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 Galef wrote:

meleti wrote:

The Hemlocks are getting the -2 more often than you might think, they can move close enough to their target without being within 12” of every other unit in a Guard player’s army. It’s not a 100% thing (you can deploy all castled up and squeeze more units into a 12” window with a move), but it’s not a 0% thing either.

Fair enough, but I would argue that those situations are more an error in the Guard players deployment than a comment on how good Hemlocks are.

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Yeah, it just depends on how the game is playing out. You can’t always have everything in a big clump if you’re playing objectives, and the Eldar player can move carefully to limit his exposure (not just suiciding into your army).

Absolutely. What I am suggesting is to know exactly what the ideal targets are for Hemlocks, and position your units so that you have ideal counters near those ideal targets.
Basically force the Eldar player to "suicide" the Hemlocks or spend a few turns not using them.

Not super easy for non-mobile armies, but the tactic exists.
You can also target the Serpents as the Flyers themselves can't do jack for objectives. Destroy all the "ground" targets and play the waiting game on the objectives.

Side note for those who think the -1 trait is OP: What if the traits only worked outside 18" instead of 12"?
That additional 6" bubble really opens up more opportunities to ignore the whole army trait.
I can't think of another army trait in which the opponent has an ACTIVE ability to flat out ignore.

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Every ig list needs 3+ hydras now. They just do now.

Well, I play Orkz and since GW doesn't know how to write a good ork codex since 4th edition my only answer to ANY question of targets is to throw boyz at it. I have faced armies where my ranged units were hitting on 6s or not at all. So much fun when one of your units you are paying points for can't even be used in the game because -2 to hit means you can't even legitimately hit your target.

Use sicaran battle tanks, they ignore ALL modifiers against FLY units. Even when you advance them, which would be -1 to hit, and try to hit the -2 eldar flyer, no -3.

As necron use Ctan shards.

As guard use hellhounds, or even better the FW variant, artemia.

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, I play Orkz and since GW doesn't know how to write a good ork codex since 4th edition my only answer to ANY question of targets is to throw boyz at it. I have faced armies where my ranged units were hitting on 6s or not at all. So much fun when one of your units you are paying points for can't even be used in the game because -2 to hit means you can't even legitimately hit your target.

Im really hoping they address this in the new codex. Im sure they can come up with a fluffy rule for most units to ignore - to hit modifiers. Something along the lines of "Orks barely aim and put so much dakka out to compensate that they always hit at their unmodified BS". Or something along those lines

 Billagio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, I play Orkz and since GW doesn't know how to write a good ork codex since 4th edition my only answer to ANY question of targets is to throw boyz at it. I have faced armies where my ranged units were hitting on 6s or not at all. So much fun when one of your units you are paying points for can't even be used in the game because -2 to hit means you can't even legitimately hit your target.

Im really hoping they address this in the new codex. Im sure they can come up with a fluffy rule for most units to ignore - to hit modifiers. Something along the lines of "Orks barely aim and put so much dakka out to compensate that they always hit at their unmodified BS". Or something along those lines

Unmodified? No. There needs to be some modification, otherwise there would be zero reason to make a single Ork weapon Heavy.
What Orks need is an army-wide rule that they always hit on a natural 6 even with modifiers. So Orks could still suffer modifiers, but they can't be prevented for shooting outright.

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AH yeah that makes sense. I forgot about the Heavy rule

Short Answer to OP

Pretty common, esp if you play elder frequently

 blackmage wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The best solution is to play the -1 to hit armies yourself because they are the best. Or beg GW to use common sense and remove such a BS army trait in the first place.

agreed... but then they should remove too all those bucket of re rollable dice you roll every fire phase and will be fair, remove only 1 thing... no ty (and i dont play stackable -1/-2).

Or get a clue and FAQ the game so that like modifiers never stack, and change the stupid rerolls to after mods for sanity's sake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, I play Orkz and since GW doesn't know how to write a good ork codex since 4th edition my only answer to ANY question of targets is to throw boyz at it. I have faced armies where my ranged units were hitting on 6s or not at all. So much fun when one of your units you are paying points for can't even be used in the game because -2 to hit means you can't even legitimately hit your target.

Im really hoping they address this in the new codex. Im sure they can come up with a fluffy rule for most units to ignore - to hit modifiers. Something along the lines of "Orks barely aim and put so much dakka out to compensate that they always hit at their unmodified BS". Or something along those lines

Unmodified? No. There needs to be some modification, otherwise there would be zero reason to make a single Ork weapon Heavy.
What Orks need is an army-wide rule that they always hit on a natural 6 even with modifiers. So Orks could still suffer modifiers, but they can't be prevented for shooting outright.

-

The whole game should at the very least have 6's always pass. They did it with 1's and failure, they need to be consistent.

 Galef wrote:
Absolutely. What I am suggesting is to know exactly what the ideal targets are for Hemlocks, and position your units so that you have ideal counters near those ideal targets.
Basically force the Eldar player to "suicide" the Hemlocks or spend a few turns not using them.

Not super easy for non-mobile armies, but the tactic exists.
You can also target the Serpents as the Flyers themselves can't do jack for objectives. Destroy all the "ground" targets and play the waiting game on the objectives.

Side note for those who think the -1 trait is OP: What if the traits only worked outside 18" instead of 12"?
That additional 6" bubble really opens up more opportunities to ignore the whole army trait.
I can't think of another army trait in which the opponent has an ACTIVE ability to flat out ignore.

-

That is exactly how i would change those traits.

 Red Corsair wrote:
The whole game should at the very least have 6's always pass. They did it with 1's and failure, they need to be consistent.

Agreed.
I kind of agree too that -1 to hit penalties should not stack, but I'd amend that to "penalties to hit cannot be stacked beyond -2 to hit"

The reason for this is mainly the interaction between the -1 traits and moving with Heavy weapons. If you cannot stack them at all, then you essentially empower units with Heavy weapons to move as they please against enemies that already have -1 to be hit. That takes away the tactical decision to move or not move.
I agree -3 to hit and beyond is silly, but -2 is reasonable when you have multiple rules involved, especially if you have a "Always hits on natural 6" rule as part of the game.

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 Galef wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
The whole game should at the very least have 6's always pass. They did it with 1's and failure, they need to be consistent.

Agreed.
I kind of agree too that -1 to hit penalties should not stack, but I'd amend that to "penalties to hit cannot be stacked beyond -2 to hit"

The reason for this is mainly the interaction between the -1 traits and moving with Heavy weapons. If you cannot stack them at all, then you essentially empower units with Heavy weapons to move as they please against enemies that already have -1 to be hit. That takes away the tactical decision to move or not move.
I agree -3 to hit and beyond is silly, but -2 is reasonable when you have multiple rules involved, especially if you have a "Always hits on natural 6" rule as part of the game.

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Agreed, always hitting on 6s would make sense especially since they introduced "anything can wound anything". Having instances (and frequent ones in the case of orks) where units can literally not shoot despite having range and sight feels bad gameplay wise, especially with shooting being so strong this edition (and most editions). Im hoping maybe they introduce a "6s always hit" rule in the orks codex to see how it plays out

Hellhounds - a 16" autohit just removes the matter of -1 to hit completely. Beyond that charge them. This is surprisingly effective for marines as they are STR4 versus T3 Eldar, DE and other -1 to hit factions.

But with so many units that can fly, there are many that you can’t charge because either they have a rule or they are literally too far away to charge.

 davidgr33n wrote:
But with so many units that can fly, there are many that you can’t charge because either they have a rule or they are literally too far away to charge.

To clarify, units with FLY do not have this rule, but most units with the Battlefield Role: Flyer do.
So you cannot charge a Hemlock (a Flyer) unless you have Fly, but any unit can charge a Serpent (a unit with Fly)
An important difference to note.

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 Galef wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
The whole game should at the very least have 6's always pass. They did it with 1's and failure, they need to be consistent.

Agreed.
I kind of agree too that -1 to hit penalties should not stack, but I'd amend that to "penalties to hit cannot be stacked beyond -2 to hit"

The reason for this is mainly the interaction between the -1 traits and moving with Heavy weapons. If you cannot stack them at all, then you essentially empower units with Heavy weapons to move as they please against enemies that already have -1 to be hit. That takes away the tactical decision to move or not move.
I agree -3 to hit and beyond is silly, but -2 is reasonable when you have multiple rules involved, especially if you have a "Always hits on natural 6" rule as part of the game.

-

The moving and firing heavy weapons is a good point I hadn't considered, I actually wish they simply hadn't put so many varieties of -1 to hit. For example Alaitoc, raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Stygies could easily have counted as always being in cover if they don't advance like Jormungander for Nids. Conceal should have also provided cover especially when you consider reveal removes cover. The horse is already out the Barn though, so I think the easiest patch is definitely to cap the mods or to always grant 6's to hit as a success. The roll to hit could always remain higher like say 7+ for example in order to remove benefits like tesla. Currently being able to make units impossible to hit is far to easy for eldar specifically. An alaitoc hemlock with conceal cast and lightning fast reactions is at a -4 outside 12" which is beyond stupid.

 Red Corsair wrote:
An alaitoc hemlock with conceal cast and lightning fast reactions is at a -4 outside 12" which is beyond stupid.

I get your point, but I would like to point out that Hemlocks cannot cast Conceal anymore. They could in the Index, but the Codex only allows Hemlocks to cast the "malediction" half of any Runes of Battle power. And as Conceal only affects the caster (which is why it worked in the Index), Infantry or Bikes, you cannot have a nearby Warlock cast it on the Hemlock either.
Hemlock can at most have -3 to be hit and that requires a 2CP Strat that only works on 1 unit at a time. And it requires the Hemlock to be *almost* out of range to cast or use its weapons

This is actually true for ALL Eldar units. Flyers and Rangers come with -1 to hit, Alaitoc would stack for -2 and a SINGLE unit could benefit from Lightning Reflexes or Conceal to stack for -3
There's another Ranger specific Strat that make a single Ranger unit only be hit on 6s regardless of modifiers, but that's only going to affect that 1 Ranger unit.

Alaitoc is the only -1 ability in the codex that applies to all units
Lightening Reflexes only works for Infantry and units with FLY
*Conceal only works on Infantry and Bikes
*Vector engines only works on Advancing vehicles
---*so these are mutually exclusive

Rangers are the only unit in the Codex that can attain -4 to hit. All other units can only hope for -3 (and only 1-2 units ever in the same turn)
But why would you do that for a single Ranger unit, unless you were in a desperate situation.

Eldar have a LOT of -1 to hit rules, but MOST of them only stack with 1, maybe 2 other rules

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Yeah, I think it's less of a problem with -3 (which is somewhat rare as Galef points out) and more about having some very achievable -2 penalties.

I have a question. Which Drukhari units has - 1 to hit in the shooting fase?

Alex_85 wrote:
I have a question. Which Drukhari units has - 1 to hit in the shooting fase?

Venoms, Mandrakes and flyers mostly.

 Galef wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, I play Orkz and since GW doesn't know how to write a good ork codex since 4th edition my only answer to ANY question of targets is to throw boyz at it. I have faced armies where my ranged units were hitting on 6s or not at all. So much fun when one of your units you are paying points for can't even be used in the game because -2 to hit means you can't even legitimately hit your target.

Im really hoping they address this in the new codex. Im sure they can come up with a fluffy rule for most units to ignore - to hit modifiers. Something along the lines of "Orks barely aim and put so much dakka out to compensate that they always hit at their unmodified BS". Or something along those lines

Unmodified? No. There needs to be some modification, otherwise there would be zero reason to make a single Ork weapon Heavy.
What Orks need is an army-wide rule that they always hit on a natural 6 even with modifiers. So Orks could still suffer modifiers, but they can't be prevented for shooting outright.

-

A SM with -1 to hit is now suffering a 25% reduction in accuracy, a Ork with -1 to hit is suffering 50% reduction in accuracy. No, I am fine with orkz ALWAYS hitting on 5s.

 Galef wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
An alaitoc hemlock with conceal cast and lightning fast reactions is at a -4 outside 12" which is beyond stupid.

I get your point, but I would like to point out that Hemlocks cannot cast Conceal anymore. They could in the Index, but the Codex only allows Hemlocks to cast the "malediction" half of any Runes of Battle power. And as Conceal only affects the caster (which is why it worked in the Index), Infantry or Bikes, you cannot have a nearby Warlock cast it on the Hemlock either.
Hemlock can at most have -3 to be hit and that requires a 2CP Strat that only works on 1 unit at a time. And it requires the Hemlock to be *almost* out of range to cast or use its weapons

This is actually true for ALL Eldar units. Flyers and Rangers come with -1 to hit, Alaitoc would stack for -2 and a SINGLE unit could benefit from Lightning Reflexes or Conceal to stack for -3
There's another Ranger specific Strat that make a single Ranger unit only be hit on 6s regardless of modifiers, but that's only going to affect that 1 Ranger unit.

Alaitoc is the only -1 ability in the codex that applies to all units
Lightening Reflexes only works for Infantry and units with FLY
*Conceal only works on Infantry and Bikes
*Vector engines only works on Advancing vehicles
---*so these are mutually exclusive

Rangers are the only unit in the Codex that can attain -4 to hit. All other units can only hope for -3 (and only 1-2 units ever in the same turn)
But why would you do that for a single Ranger unit, unless you were in a desperate situation.

Eldar have a LOT of -1 to hit rules, but MOST of them only stack with 1, maybe 2 other rules

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They can actually get -7 naively (from core rules and their codex), -10 if using the Night Fight rules and -11 if you factor in other armies special rules.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/755125.page#9934401

 BaconCatBug wrote:
They can actually get -7 naively (from core rules and their codex), -10 if using the Night Fight rules and -11 if you factor in other armies special rules.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/755125.page#9934401

I am only referring to what they can get in the Codex only (i.e what is which the Eldar Player's control) If you add all though Core rules, technically EVERY army can get -3 (or so) to be hit, making it a GAME problem, not an ELDAR problem.
Either way, make natural 6s always hit and/or modifiers to hit only able to stack to a max -2 and BOTH problems are solved (or at the very least DRAMTICALLY bandaged)

I would also be ok with the -1 to hit Army traits to be changed to "units with this trait always receive +1 to armour save rolls as it they were in cover, even while in the open. If the unit is entirely within cover, it receives +2 instead". That change alone would make all the other -1 to hit rules much better to manage.

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1) Melee. When faced with -2 to hit then you should assault. Even with guardsmen.

2) Get into rapid fire range. When facing -2 to hit you should advance if you are not within 12".

3) Proper flyers with hard-to-hit and airborne it is better just to ignore. Grab VPs and kill his ground troops instead.

4) Anything that autohits is obviously good against negative hit-modifiers. Unfortunately flamers do too little damage to be worth it. But smite is good.

5) Deepstriking works great against negative hit modifiers, as you will generally get to shoot within 12". Just remember, that Deepstriking against Eldar is dangerous.

6) Speed is important against negative hit modifiers. A static gunline will just die. You need to play aggressive and get close, or grab some objectives and force him to come to you. But if it becomes a shootout, expect to lose.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, I play Orkz and since GW doesn't know how to write a good ork codex since 4th edition my only answer to ANY question of targets is to throw boyz at it. I have faced armies where my ranged units were hitting on 6s or not at all. So much fun when one of your units you are paying points for can't even be used in the game because -2 to hit means you can't even legitimately hit your target.

Im really hoping they address this in the new codex. Im sure they can come up with a fluffy rule for most units to ignore - to hit modifiers. Something along the lines of "Orks barely aim and put so much dakka out to compensate that they always hit at their unmodified BS". Or something along those lines

Unmodified? No. There needs to be some modification, otherwise there would be zero reason to make a single Ork weapon Heavy.
What Orks need is an army-wide rule that they always hit on a natural 6 even with modifiers. So Orks could still suffer modifiers, but they can't be prevented for shooting outright.

-

A SM with -1 to hit is now suffering a 25% reduction in accuracy, a Ork with -1 to hit is suffering 50% reduction in accuracy. No, I am fine with orkz ALWAYS hitting on 5s.

But SM with -1 to hit see a 50% increase in misses while a ork with -1 to hit only increaes misses by 25%.

Each -1 is a 17% reduction in the probability.
The underlying issue is having only a D6 limits the ability to scale things properly with a d10 or a d12 those -1 to hits would a 10% or 8% reduction in probability.

If you use a D12 with all requirements scaled as double the number required and take away 1 ie BS5+ becomes BS9+
BS4+ becomes BS 7+ -1 to hit mechanics at their current levels of prevalence arn't as game breaking.

Unfortunately untill GW switch away from the D6 system -1 to hits do need some work.

I would love them to switch to d12s. You can do so much more minorvdice modification.

Much better.

Ice_can wrote:


But SM with -1 to hit see a 50% increase in misses while a ork with -1 to hit only increaes misses by 25%.

Each -1 is a 17% reduction in the probability.
The underlying issue is having only a D6 limits the ability to scale things properly with a d10 or a d12 those -1 to hits would a 10% or 8% reduction in probability.

If you use a D12 with all requirements scaled as double the number required and take away 1 ie BS5+ becomes BS9+
BS4+ becomes BS 7+ -1 to hit mechanics at their current levels of prevalence arn't as game breaking.

Unfortunately untill GW switch away from the D6 system -1 to hits do need some work.

Well lets get into that, an ork shooting at -1 loses 50% of his damage output, a space marine loses 25% of his damage output. 100 space marines with bolters shooting at a T4 target at max range are going from 67 hits to 50 hits, 100 orkz shooting at a T4 target at max range are going from 67 hits to 33 hits. THAT is why damage output statistic is more important. You make it sound as if the loss to the SM is more important and damaging when the fact is that it is not true at all. Orkz lose 50% damage output, SMs lose 25, that is a huge deal. THAT is why orkz should always hit at full Ballistic skill. As for heavy weapons....yeah orkz don't really have any that we use right now, the only exception i can think of is lootas and nobody takes them in competitive games atm, maybe after the codex drops and they drastically increase their abilities.

SemperMortis wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


But SM with -1 to hit see a 50% increase in misses while a ork with -1 to hit only increaes misses by 25%.

Each -1 is a 17% reduction in the probability.
The underlying issue is having only a D6 limits the ability to scale things properly with a d10 or a d12 those -1 to hits would a 10% or 8% reduction in probability.

If you use a D12 with all requirements scaled as double the number required and take away 1 ie BS5+ becomes BS9+
BS4+ becomes BS 7+ -1 to hit mechanics at their current levels of prevalence arn't as game breaking.

Unfortunately untill GW switch away from the D6 system -1 to hits do need some work.

Well lets get into that, an ork shooting at -1 loses 50% of his damage output, a space marine loses 25% of his damage output. 100 space marines with bolters shooting at a T4 target at max range are going from 67 hits to 50 hits, 100 orkz shooting at a T4 target at max range are going from 67 hits to 33 hits. THAT is why damage output statistic is more important. You make it sound as if the loss to the SM is more important and damaging when the fact is that it is not true at all. Orkz lose 50% damage output, SMs lose 25, that is a huge deal. THAT is why orkz should always hit at full Ballistic skill. As for heavy weapons....yeah orkz don't really have any that we use right now, the only exception i can think of is lootas and nobody takes them in competitive games atm, maybe after the codex drops and they drastically increase their abilities.

Big difference is 100 tac marines is 1300points 100 orks are 600 points so guess what your 100 marines puts out 67 hits droping to 50.
1200points of orks (200) goes from 133 shots to 66 hits guess what they still outshoot marines with 100points left to spend.

I said GW have given out too many -1 to hit modifiers especially to eldar but that isn't an exclusively ork problem. Its a game wide issue that needs fixed not sticking plastered specially for orks

And the fix is very easy: Natural 6s should always hit regardless of modifiers, and hit modifiers can never stack beyond -2.