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I also like the idea of having the modifiers only appear outside of 18", rather than 12". Mostly because 18" would make it a lot tougher to charge from the protection of your -1 bubble.

 Tyr13 wrote:
I also like the idea of having the modifiers only appear outside of 18", rather than 12". Mostly because 18" would make it a lot tougher to charge from the protection of your -1 bubble.

You can't do that now. You can only declare charges to units within 12" of you, so the unit you are charging is already ignoring your -1 trait.

I feel like the intent behind the 12" bubble was to give the most protection in the first few rounds and since units that could arrive from reserves could initially do so on the first turn WITHIN that bubble, it appeared balance to GW. But arriving from reserves that close on the first turn was too easily abuse, so GW nerfed it, indirectly making -1 traits even more powerful.
Extending the bubble to 18" is a good fix that puts more options in the opponents control.
But I also like making the -1 army traits +1 to armour save rolls (as per cover) outside 12". It has roughly the same 17% negation affect, but can't be stacked with other -1 to hit abilities.

-

Orks deal really well with negative hit modifiers. Orks has lots of close range firepower and melee ability. And both are counters to -1 to hit. Nothing is more satisfying than facing an Alaitoc spam list with an army that has no long-range firepower.

Orks also deal really well with airborne flyers. Because we have nothing that can damage them we end up ignoring them and playing the mission. And that works out more often than not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Tyr13 wrote:
I also like the idea of having the modifiers only appear outside of 18", rather than 12". Mostly because 18" would make it a lot tougher to charge from the protection of your -1 bubble.

You can't do that now. You can only declare charges to units within 12" of you, so the unit you are charging is already ignoring your -1 trait.
-

You can move, shoot and then declare a charge. Most units in the game has an assault threat-range well over 12".

Theoretically the counters to it were Flamers and melee, but Flamers are garbage and nobody wants to run melee so they think the ability is just too powerful.

Best counter is +1 to hit

pismakron wrote:
Orks deal really well with negative hit modifiers. Orks has lots of close range firepower and melee ability. And both are counters to -1 to hit. Nothing is more satisfying than facing an Alaitoc spam list with an army that has no long-range firepower.

Orks also deal really well with airborne flyers. Because we have nothing that can damage them we end up ignoring them and playing the mission. And that works out more often than not.

So yet again, the best way to deal with any negative to hit modifiers is to not bring any ranged weapons at all and then attempt to assault your opponent.....Nothing like invalidating 3/4ths of the Ork codex am I right?

Your are going to bring -1 or -2 to hit modifiers? ok well I guess I wont bring, Lootas, Tankbustas, Kanz, Mek Gunz, Big Gunz, Flash Gitz, Stompa, Morkanaut, Gorkanaut, Shoota Boyz, Shokk Attack Gunz, etc etc etc.....and instead I'll bring boyz....and maybe a weirdboy or 3.

 Galef wrote:

 Tyr13 wrote:
I also like the idea of having the modifiers only appear outside of 18", rather than 12". Mostly because 18" would make it a lot tougher to charge from the protection of your -1 bubble.

You can't do that now. You can only declare charges to units within 12" of you, so the unit you are charging is already ignoring your -1 trait.

I feel like the intent behind the 12" bubble was to give the most protection in the first few rounds and since units that could arrive from reserves could initially do so on the first turn WITHIN that bubble, it appeared balance to GW. But arriving from reserves that close on the first turn was too easily abuse, so GW nerfed it, indirectly making -1 traits even more powerful.
Extending the bubble to 18" is a good fix that puts more options in the opponents control.
But I also like making the -1 army traits +1 to armour save rolls (as per cover) outside 12". It has roughly the same 17% negation affect, but can't be stacked with other -1 to hit abilities.

-

+1 armor instead of -1 strips away one of the primary reasons you take -1 to Hit though. It's not JUST about degrading BS. It's also about preventing re-rolls. If I'm fighting Space Marines, for example, it's a big nerf to receive +1 armor rather than negating his ability to all misses near a chapter master. They go from 3+ and all re-rolls to, effectively, 4+/5+ with re-rolls of 1's/2's.

SemperMortis wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Orks deal really well with negative hit modifiers. Orks has lots of close range firepower and melee ability. And both are counters to -1 to hit. Nothing is more satisfying than facing an Alaitoc spam list with an army that has no long-range firepower.

Orks also deal really well with airborne flyers. Because we have nothing that can damage them we end up ignoring them and playing the mission. And that works out more often than not.

So yet again, the best way to deal with any negative to hit modifiers is to not bring any ranged weapons at all and then attempt to assault your opponent.....Nothing like invalidating 3/4ths of the Ork codex am I right?

Your are going to bring -1 or -2 to hit modifiers? ok well I guess I wont bring, Lootas, Tankbustas, Kanz, Mek Gunz, Big Gunz, Flash Gitz, Stompa, Morkanaut, Gorkanaut, Shoota Boyz, Shokk Attack Gunz, etc etc etc.....and instead I'll bring boyz....and maybe a weirdboy or 3.

Yes that's pretty much it. Bring 180-200 boyz and some characters. If you bring Lootas, Kanz, Battlewagons, Stompas, Manz, Morkanauts, Stompas, Dreadnoughts you are just helping your opponent to win. You don't have to like it, but you know that it is mostly true.

pismakron wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Orks deal really well with negative hit modifiers. Orks has lots of close range firepower and melee ability. And both are counters to -1 to hit. Nothing is more satisfying than facing an Alaitoc spam list with an army that has no long-range firepower.

Orks also deal really well with airborne flyers. Because we have nothing that can damage them we end up ignoring them and playing the mission. And that works out more often than not.

So yet again, the best way to deal with any negative to hit modifiers is to not bring any ranged weapons at all and then attempt to assault your opponent.....Nothing like invalidating 3/4ths of the Ork codex am I right?

Your are going to bring -1 or -2 to hit modifiers? ok well I guess I wont bring, Lootas, Tankbustas, Kanz, Mek Gunz, Big Gunz, Flash Gitz, Stompa, Morkanaut, Gorkanaut, Shoota Boyz, Shokk Attack Gunz, etc etc etc.....and instead I'll bring boyz....and maybe a weirdboy or 3.

Yes that's pretty much it. Bring 180-200 boyz and some characters. If you bring Lootas, Kanz, Battlewagons, Stompas, Manz, Morkanauts, Stompas, Dreadnoughts you are just helping your opponent to win. You don't have to like it, but you know that it is mostly true.

Which brings me back to the point that most of us are TIRED of playing a ridiculous horde, especially now that power creep has brought us to the point where we aren't even trying to kill the enemy, merely to hide long enough to make it to the end of the game and win on objectives....that isn't a fun play style

SemperMortis wrote:

pismakron wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Orks deal really well with negative hit modifiers. Orks has lots of close range firepower and melee ability. And both are counters to -1 to hit. Nothing is more satisfying than facing an Alaitoc spam list with an army that has no long-range firepower.

Orks also deal really well with airborne flyers. Because we have nothing that can damage them we end up ignoring them and playing the mission. And that works out more often than not.

So yet again, the best way to deal with any negative to hit modifiers is to not bring any ranged weapons at all and then attempt to assault your opponent.....Nothing like invalidating 3/4ths of the Ork codex am I right?

Your are going to bring -1 or -2 to hit modifiers? ok well I guess I wont bring, Lootas, Tankbustas, Kanz, Mek Gunz, Big Gunz, Flash Gitz, Stompa, Morkanaut, Gorkanaut, Shoota Boyz, Shokk Attack Gunz, etc etc etc.....and instead I'll bring boyz....and maybe a weirdboy or 3.

Yes that's pretty much it. Bring 180-200 boyz and some characters. If you bring Lootas, Kanz, Battlewagons, Stompas, Manz, Morkanauts, Stompas, Dreadnoughts you are just helping your opponent to win. You don't have to like it, but you know that it is mostly true.

Which brings me back to the point that most of us are TIRED of playing a ridiculous horde, especially now that power creep has brought us to the point where we aren't even trying to kill the enemy, merely to hide long enough to make it to the end of the game and win on objectives....that isn't a fun play style

You're next on the line to get a new dex the changes are coming what more do you want at this point?

 SHUPPET wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

pismakron wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Orks deal really well with negative hit modifiers. Orks has lots of close range firepower and melee ability. And both are counters to -1 to hit. Nothing is more satisfying than facing an Alaitoc spam list with an army that has no long-range firepower.

Orks also deal really well with airborne flyers. Because we have nothing that can damage them we end up ignoring them and playing the mission. And that works out more often than not.

So yet again, the best way to deal with any negative to hit modifiers is to not bring any ranged weapons at all and then attempt to assault your opponent.....Nothing like invalidating 3/4ths of the Ork codex am I right?

Your are going to bring -1 or -2 to hit modifiers? ok well I guess I wont bring, Lootas, Tankbustas, Kanz, Mek Gunz, Big Gunz, Flash Gitz, Stompa, Morkanaut, Gorkanaut, Shoota Boyz, Shokk Attack Gunz, etc etc etc.....and instead I'll bring boyz....and maybe a weirdboy or 3.

Yes that's pretty much it. Bring 180-200 boyz and some characters. If you bring Lootas, Kanz, Battlewagons, Stompas, Manz, Morkanauts, Stompas, Dreadnoughts you are just helping your opponent to win. You don't have to like it, but you know that it is mostly true.

Which brings me back to the point that most of us are TIRED of playing a ridiculous horde, especially now that power creep has brought us to the point where we aren't even trying to kill the enemy, merely to hide long enough to make it to the end of the game and win on objectives....that isn't a fun play style

You're next on the line to get a new dex the changes are coming what more do you want at this point?

To not have to go 10 years without a decent codex. To not have to wait 3 editions to get a codex, and then when it comes out it is one if not the worst. Not asking too much am I?

SemperMortis wrote:


Which brings me back to the point that most of us are TIRED of playing a ridiculous horde, especially now that power creep has brought us to the point where we aren't even trying to kill the enemy, merely to hide long enough to make it to the end of the game and win on objectives....that isn't a fun play style

Yes I agree it gets old quickly. But this thread is about negative hit modifiers, and nothing is more satisfying than countering an abusive Alaitoc list with a pure green tide. Otherwise I agree, the 200 model objective camping is pretty tedious.

To answer the title of the thread, here are all the - 1 to hit i commonly see:
-Smoke launchers on imperial vehicles (mostly used by rhinos)
-All dark eldar vehicles seems to have it built in?
-Raven guard infantry and dredds beyond 12"
-Alaitoc (almost every eldar player) beyond 12"
-eldar rangers beyond 12"
-tyranids near venomthropes
-carnifexes with spores upgrades
-some psychich powers
-all fast flyers for every faction
-harlequin vehicles

I'd say they are pretty common.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Best counters would be high bs, autohits or close combat
The problem is when the ability is combined with another strengh, wich leaves little options for counters. Examples would be a fast unit, then close combat is no longer a usefull option. Or lots of wounds and T, making flamer auto hits not usefull. Or just the lack of high bs units in your army (moslty orks)

There are some psychic powers giving -1 to hit as well.