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I don't think I've played a game of 8th without using at least 1 FW unit. My lists are never cheesy or spammed units, I use the FW stuff because I like how it looks and don't really care if it's better than GW equivalent. the only problem I've ever had is when I used my rapier with laser destroyer against a super spammer. he didn't like the fact that it had additional damage depending on what # was rolled, yet he was running rowboat with Hellblaster spam.

I would never bring a FW super heavy or similarly OP unit to a pickup game.

 conker249 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 conker249 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 conker249 wrote:
I dont like playing against FW personally. If I have a question about a unit, I rather like reading the unit entry. not a "trust me this is how it works, it has X wounds" or a screen shot on their phone that I have to look through, zoom, half read blurry text. or their Tablet just happens to be dead. No books to read through.
This is just me. I havent played a game against FW units that I can sit and read the rules easily. I havent turned down a game for it, but I already know from the start that I am going to have a rough time. It sucked charging against a unit, only to find out after it was done, that it has many, many special rules that make it nigh unkillable in combat, and my unit just died for no reason when I could have tried avoiding it.

What unit was this?

It was a blood slaughterer of Khorne If I remember. I thought a full unit of powerswords, lightning claws. and heavy Thunderhammers would work well against it. The 10 Attacks, strength 10, -3AP, 3 damage said otherwise. and the regen. Call me stupid for thinking that I could take it on. I know it isnt my opponents job to warn me about units, but it really put a damper on the game when I am being told that the slaughterer sucks the whole game.

It has 9 attacks at most, unless it is World Eaters (then it's 10).

None of the rules you mentioned make it "nigh unkillable". They're offensive things, not defensive. Defensively it's literally a Rhino, with a 5++ and heals 1 wound per battle round. Hardly "unkillable".

Dude. it was for me that match, In that match, the best defense was a great offense, a FW unit, without anything to read of or know about it, taking the word of someone saying that they get 10 attacks, strength 10, plenty of wounds, that heals. It was nigh unkillable FOR ME at the time. Learning these little "tidbits" in the fight itself, was frustrating. Again, i said personally. call me stupid for thinking I could take it on without knowing anything that the unit could do at all. This does not change anything about how I personally think of forgeworld.

Alright, alright, sorry.

I just think "unkillable" is the wrong adjective; it's similar to saying how a defiler is "unkillable" because it gets 4 Str 16 attacks and 3 Str 12 attacks. Except that defiler is far more durable, isn't forced in to Khorne to do that (though it could be), and has real shooting attacks to boot.

I'm 100% for FW, but Peregrine, for your blogs I see you are a very experienced painter and modeller that has a very, very big knowledge about working with resin, but you lose credibility when you say that working with resin, or FW resin, is just the same as working with HIPS plastic.

To caesar what is caesar's, Resin has better detail, but in price, ease of use, etc... Plastic wins without a doubt.

Personally I find resin fairly easy to work with. The only thing I dread is detail loss due to bubbles (thankfully rare) or a super bad warp (and honestly if its seriously bad on either of those its worth replacing the part instead of repair).

It scrapes easy for removing mould lines; it glues very easily (almost as easy as plastic and easier than metal - though of course big connections benefit from pinning) and holds great, sharp detail.

I'd actually say its a hard neck and neck battle between resin and plastic for me when it comes to ease of working with.



At least when comparing GW plastics and FW or Spartan Games Resin.



I'd say the worst I've worked with is Privateer Press plastic; its just a touch too tough to be easy to scrape in my experience. I could also throw in Hawk Wargames plastic/resin hybrid material as being equally tough (though with them its more the supreme high detail that makes it a very very careful bit of work to clean up)

I love FW Resin; I've found it easier to work with than GW plastics.

For GW, if you want to repose, you have to cut and replace. Heat-gunning the plastic just makes it warp weirdly, like it was unstable in the first place or something.

Forge World resin, on the other hand, responds beautifully to heat-guns, allowing for gentle reposing (an ankle here, an elbow there, etc), while also cutting fairly cleanly, being easily sanded/drilled, and not being super brittle (generally. Weirdly, I've gotten some brittle casts for no reason).

Just don't breathe in the poison, and you're golden.

 conker249 wrote:
that was how sisters of battle were in 7th, digital only. I was not allowed to play them at my store in the tournament. I was told the PDF's are "too easy to modify and change". This is a local small Tournament with local players, less than 10 people. I was irritated that I was no longer allowed to play my army. I don't play at that store anymore since a new LGS opened up and are nice.

I do not properly comprehend how play groups get to this point. Play by the rules, allow your opponent to do the same, play your game and win or lose, have fun with it. It's not that hard.

 LunarSol wrote:

 conker249 wrote:
that was how sisters of battle were in 7th, digital only. I was not allowed to play them at my store in the tournament. I was told the PDF's are "too easy to modify and change". This is a local small Tournament with local players, less than 10 people. I was irritated that I was no longer allowed to play my army. I don't play at that store anymore since a new LGS opened up and are nice.

I do not properly comprehend how play groups get to this point. Play by the rules, allow your opponent to do the same, play your game and win or lose, have fun with it. It's not that hard.

At that time I asked him why. He said because they are easy to change and modify on the spot. He heard of a story from a larger tournament where A player modified his PDF into more powerful units, and that the TO took the E-reader, and changed the bolters strength down to 1 inside the PDF, and the guy was banned from the tournament after it. I called him out, handing my E-reader to him to show me how easy it was. He didn't take me up on it, but it didnt change that I couldnt play Sisters of Battle once they got their Digital update to 7th. Prior to 7th edition when we only had the WD codex, one of the "founding members" of the gaming club, which you had to be chosen and voted into to be part of, YELLED across the room saying I couldnt play my sisters of battle unless I had the original White dwarfs that they were in. I laughed sarcastically, holding my books in the air. The player base there was just Toxic. From what I heard, their player base is dwindling. its been about 3 years since I played there.

Now that just sucks, also since the rules were online shouldn’t the store have had easy access to the rules?

 Strg Alt wrote:

Spoiler:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:


Rules on a smartphone or tablet are a no-go for me. You will have to have your books present to have a game.

While I dont have an issue with demanding people have their proper rules, GW (and FW) do sell their books in electronic formats.

Living in the 21st century, when much of GW's content is digital (and many competitor games have entirely digital rules), that seems a bit extreme.

Why don´t you prefer books?

I dont care either way, though ebooks are cheaper and carrying around lots of books gets old (especially now that GW has gone all in on hardcovers).

But either way, again, GW and FW do sell their rules in ebook format, new units and errata and FAQ are released via PDF, you're going to have a smartphone or tablet most likely anyway, demanding people have physical books is a wee bit...odd.

Most people in my FLGS still use books. It is not such an outlandish idea as you might think. I don´t need energy and my view is not constrained to a small screen. It is also much easier to handle.

Nobody is taking issue with an individual's right to choose either digital or physical media, nor are they arguing that each choice doesn't have its merits, the issue is your apparent refusal to accept somebody else's choice because it doesn't somehow conform to an arbitrary criteria you're enforcing.

But then, anyone reading your comments about FW shouldn't be surprised you've got a problem with it, despite having been a completely official and legitimate way to obtain one's rules for several years at this point.

I only own digital now. I refuse to own anymore books. I like books more, but then I moved 5 times in 4 years.

Give me only digital please.

Reemule wrote:
I only own digital now. I refuse to own anymore books. I like books more, but then I moved 5 times in 4 years.

Give me only digital please.

Digital coppies are also way cheaper, in case of FW books with tax and Porto around 3-5 times.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Oh, please do provide a link. I don't think we have had one of those since 6th.

That you even think that there are such threads pretty much proves my point. Your pro FW rage is making you blind... to the very poll sitting on the top of this page.

Okay, here you go.

You brought that on yourself with your first post. Move on.


Let's all stick with discussing the topic, rather than stirring up nonsense with other posters, hmm?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm tired of FW. Quite a few armies are in the "forgeworld or lose" camp. Which is dumb.

Quite a few armies are in the "codex or lose" camp. Which is dumb. Therefore ban codex rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Strg Alt wrote:
The bad impression results of past experiences according to the players which I have asked. I can´t judge, if this behaviour is warranted or not because I don´t own any FW rulebook.

IOW, you have an opinion based on nothing but ignorance, and you expect veto power over your opponent's army because of that opinion. Why do you think that this is acceptable?

Some armies are strictly in the "lose" camp. I rarely see codex marines beat anything but other codex marines. It's silly.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Spoiler:

 JamesY wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

Situation B is worse than A. Not all but many FW users like to get the jump on unsuspecting players with their shiny resin toys.

So would you be ok if your opponent handed over the rules, so that you knew exactly what the unit's rules were, and knew exactly what you were up against?

 Strg Alt wrote:

Sure, why not. But if the model´s rules/point cost are ludicrous then I would still decline the game. And according to the FLGS player base, those rules/points are often obnoxious. My hobby time is limited nowadays and I don´t want to waste it with a shoddy battle. My approach to 40K games are like this:

1) Declare armies
2) Declare points
3) Declare scenario
4) Declare army composition

40K has so many units of differing strengths that blind pick-up games are pretty useless for a fun game imo.

That's fair enough for me, and that's also my issue; I maybe play once or twice a year at the minute, which is why I'd be peeved if a game got cancelled just because someone had an issue with a label, rather than the rules themselves, or me as an opponent.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, you're saying that models that are in codexes or are "core" parts of the game should be just as easy to get and find?

Tell that to the Sisters of Battle.
Tell that to Inquisition.
Tell that to Basilisks, most Wall of Martyrs kits, and Land Raider Terminus Ultras (not in stores, in most places - order only).
Tell that to the Land Raider Excelsior and Rhino Primaris, units in the SM Index (and maybe Codex too), but can only be bought at WHW.

Are they all "expansions" to the game?

Nope, you can order all of those off of GW's webstore, despite them being expensive. Just like you can buy FW models off of a site linked directly on GW's webstore. I was saying that unless everyone has equal access to the models it's not fair to use them in a game without your opponent's permission. To my knowledge FW ships everywhere, so the only think really preventing people from getting FW models is money so this isn't a really valid argument anymore. If, however, FW didn't ship to Australia or something, it would be in totally bad taste to take a trip to Australia and just automatically assume that forgeworld models are ok to play against your opponent.

My argument was simply that a lot of players see FW as "separate and optional" because the rules come from a different book, and the models come from a different site. If the FW datasheets were published in the codices of the relevant factions, this would go a long way toward making FW seem more "legitimate" in the eyes of a lot of a lot of players, and allow everyone easy access to check FW datasheets without having to buy a completely separate book. The models can still be sold on FW's webstore seperate from GW because they are made-to-order resin if I remember correctly.

@w1zard don't forget that FW essentially sells niche items that wouldn't sell in enough volume to make mainstream production cost effective. Therefore, the 95% of players who don't want those niche products also wouldn't want to have to pay the extra £££'s for the larger codex. Whilst I'd happily see FW ended, and the range rolled back under citadel, I don't see an extra book on the table as an issue, I always have my books open for anyone to read, double check etc.

 conker249 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 conker249 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 conker249 wrote:
I dont like playing against FW personally. If I have a question about a unit, I rather like reading the unit entry. not a "trust me this is how it works, it has X wounds" or a screen shot on their phone that I have to look through, zoom, half read blurry text. or their Tablet just happens to be dead. No books to read through.
This is just me. I havent played a game against FW units that I can sit and read the rules easily. I havent turned down a game for it, but I already know from the start that I am going to have a rough time. It sucked charging against a unit, only to find out after it was done, that it has many, many special rules that make it nigh unkillable in combat, and my unit just died for no reason when I could have tried avoiding it.

What unit was this?

It was a blood slaughterer of Khorne If I remember. I thought a full unit of powerswords, lightning claws. and heavy Thunderhammers would work well against it. The 10 Attacks, strength 10, -3AP, 3 damage said otherwise. and the regen. Call me stupid for thinking that I could take it on. I know it isnt my opponents job to warn me about units, but it really put a damper on the game when I am being told that the slaughterer sucks the whole game.

It has 9 attacks at most, unless it is World Eaters (then it's 10).

None of the rules you mentioned make it "nigh unkillable". They're offensive things, not defensive. Defensively it's literally a Rhino, with a 5++ and heals 1 wound per battle round. Hardly "unkillable".

Dude. it was for me that match, In that match, the best defense was a great offense, a FW unit, without anything to read of or know about it, taking the word of someone saying that they get 10 attacks, strength 10, plenty of wounds, that heals. It was nigh unkillable FOR ME at the time. Learning these little "tidbits" in the fight itself, was frustrating. Again, i said personally. call me stupid for thinking I could take it on without knowing anything that the unit could do at all. This does not change anything about how I personally think of forgeworld.

Dooods, Blood slaughterers are awesome. I use them in pairs and Warptime one of them into my opponents face.

Reemule wrote:
I only own digital now. I refuse to own anymore books. I like books more, but then I moved 5 times in 4 years.

Give me only digital please.

If GW would discover the magic of the .pdf format (or rediscover .mobi), I'd be right there with you. Instead, they keep fething around with Epub3.

I use Zhadsnark myself (the model is too awesome!) and don't have a problem with FW, but with that being said...

 conker249 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 conker249 wrote:
that was how sisters of battle were in 7th, digital only. I was not allowed to play them at my store in the tournament. I was told the PDF's are "too easy to modify and change". This is a local small Tournament with local players, less than 10 people. I was irritated that I was no longer allowed to play my army. I don't play at that store anymore since a new LGS opened up and are nice.

I do not properly comprehend how play groups get to this point. Play by the rules, allow your opponent to do the same, play your game and win or lose, have fun with it. It's not that hard.

At that time I asked him why. He said because they are easy to change and modify on the spot. He heard of a story from a larger tournament where A player modified his PDF into more powerful units, and that the TO took the E-reader, and changed the bolters strength down to 1 inside the PDF, and the guy was banned from the tournament after it. I called him out, handing my E-reader to him to show me how easy it was. He didn't take me up on it, but it didnt change that I couldnt play Sisters of Battle once they got their Digital update to 7th. Prior to 7th edition when we only had the WD codex, one of the "founding members" of the gaming club, which you had to be chosen and voted into to be part of, YELLED across the room saying I couldnt play my sisters of battle unless I had the original White dwarfs that they were in. I laughed sarcastically, holding my books in the air. The player base there was just Toxic. From what I heard, their player base is dwindling. its been about 3 years since I played there.

Funny you say that actually, I've got a horror story of SoB myself that killed my respect for all others of their kind. Perhaps the army just attracts those gakky kinds of people?

In (8e) the SoB player had a FW transport with firing points, a free 'vanguard' movement before the game starts and also specifically said it could be targeted with his SoB acts of faith free movement. Resulting in him getting into flamer range turn 1, roasting most of my boyz while also ejecting his sisters and flaming with them before I had a turn.
I asked for proof and he showed me a photo of a pdf of the stats.

Checked for the model later on, and I couldn't find anything about it. Now, as a rule of thumb I now ask for the model name and check it for myself on the internet.

Well if a transport for Sisters could benefit from free movement (think one of their units does that) it isn't outside the realm of possibility they thought an act could apply the same way. I don't have the second Index handy though

Sisters vehicles can't benefit from acts of faith.

If the Repressor has dominions it can vanguard move if only dominions are in it. AKA add a cannoness in and it loses the bonus pre-game move.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Sisters vehicles can't benefit from acts of faith.

If the Repressor has dominions it can vanguard move if only dominions are in it. AKA add a cannoness in and it loses the bonus pre-game move.

Huh, that's a weird combo but good to know! Looks like the only thing that was pulled over my eyes was using Acts of Faith on the transport (iirc he had two of them + celestine to move them across the map turn 1).

Yeah, they actually used to, but an FAQ cleared that up a while back. So if your game was at the start of 8th, he might not actually have been cheating.

Also, sister units in transports can't use AoF even if they can still shoot.

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

So you only play when you know all of your opponents rules? You'll refuse games against someone who plays an army that's just had a new codex come out because you haven't read it yet?

You could just read those rules before the game.

 JamesY wrote:
@w1zard don't forget that FW essentially sells niche items that wouldn't sell in enough volume to make mainstream production cost effective. Therefore, the 95% of players who don't want those niche products also wouldn't want to have to pay the extra £££'s for the larger codex. Whilst I'd happily see FW ended, and the range rolled back under citadel, I don't see an extra book on the table as an issue, I always have my books open for anyone to read, double check etc.

Why would including FW datasheets in the standard codices make them cost more money? You have an Imperial Armor index, and a standard codex already. Just combine them. The potential for increased revenue due to an increased market for FW should outweigh the minor losses incurred with giving FW rules away for free. And I definitely think the market for FW would increase if the datasheets were in the codex.

w1zard wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
@w1zard don't forget that FW essentially sells niche items that wouldn't sell in enough volume to make mainstream production cost effective. Therefore, the 95% of players who don't want those niche products also wouldn't want to have to pay the extra £££'s for the larger codex. Whilst I'd happily see FW ended, and the range rolled back under citadel, I don't see an extra book on the table as an issue, I always have my books open for anyone to read, double check etc.

Why would including FW datasheets in the standard codices make them cost more money? You have an Imperial Armor index, and a standard codex already. Just combine them. The potential for increased revenue due to an increased market for FW should outweigh the minor losses incurred with essentially giving FW rules away for free.

Actually monetary reasons for GW.
They can sell us more additional books, which are reccurent revenue compared to models.
You need to buy each new edition so to speak, that is why they kicked out the Griffon from the regular IG codex after putting it in it in 7th i belive.
Same goes for CA.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually monetary reasons for GW.
They can sell us more additional books, which are reccurent revenue compared to models.
You need to buy each new edition so to speak, that is why they kicked out the Griffon from the regular IG codex after putting it in it in 7th i belive.
Same goes for CA.

*Shrugs* That is on GW then. They have two very easy avenues to increase the "acceptability" of FW in many people's eyes.

A. Release a statement saying that FW indices are just as valid and non-optional as a faction codex. This costs them nothing.
B. Combine the FW indices with the relevant faction's codex. This costs them money in the short term, but will most likely boost FW sales in the long term because of the larger exposure and market.

GW have done neither and this is extremely puzzling to me.

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

What kind of game are we playing?

If it's a competitive game, it's on you to understand what your opponent might be bringing. That includes Forgeworld, so you should know those rules too if you want to compete. Being denied the use of your Forgeworld units is the worse outcome, because they represent an investment you made to bring your army up to a more competitive level. I don't think it makes sense to get upset about being smashed in a competitive game.

If it's a normal game, then getting smashed (or smashing your opponent) for any reason is about the worst outcome I can think of. You've both wasted several hours of your valuable hobby time when you could have been having fun playing a game where the outcome was less certain. If leaving your Forgeworld units on the shelf makes for closer, more interesting games, you should do that. On the flipside, if fielding Forgeworld units in your army leads to closer games, your opponent will be happy for you to do that!

w1zard wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually monetary reasons for GW.
They can sell us more additional books, which are reccurent revenue compared to models.
You need to buy each new edition so to speak, that is why they kicked out the Griffon from the regular IG codex after putting it in it in 7th i belive.
Same goes for CA.

*Shrugs* That is on GW then. They have two very easy avenues to increase the "acceptability" of FW in many people's eyes.

A. Release a statement saying that FW indices are just as valid and non-optional as a faction codex. This costs them nothing.
B. Combine the FW indices with the relevant faction's codex. This costs them money in the short term, but will most likely boost FW sales in the long term because of the larger exposure and market.

GW have done neither and this is extremely puzzling to me.

Ehhh, with CA they have done it. (As much as i hate it for beeing a ripoff)
Also their website, and the Erratas are at the same place.
Can't get anymore offical then that really now.

Granted i personally would still like to see them in their respective codices. Especially the more aresnal world stuff like Malcadors etc.that really could've been there and maybee a mention of FW, if it is a FW unit?
Also i would really like a re-release of the lost and the damned, properly fleshed out they could make a great army.
Heck they could just sell the FW rules in GW stores as to boost sales and make at the same time more sales through that for FW, free advertisement.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kadeton wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

What kind of game are we playing?

If it's a competitive game, it's on you to understand what your opponent might be bringing. That includes Forgeworld, so you should know those rules too if you want to compete. Being denied the use of your Forgeworld units is the worse outcome, because they represent an investment you made to bring your army up to a more competitive level. I don't think it makes sense to get upset about being smashed in a competitive game.

If it's a normal game, then getting smashed (or smashing your opponent) for any reason is about the worst outcome I can think of. You've both wasted several hours of your valuable hobby time when you could have been having fun playing a game where the outcome was less certain. If leaving your Forgeworld units on the shelf makes for closer, more interesting games, you should do that. On the flipside, if fielding Forgeworld units in your army leads to closer games, your opponent will be happy for you to do that!

Generally the last point comes down to etiquette no?
I mean Codex Armies are vastly superior to non codex armies, therefore i should not pick the most competitive IG soup list against a dude that walks in with a BW blitz now should i?
Again a pure FW army will perform significantly worse then GW armies. Granted most pure FW armies and conversions of IG using FW rules are taken because of the customability and personalization. Winning, atleast for me, is secondary... in fact i had recently a sm player complain about the fact that i got tabled by turn 3 playing my R&H. (DAMN YOU MARAUDERS "angrily shakes fist at models gravjumping")