your MartySue Marines can hollywood tactics them, or you want marines buffed to the point where it's the same. You're asking your fellow gamers to not have their troops defend themselves, or use the best weapons available. Currently, I'd say you're leaning towards the buffed side of things, because you're asking for free WS, S, T, and LD.
Fixes. Offensive power. Make bolters better. Most of the models in the game that can take bolters are already overcosted. SM, CSM, Inquisitor Henchmen, SoB, just to name a few. Make bolters better and you amp up all of them. I'm thinking an increase in the number of shots. This would keep them feeling like elites, while improving their ability to fight hordes.
No, that's not right. You're describing 3rd. We're so far from that now it's really gone full circle. But I'm tired and it's just not worth it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 01:36:28
2018/07/03 01:35:59
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Mmmpi wrote: A trunk hitting ten guys standing is a row isn't likely, but stranger things have happened. I'm still laughing at the idea that space ships traveling though hell, and *PAULDRONS* aren't over the top, but really good swords skills and fast reflexes are. Also, I believe most power weapons actually use a molecule disrupting field to do most of the actual cutting, so they really wouldn't dull, and may not even be sharp in the first place.
Durability wise I think marines are fine. Playing against them, it usually takes massed melta fire to quickly inflict casualties (I play sisters, so others would use plasma), weapons designed to kill...heavily...armored...targets...
You know, like marines. (Same armor save as a main battle tank). If I'm not using melta, or if AT weapons aren't being used, the only way I can reliably kill marines, particularly if they're in cover, is to absolutely drown them in bolter fire. Martel, that T4 really helps. Wounding on 4+ with bolters while being wounded on 3+ in return is a bigger difference then you're giving credit to. You're also overlooking the benefit of that higher leadership. MSU Marines are functionally immune to battle shock outside of being LDbombed.
For Close combat: I was in a game against a marine player. He was making the same complaint. He was saying he paid for CC stats, but since he was stuck in cover, he couldn't use them. My reply was that if he did use them, he'd probably win those melees. But, since I'm not an idiot, why would I let him? Hence the situation where if he broke cover I'd shoot him. Martel, why are you asking non-marine players to be stupid? Of course you have to plan to use that, just like other players have to plan to keep you from doing it to them. I think it's rather foolish though to say marines should just "la la la" skip their way across an open battle field and try to punch someone in the face, and not have to face any repercussion for it. Yes, you're going to say that it's not what you're saying. But it really is. You either want everyone else to be nerfed to the point where your MartySue Marines can hollywood tactics them, or you want marines buffed to the point where it's the same. You're asking your fellow gamers to not have their troops defend themselves, or use the best weapons available. Currently, I'd say you're leaning towards the buffed side of things, because you're asking for free WS, S, T, and LD.
Fixes. Offensive power. Make bolters better. Most of the models in the game that can take bolters are already overcosted. SM, CSM, Inquisitor Henchmen, SoB, just to name a few. Make bolters better and you amp up all of them. I'm thinking an increase in the number of shots. This would keep them feeling like elites, while improving their ability to fight hordes.
No, that's not right. You're describing 3rd. We're so far from that now it's really gone full circle. But I'm tired and it's just not worth it.
Except that it is. Sorry you don't like it.
2018/07/03 02:04:17
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Why aren't you playing competitively in tournaments again?
Snark it up, snarky. Post me a good Tau list.
If his list is crap, and my list is full of "hot garbage", where does that put us?
I would have rather he had more broadsides, as they're way easier to kill than Riptides, and they dont fly away from CC.
Lol. Unless you beat a list that's nothing but quad fusion coldstars and fore warriors with an army of pure terminators not deep striking and foot slogging towards them IT DUZZINT COUNT.
Cant forget when you list out all the stuff your "regular" opponents usually bring and its easily +200 points above what you said the points limit would be.
I don't know, after getting stomped into mulch by a "fluffy" Guard list while only killing a fraction of their models, I think I'm changing my vote on the original question to "G_d I hope so".
I won't even complain about paying for another book and (probably) having to buy more models to field a legal army.
Why aren't you playing competitively in tournaments again?
Snark it up, snarky. Post me a good Tau list.
If his list is crap, and my list is full of "hot garbage", where does that put us?
I would have rather he had more broadsides, as they're way easier to kill than Riptides, and they dont fly away from CC.
Lol. Unless you beat a list that's nothing but quad fusion coldstars and fore warriors with an army of pure terminators not deep striking and foot slogging towards them IT DUZZINT COUNT.
Not what was said. I haven't any care for stupid casual vs stupid casual games as they dont teach anything to the player or watcher.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/07/03 04:19:52
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Oh, slayer, you're so leet. One day i hope to be as single-minded as you. Such a focussed killing machine your armies must be. I bet you opponents tremble as you enter the game shop. Surely your battles are fought with the utmost precision, nary a rule missed, or a misplaced model or forgotted weapon fired forgiven. What a shining example to the 40k hobby your example is.
I'm not sure why people can't see how much more worthwhile the sister statline is when compared to marines.
Most marines never even see combat due to the faction having terrible mobility options, and their guns are obviously better than their melee weapons.
The difference in assault is laughable.
5 marines kill .44 more guardsmen in melee than 5 sisters do.
The difference in durability is very slight.
Sure, it takes 18 lasguns to kill a marine, but 12 to kill a sister, but this is about as big as the gap gets.
It takes 9 bolter shots to kill a marine, and 7 to kill a sister.
It takes 9 assault cannon shots to kill 2 marines, and it takes 8 to kill two sisters.
So in the end, against the guns that actually do the majority of the killing, they are effectively about the same.
Morale is largely irrelevant on any 5 man squad because they are so easy to wipe out.
And yet sisters do the same amount of damage in shooting as marines do with the same weapons, for about 70% of their cost. They do have slightly different weapon options, but can also take more guns per squad. They are simply more efficient at everything that matters.
Being 4 points cheaper is a big reason why sisters are actually decent right now. Actually having useful transports and acts of faith help A TON as well, but that's a whole other issue.
The next time you play marines, or sisters, mentally ask yourself when they are dying, or fighting, or shooting, if the difference in T/S/WS/LD made a real difference. I think you'll be surprised (or not) to see that it usually doesn't matter, but that having 30% more BS3+ power armor models might have.
2018/07/03 04:48:03
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Insectum7 wrote: Oh, slayer, you're so leet. One day i hope to be as single-minded as you. Such a focussed killing machine your armies must be. I bet you opponents tremble as you enter the game shop. Surely your battles are fought with the utmost precision, nary a rule missed, or a misplaced model or forgotted weapon fired forgiven. What a shining example to the 40k hobby your example is.
Once I'm done putting all my models together and have everything painted I hope to be that beacon. I have a Huron/Azrael stand-in I love to bust out for every battle basically.
Rules are forgotten here and there but forgetting units and weapons is pretty damn stupid of anyone, even in a 2500 point game.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/07/03 05:24:07
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Insectum7 wrote: Oh, slayer, you're so leet. One day i hope to be as single-minded as you. Such a focussed killing machine your armies must be. I bet you opponents tremble as you enter the game shop. Surely your battles are fought with the utmost precision, nary a rule missed, or a misplaced model or forgotted weapon fired forgiven. What a shining example to the 40k hobby your example is.
Once I'm done putting all my models together and have everything painted I hope to be that beacon. I have a Huron/Azrael stand-in I love to bust out for every battle basically.
Rules are forgotten here and there but forgetting units and weapons is pretty damn stupid of anyone, even in a 2500 point game.
Nick Nanavati forgot a unit in reserves for the entire match in a recent finals tournament game. What a nobody.
I think you're just a toxic poster tbh
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/07/03 05:24:43
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Insectum7 wrote: Oh, slayer, you're so leet. One day i hope to be as single-minded as you. Such a focussed killing machine your armies must be. I bet you opponents tremble as you enter the game shop. Surely your battles are fought with the utmost precision, nary a rule missed, or a misplaced model or forgotted weapon fired forgiven. What a shining example to the 40k hobby your example is.
Once I'm done putting all my models together and have everything painted I hope to be that beacon. I have a Huron/Azrael stand-in I love to bust out for every battle basically.
Rules are forgotten here and there but forgetting units and weapons is pretty damn stupid of anyone, even in a 2500 point game.
Nick Nanavati forgot a unit in reserves for the entire match in a recent finals tournament game. What a nobody.
I think you're just a toxic poster tbh
So it happens once and suddenly it's normal?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/07/03 05:35:37
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
jcd386 wrote: I'm not sure why people can't see how much more worthwhile the sister statline is when compared to marines.
Most marines never even see combat due to the faction having terrible mobility options, and their guns are obviously better than their melee weapons.
The difference in assault is laughable.
5 marines kill .44 more guardsmen in melee than 5 sisters do.
The difference in durability is very slight.
Sure, it takes 18 lasguns to kill a marine, but 12 to kill a sister, but this is about as big as the gap gets.
It takes 9 bolter shots to kill a marine, and 7 to kill a sister.
It takes 9 assault cannon shots to kill 2 marines, and it takes 8 to kill two sisters.
So in the end, against the guns that actually do the majority of the killing, they are effectively about the same.
Morale is largely irrelevant on any 5 man squad because they are so easy to wipe out.
And yet sisters do the same amount of damage in shooting as marines do with the same weapons, for about 70% of their cost. They do have slightly different weapon options, but can also take more guns per squad. They are simply more efficient at everything that matters.
Being 4 points cheaper is a big reason why sisters are actually decent right now. Actually having useful transports and acts of faith help A TON as well, but that's a whole other issue.
The next time you play marines, or sisters, mentally ask yourself when they are dying, or fighting, or shooting, if the difference in T/S/WS/LD made a real difference. I think you'll be surprised (or not) to see that it usually doesn't matter, but that having 30% more BS3+ power armor models might have.
So what you're saying is it that against lasguns sisters take 33% more casulties (the most common gun in the game by numbers), about 24% more from bolters, 12% more from assault cannons.
Meanwhile sisters are 31% cheaper. That's in taking fire.
But you're leaving out the +1 leadership, and the fact that if marines make it into combat, they'll inflict more damage. So, more resilient against small arms by more than the cost difference, though less against dedicated anti-heavy infantry weapons, and the same against AT weapons.
"but we can't get our marines into close combat" you might say. Well, considering people have posted here that they have, and most Blood angel players have (and their troops aren't any more durable then standard marines) makes me wonder where you're messing up.
So, to sum up. Ranged offense is similar (marines have far more options for weapon upgrades then sisters), but with more range. Defensive durability is higher for marines, ranging from 31% and 29% (lasguns and bolters), to 0% (las cannons and missile launchers). Melee the marines are 33% more likely to hit, 33% more likely to wound, and 50% less likely to be wounded. After both, the higher leadership then makes them less likely to suffer battleshock by 50% (3 casualties for marines before the BS roll even matters, as opposed to two for sisters). Seems like that's a fair trade for four points.
2018/07/03 05:41:04
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I LOL at the notion that +1LD is worth anything when people do what they can to avoid big squads in the first place with both those units.
Kill two sisters and they have to make that roll. Kill two marines and they don't. Sure it's a 1/6, but it happens, and sisters are easier to kill unless you're using lascannons or melta.
2018/07/03 06:13:03
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I LOL at the notion that +1LD is worth anything when people do what they can to avoid big squads in the first place with both those units.
Bigger squads, fewer drops, more regular guys to chew through before you get to the special/heavies, easier to command board space while still in range for aura buffs.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I LOL at the notion that +1LD is worth anything when people do what they can to avoid big squads in the first place with both those units.
Kill two sisters and they have to make that roll. Kill two marines and they don't. Sure it's a 1/6, but it happens, and sisters are easier to kill unless you're using lascannons or melta.
1/6 chance to lose that extra Sister you bought because they're that much cheaper than the Marines? Yeah whatever on that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I LOL at the notion that +1LD is worth anything when people do what they can to avoid big squads in the first place with both those units.
Bigger squads, fewer drops, more regular guys to chew through before you get to the special/heavies, easier to command board space while still in range for aura buffs.
You have transports if you want to create fewer drops, and two Sisters squads can fit in those.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 06:14:57
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/07/03 06:15:34
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Insectum7 wrote: Whats standard for the riptides? He had 2 with the gatling and one with Ion.
You should always take the Heavy Burst Cannon IMHO.
Yeah, ok. With the targeting system thing that bumps it to a -2, presumably. Ion cannon seemed good but I suppose if you can get it on the tank then the riptides can go burst.
They still didn't seem to be doing that much damage though. Can anyone walk me through the math on the Riptide vs. Meq shooting?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 06:19:39
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I LOL at the notion that +1LD is worth anything when people do what they can to avoid big squads in the first place with both those units.
Kill two sisters and they have to make that roll. Kill two marines and they don't. Sure it's a 1/6, but it happens, and sisters are easier to kill unless you're using lascannons or melta.
1/6 chance to lose that extra Sister you bought because they're that much cheaper than the Marines? Yeah whatever on that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I LOL at the notion that +1LD is worth anything when people do what they can to avoid big squads in the first place with both those units.
Bigger squads, fewer drops, more regular guys to chew through before you get to the special/heavies, easier to command board space while still in range for aura buffs.
You have transports if you want to create fewer drops, and two Sisters squads can fit in those.
I bought five sisters, I lost two, now I have a 1/6 chance of losing a special weapons. And sure, I can fit two sister squads in a rhino. But did you say several times in other threads that rhinos suck? Besides, I still have to get out to shoot, which means you can shoot back, or since it's sisters, charge me. Finally, even if I do take a repressor, it's still just a rhino in terms of durability. How hard did you all say it is to kill a rhino?
Seems like that +1 ld does have an effect after all. Oh, and that's not counting that free marine re-roll.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 06:23:17
2018/07/03 06:52:42
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Insectum7 wrote: Whats standard for the riptides? He had 2 with the gatling and one with Ion.
You should always take the Heavy Burst Cannon IMHO.
Yeah, ok. With the targeting system thing that bumps it to a -2, presumably. Ion cannon seemed good but I suppose if you can get it on the tank then the riptides can go burst.
They still didn't seem to be doing that much damage though. Can anyone walk me through the math on the Riptide vs. Meq shooting?
18 shoots 4+ rerolling 1's, wounding on 3+ and you save on a 5+
8 SMS 4+ re-roll 1's wounding on 3+ and 4+save
So 4 die to the burst cannon and 1.5 dies to the sms Though the HBC is wasted on 1 wound models.
His army should have beenn more than capable of removing 30 something marines in a turn leaving you with insufficient volume to worry a riptide, you charge the riptide he flys away your assualt units get a second round of full power shooting assuming they survived the overwatch in the first place.
The greater good is served and some scouts get a promotion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 06:54:20
2018/07/03 06:58:20
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Insectum7 wrote: Whats standard for the riptides? He had 2 with the gatling and one with Ion.
You should always take the Heavy Burst Cannon IMHO.
Yeah, ok. With the targeting system thing that bumps it to a -2, presumably. Ion cannon seemed good but I suppose if you can get it on the tank then the riptides can go burst.
They still didn't seem to be doing that much damage though. Can anyone walk me through the math on the Riptide vs. Meq shooting?
18 shoots 4+ rerolling 1's, wounding on 3+ and you save on a 5+
8 SMS 4+ re-roll 1's wounding on 3+ and 4+save
So 4 die to the burst cannon and 1.5 dies to the sms Though the HBC is wasted on 1 wound models.
His army ahould have beennmore than capable of removing 30 something marines in a turn leaving you with insufficient volume to worry a riptide, you charge the riptide he flys away your assualt units get a second round of full power shooting assuming they survived the overwatch in the first place.
So those rolls give the Riptides 5ish kills each, and otherwise only the Commanders could fire because everything else had to fall back. I thought the 18 shots could only be on one Riptide a turn? Also the Reroll 1's comes from..? Prior turn they're stuck shooting Rhinos, and Riptides are only wounding on 5's.
The overwatch wasn't really a problem. Surviving Rhinos charging, or just tacs tanking it for minimal damage.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 07:00:13
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I LOL at the notion that +1LD is worth anything when people do what they can to avoid big squads in the first place with both those units.
Kill two sisters and they have to make that roll. Kill two marines and they don't. Sure it's a 1/6, but it happens, and sisters are easier to kill unless you're using lascannons or melta.
1/6 chance to lose that extra Sister you bought because they're that much cheaper than the Marines? Yeah whatever on that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I LOL at the notion that +1LD is worth anything when people do what they can to avoid big squads in the first place with both those units.
Bigger squads, fewer drops, more regular guys to chew through before you get to the special/heavies, easier to command board space while still in range for aura buffs.
You have transports if you want to create fewer drops, and two Sisters squads can fit in those.
I bought five sisters, I lost two, now I have a 1/6 chance of losing a special weapons. And sure, I can fit two sister squads in a rhino. But did you say several times in other threads that rhinos suck? Besides, I still have to get out to shoot, which means you can shoot back, or since it's sisters, charge me. Finally, even if I do take a repressor, it's still just a rhino in terms of durability. How hard did you all say it is to kill a rhino?
Seems like that +1 ld does have an effect after all. Oh, and that's not counting that free marine re-roll.
I didn't say Rhinos suck. I said Rhinos are too expensive for me to use but do what they're supposed to do.
I did explicitly say Drop Pods are bad though, and that Razorbacks make gak transports but good battle tanks.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/07/03 07:53:27
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Seriously though, ten dudes in lose combat formation (5-6 feet apart as specified by unit cohesion) are only going to cover a line 60 feet long at the outside. A little back-of-the-envelope math will tell you a truck doing 70 covers right aroung 100 feet per second, which is more than enough to plow through the whole lot. And yes people will start dodging, but a truck is big and obvious and easy to see coming. People react a lot slower when they don't know what's going on.
Meanwhile the best human sprinter on record was moving at about 15 mph. Eldar are supposed to be substantially faster than a human at the baseline and have centuries of training to get faster yet. Monomolecular weapons would be hideously effective at the kind of slashing attack that kind of speed would necessitate (that's how a katana works and they're not even monomolecular, only rising to the height of "hella sharp"), so at least in theory it's possible. Not likely, but within the realm of possibility if you take alien reflexes and the setting's absurdly sharp CC weapons into consideration.
Now who's the smartass.
Ok if you want to play this game, then yes, I concede that if 10 tactical marines stood back to chest in a straight line, and a howling banshee ran headlong at them at full speed and braced the sword against herself, and she decapitated the lot of them without slowing down or stopping, it would be possible for her to kill an entire squad of tactical marines in less than a second. But that is an extremely contrived scenario. I can kill 20 navy seals in a few seconds by lining them up against a wall and shooting them with a machine gun, but that doesn't make me some super special forces soldier.
The scenario you described, with the marines standing 5-6 feet apart in a combat spread, necessitates direction changes and or multiple sword swings to kill them all. Going at the speed necessary to kill all of them in under a second, those direction changes and or sword swings would rip the flesh from her bones from the inertia of her movement.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 07:59:55
2018/07/03 07:53:54
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Nope ithe 18 shots is an inherent ability for a riptide
That's what he should have done turn 1, really no overwatch casualties I've murdered bloat drones with tau overwatch the firewarriors alone should have been enough to kill the remaining 10ish marines in overwatch
Just to be clear rhinos don't block LOS in 8th edition you can see under them. Only landradiers, Leman Russes and Chimeras block line of sight parked sideways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 07:57:05
2018/07/03 07:55:37
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Mmmpi wrote: Lol, you don't get it do you? Let me explain it to you slowly then. I know how physics work. I've said as much. I don't fething care however, what my real world physics book says when talking about a fantasy world (sci-fi, with a very few rare exceptions, is fantasy with pretend science.). The people who created the world this fluff exsits in says that eldar are that fast. So they're that fast. I say titans violate the square cube law. In the real world they do. In fiction, the writer can do or say what they want. GW says they don't. They gave a mumbo-jumbo reason for it. They didn't for their space elves. If GW writes want eldar to be fast enough to jump out of a WS moving at a 'leisurely' 200km per hour, kill two guys, and step back in, then GW is right. It's not the real world. GW decides where and when to apply physics.
Also, I remember what I read. It was a Warp Spider Exarch, who killed a combat squad of marines. One of the two chapter approved. Either 2000, or 2002. The SS/WS example is in that one as well. I can't give you a page number, because As I said before my books are on another Continent. I know for a fact that I've read other examples like in since, but I still don't remember the exact book.
Now, can we get back to talking about how to un-nerf a unit that never got nerfed?
You realize right that "it's magic" isn't good enough justification really? Or that fantasy can ignore all sense just like that without ruining suspension of disbelief which is 100% vital for story enjoyment...If something breaks laws of physics there needs to be good reason.
It's 100% possible to have realistic story with dragons and magic. You just need competent writers and not just "it's magic"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 08:16:30
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/07/03 08:25:58
Subject: Is it possible we'll see a revised Space Marine codex?
Mmmpi wrote: Lol, you don't get it do you? Let me explain it to you slowly then. I know how physics work. I've said as much. I don't fething care however, what my real world physics book says when talking about a fantasy world (sci-fi, with a very few rare exceptions, is fantasy with pretend science.). The people who created the world this fluff exsits in says that eldar are that fast. So they're that fast. I say titans violate the square cube law. In the real world they do. In fiction, the writer can do or say what they want. GW says they don't. They gave a mumbo-jumbo reason for it. They didn't for their space elves. If GW writes want eldar to be fast enough to jump out of a WS moving at a 'leisurely' 200km per hour, kill two guys, and step back in, then GW is right. It's not the real world. GW decides where and when to apply physics.
Also, I remember what I read. It was a Warp Spider Exarch, who killed a combat squad of marines. One of the two chapter approved. Either 2000, or 2002. The SS/WS example is in that one as well. I can't give you a page number, because As I said before my books are on another Continent. I know for a fact that I've read other examples like in since, but I still don't remember the exact book.
Now, can we get back to talking about how to un-nerf a unit that never got nerfed?
You realize right that "it's magic" isn't good enough justification really? Or that fantasy can ignore all sense just like that without ruining suspension of disbelief which is 100% vital for story enjoyment...If something breaks laws of physics there needs to be good reason.
It's 100% possible to have realistic story with dragons and magic. You just need competent writers and not just "it's magic"
I never said it was magic. I said GW says it's so. That's writer's fiat. Psyckers ignore thermodynamics, but you're not complaining about them. Titans violate the square cube law, and you're not complaining about them. Seriously. Since GW said space elves aren't that fast, give me a source that says why titans can hold up their own weight, still move, and not sink into bedrock like an ice-pick through tissue paper. Provide a source that shows how psykers break TD. I had to provide sources for my claim, now it's your turn. Ready? GO!
Seriously though, ten dudes in lose combat formation (5-6 feet apart as specified by unit cohesion) are only going to cover a line 60 feet long at the outside. A little back-of-the-envelope math will tell you a truck doing 70 covers right aroung 100 feet per second, which is more than enough to plow through the whole lot. And yes people will start dodging, but a truck is big and obvious and easy to see coming. People react a lot slower when they don't know what's going on.
Meanwhile the best human sprinter on record was moving at about 15 mph. Eldar are supposed to be substantially faster than a human at the baseline and have centuries of training to get faster yet. Monomolecular weapons would be hideously effective at the kind of slashing attack that kind of speed would necessitate (that's how a katana works and they're not even monomolecular, only rising to the height of "hella sharp"), so at least in theory it's possible. Not likely, but within the realm of possibility if you take alien reflexes and the setting's absurdly sharp CC weapons into consideration.
Now who's the smartass.
Ok if you want to play this game, then yes, I concede that if 10 tactical marines stood back to chest in a straight line, and a howling banshee ran headlong at them at full speed and braced the sword against herself, and she decapitated the lot of them without slowing down or stopping, it would be possible for her to kill an entire squad of tactical marines in less than a second. But that is an extremely contrived scenario. I can kill 20 navy seals in a few seconds by lining them up against a wall and shooting them with a machine gun, but that doesn't make me some super special forces soldier.
The scenario you described, with the marines standing 5-6 feet apart in a combat spread, necessitates direction changes and or multiple sword swings to kill them all. Going at the speed necessary to kill all of them in under a second, those direction changes and or sword swings would rip the flesh from her bones from the inertia of her movement.
GW says they don't rip their flesh from their bones, so it doesn't happen. As I just asked earlier. Source on how titans work while violating physics, and psykers. I'll wait.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I LOL at the notion that +1LD is worth anything when people do what they can to avoid big squads in the first place with both those units.
Kill two sisters and they have to make that roll. Kill two marines and they don't. Sure it's a 1/6, but it happens, and sisters are easier to kill unless you're using lascannons or melta.
1/6 chance to lose that extra Sister you bought because they're that much cheaper than the Marines? Yeah whatever on that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I LOL at the notion that +1LD is worth anything when people do what they can to avoid big squads in the first place with both those units.
Bigger squads, fewer drops, more regular guys to chew through before you get to the special/heavies, easier to command board space while still in range for aura buffs.
You have transports if you want to create fewer drops, and two Sisters squads can fit in those.
I bought five sisters, I lost two, now I have a 1/6 chance of losing a special weapons. And sure, I can fit two sister squads in a rhino. But did you say several times in other threads that rhinos suck? Besides, I still have to get out to shoot, which means you can shoot back, or since it's sisters, charge me. Finally, even if I do take a repressor, it's still just a rhino in terms of durability. How hard did you all say it is to kill a rhino?
Seems like that +1 ld does have an effect after all. Oh, and that's not counting that free marine re-roll.
I didn't say Rhinos suck. I said Rhinos are too expensive for me to use but do what they're supposed to do.
I did explicitly say Drop Pods are bad though, and that Razorbacks make gak transports but good battle tanks.
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Yes, but the way you've been acting towards models and units, too expensive is the exact same as saying it sucks.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also everyone knows Sisters have the Repentor, which is what you are supposed to use!
Yes, which I talked about in my post. I like it, but it's not any more tougher then a rhino, and is more expensive. But I've already talked about it. You didn't bring up those points in your reply, so you must agree with them.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 08:32:26
