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w1zard wrote:

 Overread wrote:

w1zard wrote:

And I still think GW needs to come out and just straight up say that FW needs to be treated the same way as codex armies. I think that if the pro-FW people could quote an official GW source on that, it would solve a lot of arguments.

Thing is that's only going to work "online". If GW wants FW to be mainstream the most simplistic way is to simply print the rules inside the relevant army codex and then to print data-slate releases for future FW models in the very same way that they do for regular model releases.

So long as FW models remain within a separate book (Imperial Armour) then there will always be the potential view of taking FW as an expansion to the core rules set of the game rather than a default inclusion that many here want/see it to be

Agreed.

But then you are going to get people saying that "goes against the idea of forgeworld" to have "exclusive" models' rules printed in the normal codex. To which my response is still the same "you can't have your cake at eat it too". Either FW is a part of the base game in which case the models shouldn't be any harder to get than normal GW models (they aren't really with the ease of online ordering), and the rules should be condensed into one spot (codex), OR forgeworld is an optional "expansion". You can't have both.

So, you're saying that models that are in codexes or are "core" parts of the game should be just as easy to get and find?

Tell that to the Sisters of Battle.
Tell that to Inquisition.
Tell that to Basilisks, most Wall of Martyrs kits, and Land Raider Terminus Ultras (not in stores, in most places - order only).
Tell that to the Land Raider Excelsior and Rhino Primaris, units in the SM Index (and maybe Codex too), but can only be bought at WHW.

Are they all "expansions" to the game?

ValentineGames wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:I don´t like your tone. Consider yourself ignored.

You might not like his tone, and a lot of people don't, but he's not lying.

You can shut out people, but it doesn't make you right and them wrong.
In fact, this whole idea that you can "ignore" people because you disagree with them is exactly how the whole Forge World debate came about: people talking about FW from a position of relative ignorance and ignoring more recent and/or factual data.

Of course, you can always ignore people - no-one can force you to hear someone out, but refusing to? Depending on context, that doesn't give you the right to be immune from criticism.

Err....I never said that though. So I dunno why I've been quoted saying it...

Huh. That's odd.

Absolutely isn't you I was addressing, my most sincere apologies!

w1zard wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

not to be mean, i can understand the feeling and animosity, but considering you were 15 which is old enough to decide yourself on most questions and decisions, i am sorry but that one is still on you.
Also you were in your FLGS, were there no other players/ shopkeeper in there? No one to oversee the matches and tables that could've told that guy to feck off?
Frankly if the later is the case, then i feel really sorry for you. Nobody should've to put up with such an asshat inthis hobby. It is enough that GW can't write non toxic rules as is.

I was also new to the hobby and the guy was much older than me in his 30s so I believed him. Yeah taking him at face value was probably pretty dumb, but hindsight is 20/20. You do also realize you're blaming a 15 year old for being fooled by an adult right?

You had a bad experience. I can speak from my own personal account that I've been duped like that in games before. I was 14, doubled game, my teammate was 13, playing two adults. 6th edition, and they had said my Whirlwind didn't fire Large Blasts, it fired small blast templates. Of course, I believed them, and in the next game, I put down a small blast, and the people playing said that it was, in fact, a Large Blast (Ordnance rule). So yeah, I'd been duped, of my own Codex unit.

You know what I did? I got over it, realised that the guy was TFG, and made sure that I always either knew the rules, or made sure they could show me. No rules, no game.

I'm sorry for your experience, but you've put your blame on the wrong thing, and unfortunately, it's unfair on the people who have done nothing wrong, save for playing FW (which is bad i your eyes). Can you understand why people say that your argument is an illogical one?

I have no problem playing FW as long as you bring the rules to show me. I know the "FW OP" complaint is mostly based on a few rare imbalanced choices and/or people misunderstanding rules (on purpose or not).

The problem for me is more to do with how FW makes tons more units for armies that already have all the necessary stuff to choose from, though I can see how it makes sense to invest in the popular armies.

Caederes wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Oh, it's the thread about pro FW zealots piling on everyone who dares post anything but "all hail FW" again.

Can you please take the time to answer the question I posed above?

a). You're welcome

I will play against someone with FW models (and do so all the time), but I do not use them myself (not counting bitz I guess). I enjoy seeing a fully realized FW army such as DkoK, but I find the higher points levels FW models a little over the top for pick up games and even tournaments. I am not talking about Warlords but those 500-600 models. This feeling against such FW models is diminished somewhat by mainstream GW use of Primarchs and Knights, but it is still there for me.

I find that most FW I encounter are dreadnoughts. There are so many mainstream GW dreadnoughts - why the need to use FW ones? The same for things like Earthshaker carriages - why not just use Basilisks?

I also find that most of those "FW" dreads I see are really just normal Dreads using FW rules, so it doesn't seem to be about cool the FW models look. I also do not enjoy seeing recasts/scratch-built models of FW, but I play against them to. Its a cost of doing business I suppose.

I would happily play in a no-FW tournament or one that had a single-model PL cap. Having said that I happily play in tournaments that do allow FW.

I do think that folks who bring FW (and mainstream GW LoW) to open gaming should have a pre-game conversation with their opponent, especially if they have never played each other before. Even if its just "I have a 500 point FW Daemon or supertank/Knight in my list that, are you OK facing that?" The same things goes for people bring Knights, a Primarch or a super-tooled up Tourney list that they are testing. If I am testing my tourney list at open gaming I will tell my opponent and have a Plan B army list in my case if they are new player trying out 2000 point open gaming for the first time.

Stux wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Oh, it's the thread about pro FW zealots piling on everyone who dares post anything but "all hail FW" again.

You realise by lumping all people on one side of the debate together like that comes across just as bad right?

Personally I see Forgeworld as legitimate in any 40k. People are free to play their games however they want, but to me the baseline is that Forgeworld should be allowed. The player must of course have the correct rules!

Yeah, I've tried to argue in multiple threads like this previously. Feel free to look up my argument there. As the poll proves, most people, including me, have no issue with FW whatsoever.

It's always the same people chanting their "FW IS GREAT! YOU SHALL NOT DENY FW!" mantra while going on a witch hunt for anyone who dare defy their one and only Emperor of Resinkind.

Might as well try to convince anti-vaxers of not endangering their children.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ValentineGames wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Oh, it's the thread about pro FW zealots piling on everyone who dares post anything but "all hail FW" again.

As apposed to the thread about anti FW zealots who pile on everyone who dares post anything but "all curse FW...and the codex options" again...

Oh, please do provide a link. I don't think we have had one of those since 6th.

That you even think that there are such threads pretty much proves my point. Your pro FW rage is making you blind... to the very poll sitting on the top of this page.

 Jidmah wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Oh, it's the thread about pro FW zealots piling on everyone who dares post anything but "all hail FW" again.

You realise by lumping all people on one side of the debate together like that comes across just as bad right?

Personally I see Forgeworld as legitimate in any 40k. People are free to play their games however they want, but to me the baseline is that Forgeworld should be allowed. The player must of course have the correct rules!

Yeah, I've tried to argue in multiple threads like this previously. Feel free to look up my argument there. As the poll proves, most people, including me, have no issue with FW whatsoever.

It's always the same people chanting their "FW IS GREAT! YOU SHALL NOT DENY FW!" mantra while going on a witch hunt for anyone who dare defy their one and only Emperor of Resinkind.

Might as well try to convince anti-vaxers of not endangering their children.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ValentineGames wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Oh, it's the thread about pro FW zealots piling on everyone who dares post anything but "all hail FW" again.

As apposed to the thread about anti FW zealots who pile on everyone who dares post anything but "all curse FW...and the codex options" again...

Oh, please do provide a link. I don't think we have had one of those since 6th.

That you even think that there are such threads pretty much proves my point. Your pro FW rage is making you blind... to the very poll sitting on the top of this page.

Okay, here you go.

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

Situation B is worse than A. Not all but many FW users like to get the jump on unsuspecting players with their shiny resin toys.

 Strg Alt wrote:


Not all but many FW users like to get the jump on unsuspecting players with their shiny resin toys.

This is based on your extensive experience playing in an area where you say your friends refuse to use FW I assume?

 Strg Alt wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

Situation B is worse than A. Not all but many FW users like to get the jump on unsuspecting players with their shiny resin toys.

So would you be ok if your opponent handed over the rules, so that you knew exactly what the unit's rules were, and knew exactly what you were up against?

I dont like playing against FW personally. If I have a question about a unit, I rather like reading the unit entry. not a "trust me this is how it works, it has X wounds" or a screen shot on their phone that I have to look through, zoom, half read blurry text. or their Tablet just happens to be dead. No books to read through.
This is just me. I havent played a game against FW units that I can sit and read the rules easily. I havent turned down a game for it, but I already know from the start that I am going to have a rough time. It sucked charging against a unit, only to find out after it was done, that it has many, many special rules that make it nigh unkillable in combat, and my unit just died for no reason when I could have tried avoiding it.

 conker249 wrote:
I dont like playing against FW personally. If I have a question about a unit, I rather like reading the unit entry. not a "trust me this is how it works, it has X wounds" or a screen shot on their phone that I have to look through, zoom, half read blurry text. or their Tablet just happens to be dead. No books to read through.
This is just me. I havent played a game against FW units that I can sit and read the rules easily. I havent turned down a game for it, but I already know from the start that I am going to have a rough time. It sucked charging against a unit, only to find out after it was done, that it has many, many special rules that make it nigh unkillable in combat, and my unit just died for no reason when I could have tried avoiding it.

What unit was this?

 Strg Alt wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

Situation B is worse than A. Not all but many FW users like to get the jump on unsuspecting players with their shiny resin toys.

having played this game for 5 editions in a dozen different towns, I have never seen or experienced this.

More to the point, ask them for the rules before the game...how is that any different than a new codex or new WD unit or the like? Ive seen people try and cheat with rules claiming they are Forgeworld, but ive never seen someonr show up and play "surprise!" with FW, and if that had been anyones plan, pretty much everyone asks to see the rules first anyway.

 conker249 wrote:
I dont like playing against FW personally. If I have a question about a unit, I rather like reading the unit entry. not a "trust me this is how it works, it has X wounds" or a screen shot on their phone that I have to look through, zoom, half read blurry text. or their Tablet just happens to be dead. No books to read through.
This is just me. I havent played a game against FW units that I can sit and read the rules easily. I havent turned down a game for it, but I already know from the start that I am going to have a rough time. It sucked charging against a unit, only to find out after it was done, that it has many, many special rules that make it nigh unkillable in combat, and my unit just died for no reason when I could have tried avoiding it.

This is actually the pretty standard universal FW turnoff story. Someone shows up with something, makes up their own rules or uses incorrect rules, and then it leaves a bad taste in everyones mouth about FW. Ultimately however, this isn't an issue with FW, it's an issue with people not having their appropriate gaming materials or outright cheating.

Dont play it if they dont have their rules. Goes for anything, not just FW.

Of all the cheating or general unscrupulous behavior I've seen or experienced in my years of gaming, I'm always impressed with the 40k community's ability to top them all.

In general im good with FW, but I would want to see the rules for them before the game since im not too familiar with what most FW units do.

 Jidmah wrote:
Your pro FW rage is making you blind... to the very poll sitting on the top of this page.

Show us on the doll where the FW model touched you...after killing your dog...and cancelling Christmas.

 JamesY wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

Situation B is worse than A. Not all but many FW users like to get the jump on unsuspecting players with their shiny resin toys.

So would you be ok if your opponent handed over the rules, so that you knew exactly what the unit's rules were, and knew exactly what you were up against?

Sure, why not. But if the model´s rules/point cost are ludicrous then I would still decline the game. And according to the FLGS player base, those rules/points are often obnoxious. My hobby time is limited nowadays and I don´t want to waste it with a shoddy battle. My approach to 40K games are like this:

1) Declare armies
2) Declare points
3) Declare scenario
4) Declare army composition

40K has so many units of differing strengths that blind pick-up games are pretty useless for a fun game imo.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

Situation B is worse than A. Not all but many FW users like to get the jump on unsuspecting players with their shiny resin toys.

So would you be ok if your opponent handed over the rules, so that you knew exactly what the unit's rules were, and knew exactly what you were up against?

Sure, why not. But if the model´s rules/point cost are ludicrous then I would still decline the game. And according to the FLGS player base, those rules/points are often obnoxious. My hobby time is limited nowadays and I don´t want to waste it with a shoddy battle. My approach to 40K games are like this:

1) Declare armies
2) Declare points
3) Declare scenario
4) Declare army composition

40K has so many units of differing strengths that blind pick-up games are pretty useless for a fun game imo.

So basically you list tailor every game?

That's not how most people play the game.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

Situation B is worse than A. Not all but many FW users like to get the jump on unsuspecting players with their shiny resin toys.

having played this game for 5 editions in a dozen different towns, I have never seen or experienced this.

More to the point, ask them for the rules before the game...how is that any different than a new codex or new WD unit or the like? Ive seen people try and cheat with rules claiming they are Forgeworld, but ive never seen someonr show up and play "surprise!" with FW, and if that had been anyones plan, pretty much everyone asks to see the rules first anyway.

 conker249 wrote:
I dont like playing against FW personally. If I have a question about a unit, I rather like reading the unit entry. not a "trust me this is how it works, it has X wounds" or a screen shot on their phone that I have to look through, zoom, half read blurry text. or their Tablet just happens to be dead. No books to read through.
This is just me. I havent played a game against FW units that I can sit and read the rules easily. I havent turned down a game for it, but I already know from the start that I am going to have a rough time. It sucked charging against a unit, only to find out after it was done, that it has many, many special rules that make it nigh unkillable in combat, and my unit just died for no reason when I could have tried avoiding it.

This is actually the pretty standard universal FW turnoff story. Someone shows up with something, makes up their own rules or uses incorrect rules, and then it leaves a bad taste in everyones mouth about FW. Ultimately however, this isn't an issue with FW, it's an issue with people not having their appropriate gaming materials or outright cheating.

Dont play it if they dont have their rules. Goes for anything, not just FW.

Rules on a smartphone or tablet are a no-go for me. You will have to have your books present to have a game.

Seems to me If you’re playing with a FW model (not just FW doors on your Land Raider), that it might be in your interest to provide said rules to your opponent. Perhaps print the Data fax, and have it where you can hand it over with all relevant rules and give them a chance to study it and see what it does, and keep it as a reference in the game?

 Strg Alt wrote:


Rules on a smartphone or tablet are a no-go for me. You will have to have your books present to have a game.

Why? It's 2018 mate. Plenty of companies (GW included) have digital versions of their books and/or apps. This is the way the wind has been blowing for some time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reemule wrote:
Seems to me If you’re playing with a FW model (not just FW doors on your Land Raider), that it might be in your interest to provide said rules to your opponent. Perhaps print the Data fax, and have it where you can hand it over with all relevant rules and give them a chance to study it and see what it does, and keep it as a reference in the game?

So, like literally every other unit in your army?

Why do people think players go around with no rules? If someone has no rules for their model you tell them to jog on, FW or not.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

Situation B is worse than A. Not all but many FW users like to get the jump on unsuspecting players with their shiny resin toys.

So would you be ok if your opponent handed over the rules, so that you knew exactly what the unit's rules were, and knew exactly what you were up against?

Sure, why not. But if the model´s rules/point cost are ludicrous then I would still decline the game. And according to the FLGS player base, those rules/points are often obnoxious. My hobby time is limited nowadays and I don´t want to waste it with a shoddy battle. My approach to 40K games are like this:

1) Declare armies
2) Declare points
3) Declare scenario
4) Declare army composition

40K has so many units of differing strengths that blind pick-up games are pretty useless for a fun game imo.

So basically you list tailor every game?

That's not how most people play the game.

There is no list tailoring involved. Both players know of all participating units in the game in advance. As I already started, it always ensures a good game for me and my acquaintance.

 Strg Alt wrote:


Rules on a smartphone or tablet are a no-go for me. You will have to have your books present to have a game.

While I dont have an issue with demanding people have their proper rules, GW (and FW) do sell their books in electronic formats.

Living in the 21st century, when much of GW's content is digital (and many competitor games have entirely digital rules), that seems a bit extreme.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:


Rules on a smartphone or tablet are a no-go for me. You will have to have your books present to have a game.

While I dont have an issue with demanding people have their proper rules, GW (and FW) do sell their books in electronic formats.

Living in the 21st century, when much of GW's content is digital (and many competitor games have entirely digital rules), that seems a bit extreme.

Why don´t you prefer books?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 conker249 wrote:
I dont like playing against FW personally. If I have a question about a unit, I rather like reading the unit entry. not a "trust me this is how it works, it has X wounds" or a screen shot on their phone that I have to look through, zoom, half read blurry text. or their Tablet just happens to be dead. No books to read through.
This is just me. I havent played a game against FW units that I can sit and read the rules easily. I havent turned down a game for it, but I already know from the start that I am going to have a rough time. It sucked charging against a unit, only to find out after it was done, that it has many, many special rules that make it nigh unkillable in combat, and my unit just died for no reason when I could have tried avoiding it.

What unit was this?

It was a blood slaughterer of Khorne If I remember. I thought a full unit of powerswords, lightning claws. and heavy Thunderhammers would work well against it. The 10 Attacks, strength 10, -3AP, 3 damage said otherwise. and the regen. Call me stupid for thinking that I could take it on. I know it isnt my opponents job to warn me about units, but it really put a damper on the game when I am being told that the slaughterer sucks the whole game.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:


Rules on a smartphone or tablet are a no-go for me. You will have to have your books present to have a game.

While I dont have an issue with demanding people have their proper rules, GW (and FW) do sell their books in electronic formats.

Living in the 21st century, when much of GW's content is digital (and many competitor games have entirely digital rules), that seems a bit extreme.

Why don´t you prefer books?

Personally? I play like a dozen game systems, most of which require around a dozen models. I can bring 7-8 different games in my bag pretty trivially and be available to play whatever someone is up for, but a big part of that is because all my rules are collected in the same little tablet. Also, books aren't at all laid out in a way that's convenient for gameplay. Flipping across pages of rules for models that aren't part of my army, or worse yet, having to flip between statlines and weapon profiles is a disaster. Digital solutions steamline and speed up gameplay immensely.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:


Rules on a smartphone or tablet are a no-go for me. You will have to have your books present to have a game.

While I dont have an issue with demanding people have their proper rules, GW (and FW) do sell their books in electronic formats.

Living in the 21st century, when much of GW's content is digital (and many competitor games have entirely digital rules), that seems a bit extreme.

Why don´t you prefer books?

I dont care either way, though ebooks are cheaper and carrying around lots of books gets old (especially now that GW has gone all in on hardcovers).

But either way, again, GW and FW do sell their rules in ebook format, new units and errata and FAQ are released via PDF, you're going to have a smartphone or tablet most likely anyway, demanding people have physical books is a wee bit...odd.

that was how sisters of battle were in 7th, digital only. I was not allowed to play them at my store in the tournament. I was told the PDF's are "too easy to modify and change". This is a local small Tournament with local players, less than 10 people. I was irritated that I was no longer allowed to play my army. I don't play at that store anymore since a new LGS opened up and are nice.

 conker249 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 conker249 wrote:
I dont like playing against FW personally. If I have a question about a unit, I rather like reading the unit entry. not a "trust me this is how it works, it has X wounds" or a screen shot on their phone that I have to look through, zoom, half read blurry text. or their Tablet just happens to be dead. No books to read through.
This is just me. I havent played a game against FW units that I can sit and read the rules easily. I havent turned down a game for it, but I already know from the start that I am going to have a rough time. It sucked charging against a unit, only to find out after it was done, that it has many, many special rules that make it nigh unkillable in combat, and my unit just died for no reason when I could have tried avoiding it.

What unit was this?

It was a blood slaughterer of Khorne If I remember. I thought a full unit of powerswords, lightning claws. and heavy Thunderhammers would work well against it. The 10 Attacks, strength 10, -3AP, 3 damage said otherwise. and the regen. Call me stupid for thinking that I could take it on. I know it isnt my opponents job to warn me about units, but it really put a damper on the game when I am being told that the slaughterer sucks the whole game.

It has 9 attacks at most, unless it is World Eaters (then it's 10).

None of the rules you mentioned make it "nigh unkillable". They're offensive things, not defensive. Defensively it's literally a Rhino, with a 5++ and heals 1 wound per battle round. Hardly "unkillable".

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:


Rules on a smartphone or tablet are a no-go for me. You will have to have your books present to have a game.

While I dont have an issue with demanding people have their proper rules, GW (and FW) do sell their books in electronic formats.

Living in the 21st century, when much of GW's content is digital (and many competitor games have entirely digital rules), that seems a bit extreme.

Why don´t you prefer books?

I dont care either way, though ebooks are cheaper and carrying around lots of books gets old (especially now that GW has gone all in on hardcovers).

But either way, again, GW and FW do sell their rules in ebook format, new units and errata and FAQ are released via PDF, you're going to have a smartphone or tablet most likely anyway, demanding people have physical books is a wee bit...odd.

Most people in my FLGS still use books. It is not such an outlandish idea as you might think. I don´t need energy and my view is not constrained to a small screen. It is also much easier to handle.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 conker249 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 conker249 wrote:
I dont like playing against FW personally. If I have a question about a unit, I rather like reading the unit entry. not a "trust me this is how it works, it has X wounds" or a screen shot on their phone that I have to look through, zoom, half read blurry text. or their Tablet just happens to be dead. No books to read through.
This is just me. I havent played a game against FW units that I can sit and read the rules easily. I havent turned down a game for it, but I already know from the start that I am going to have a rough time. It sucked charging against a unit, only to find out after it was done, that it has many, many special rules that make it nigh unkillable in combat, and my unit just died for no reason when I could have tried avoiding it.

What unit was this?

It was a blood slaughterer of Khorne If I remember. I thought a full unit of powerswords, lightning claws. and heavy Thunderhammers would work well against it. The 10 Attacks, strength 10, -3AP, 3 damage said otherwise. and the regen. Call me stupid for thinking that I could take it on. I know it isnt my opponents job to warn me about units, but it really put a damper on the game when I am being told that the slaughterer sucks the whole game.

It has 9 attacks at most, unless it is World Eaters (then it's 10).

None of the rules you mentioned make it "nigh unkillable". They're offensive things, not defensive. Defensively it's literally a Rhino, with a 5++ and heals 1 wound per battle round. Hardly "unkillable".

Dude. it was for me that match, In that match, the best defense was a great offense, a FW unit, without anything to read of or know about it, taking the word of someone saying that they get 10 attacks, strength 10, plenty of wounds, that heals. It was nigh unkillable FOR ME at the time. Learning these little "tidbits" in the fight itself, was frustrating. Again, i said personally. call me stupid for thinking I could take it on without knowing anything that the unit could do at all. This does not change anything about how I personally think of forgeworld.