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Tzeentch prides himself in being the most knowledgeable, but he can't really be if you consider the warp. The warp is the reflection of all the emotions in the materium, but each god would have the knowledge of the emotions that created them. Zteencth would know everything about change, but Khorne would know everything about violence, rage, hate and war, Nurgle about despair, destructive thoughts disease, entropy etc and Slaanesh would know everything about desire and pleasure. I wouldn't think he was nearly as knowledgeable as he professes, he's probably the most knowledgeable out of the other gods, Slaanesh being the next, then Nurgle and Khorne being the least knowledgeable.

I would say you should ask the Emperor how knowledgeable Tzeentch is, but he might not reply these days, after *someone* broke his Webway with powers from a certain God of sorcerers.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I would say you should ask the Emperor how knowledgeable Tzeentch is, but he might not reply these days, after *someone* broke his Webway with powers from a certain God of sorcerers.

I think you should ask Horus, If Tzeentch was so knowledgeable then why couldn't he win the Horus Heresy.... Tzeentch didn't break through the webway, he needed Magnus to do it, because magnus wasn't a daemon at that time, therefore the wards didn't apply to him.

The Chaos Gods are not people. They don't really 'know' anything. They just are. They act in accordance with their natures. It is Tzeentch's nature to fill you with false hopes and then bring your plans to ruin. To a mortal, this feels like Tzeentch is a crafty schemer, a betrayer who is always one step ahead. But projecting things like knowledge or reasons onto a Chaos God is not much different from doing the same to the storm that just destroyed your fleet and doomed your empire to defeat.

Tzeentch or his daemons can tell you stuff if you communicate with them, but that's just a matter of plucking the knowledge from some point in the universe and transmitting it to you. Any Chaos God can do that, even Khorne, it's just that mortals expect it of Tzeentch because it fits with their limited mortal understanding of the Gods' portfolios.

You're actually better off asking a Keeper of Secrets for knowledge than a Lord of Change anyway, at least in the older fluff. A KoS will try to seduce and corrupt you with the knowledge you seek, but a LoC will actively try to screw you over with it. It's just their natures.

I think that the change that Kairos Fateweaver endured while in the Well of Eternity is indicative of the inherent weakness of Tzeentch's abilties; the increase of knowledge and power in one area always leads to the decrease of it in another. The more Tzeentch tries to understand and manipulate the universe, the more tangled things become for him.

 Duskweaver wrote:
The Chaos Gods are not people. They don't really 'know' anything. They just are. They act in accordance with their natures. It is Tzeentch's nature to fill you with false hopes and then bring your plans to ruin. To a mortal, this feels like Tzeentch is a crafty schemer, a betrayer who is always one step ahead. But projecting things like knowledge or reasons onto a Chaos God is not much different from doing the same to the storm that just destroyed your fleet and doomed your empire to defeat.

Tzeentch or his daemons can tell you stuff if you communicate with them, but that's just a matter of plucking the knowledge from some point in the universe and transmitting it to you. Any Chaos God can do that, even Khorne, it's just that mortals expect it of Tzeentch because it fits with their limited mortal understanding of the Gods' portfolios.

You're actually better off asking a Keeper of Secrets for knowledge than a Lord of Change anyway, at least in the older fluff. A KoS will try to seduce and corrupt you with the knowledge you seek, but a LoC will actively try to screw you over with it. It's just their natures.

'They don't know anything they just are' that doesn't make any sense at all, plus that is just conjecture. They have knowledge if they didn't have knowledge they wouldn't be able to 'plan' anything, if you want to plan a war in the Imperium you have to know who you are fighting, where in the universe it is etc. 'Tzeentch or his daemons can tell you stuff if you communicate with them, but that's just a matter of plucking the knowledge from some point in the universe and transmitting it to you. Any Chaos God can do that, even Khorne, it's just that mortals expect it of Tzeentch because it fits with their limited mortal understanding of the Gods' portfolios.' complete conjecture again, you are talking like this is fact this is only your opinion of how 'you' see chaos. If you are conjecturing say 'I think this is how they operate'.

 Duskweaver wrote:
The Chaos Gods are not people. They don't really 'know' anything. They just are. They act in accordance with their natures. It is Tzeentch's nature to fill you with false hopes and then bring your plans to ruin. To a mortal, this feels like Tzeentch is a crafty schemer, a betrayer who is always one step ahead. But projecting things like knowledge or reasons onto a Chaos God is not much different from doing the same to the storm that just destroyed your fleet and doomed your empire to defeat.

Tzeentch or his daemons can tell you stuff if you communicate with them, but that's just a matter of plucking the knowledge from some point in the universe and transmitting it to you. Any Chaos God can do that, even Khorne, it's just that mortals expect it of Tzeentch because it fits with their limited mortal understanding of the Gods' portfolios.

You're actually better off asking a Keeper of Secrets for knowledge than a Lord of Change anyway, at least in the older fluff. A KoS will try to seduce and corrupt you with the knowledge you seek, but a LoC will actively try to screw you over with it. It's just their natures.

I don't think this is right. It is outright stated in the fluff at multiple points that the chaos gods are actual entities, with feelings and emotions all of their own... sapient beings. Consider them like uber-daemons. Lesser daemons are just pieces of power that have been removed from the whole.

Isn't it also stated in the lore that Tzeench knows all things? As in every secret kept, every scrap of knowledge ever discovered. He can also see multiple futures with perfect clarity and always tries to push reality along advantageous routes.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think you should ask Horus, If Tzeentch was so knowledgeable then why couldn't he win the Horus Heresy....

Just because he is OMNISCIENT doesn't mean he is OMNIPOTENT. You can play a game perfectly and still lose. There is also the possibility that he couldn't control all of the variables for various reasons and simply nudged things along to give chaos the best CHANCE of winning, but they still lost. Alternatively, there is also the more terrifying possibility that he actually intended Horus to lose as part of a grander scheme for a more nefarious purpose...

w1zard wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
The Chaos Gods are not people. They don't really 'know' anything. They just are. They act in accordance with their natures. It is Tzeentch's nature to fill you with false hopes and then bring your plans to ruin. To a mortal, this feels like Tzeentch is a crafty schemer, a betrayer who is always one step ahead. But projecting things like knowledge or reasons onto a Chaos God is not much different from doing the same to the storm that just destroyed your fleet and doomed your empire to defeat.

Tzeentch or his daemons can tell you stuff if you communicate with them, but that's just a matter of plucking the knowledge from some point in the universe and transmitting it to you. Any Chaos God can do that, even Khorne, it's just that mortals expect it of Tzeentch because it fits with their limited mortal understanding of the Gods' portfolios.

You're actually better off asking a Keeper of Secrets for knowledge than a Lord of Change anyway, at least in the older fluff. A KoS will try to seduce and corrupt you with the knowledge you seek, but a LoC will actively try to screw you over with it. It's just their natures.

I don't think this is right. It is outright stated in the fluff at multiple points that the chaos gods are actual entities, with feelings and emotions all of their own... sapient beings. Consider them like uber-daemons. Lesser daemons are just pieces of power that have been removed from the whole.

Isn't it also stated in the lore that Tzeench knows all things? As in every secret kept, every scrap of knowledge ever discovered. He can also see multiple futures with perfect clarity and always tries to push reality along advantageous routes.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think you should ask Horus, If Tzeentch was so knowledgeable then why couldn't he win the Horus Heresy....

Just because he is OMNISCIENT doesn't mean he is OMNIPOTENT. You can play a game perfectly and still lose. There is also the possibility that he couldn't control all of the variables for various reasons and simply nudged things along to give chaos the best CHANCE of winning, but they still lost. Alternatively, there is also the more terrifying possibility that he actually intended Horus to lose as part of a grander scheme for a more nefarious purpose...

He isn't omniscient at all. He doesn't know what the other gods are up to or the Emperor, He is omniscient with nearly everything else in the Imaterium and materium. Fateweaver for instance knows more of the future.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I think you should ask Horus, If Tzeentch was so knowledgeable then why couldn't he win the Horus Heresy

Was Horus ever supposed to win the heresy though I think Tzeentch and his siblings got the outcome they desired. If the Cabal were to be believed and Horus had won then Chaos would have had a burnt itself out faster. 10k might be brief I guess, so could still be yet to see if they were correct, but the 40k universe is much more of a Chaos playground, perhaps equalling the Heresy, with no let up in sight.

I kinda see the Cabals point of view on this. Horus on the throne the rivalries would set in quicker and another civil war would break out. After Horus loss there was civil war and still is between the chaos Legions but they can unite with a singular purpose to bring down the Imperium.

Have to agree with Delvarus that he isn't omniscient, nothing really backs that up. A lot of what Tzeentch does is also plotting for the sake of plotting, if he knew what would happen he wouldn't need Fateweaver and would have remained the strongest god. We have examples in the fluff of Tzeentch followers plotting against each other without knowing the other follows Tzeentch too, just because it pleases him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I think you should ask Horus, If Tzeentch was so knowledgeable then why couldn't he win the Horus Heresy

Was Horus ever supposed to win the heresy though I think Tzeentch and his siblings got the outcome they desired. If the Cabal were to be believed and Horus had won then Chaos would have had a burnt itself out faster. 10k might be brief I guess, so could still be yet to see if they were correct, but the 40k universe is much more of a Chaos playground, perhaps equalling the Heresy, with no let up in sight.

I kinda see the Cabals point of view on this. Horus on the throne the rivalries would set in quicker and another civil war would break out. After Horus loss there was civil war and still is between the chaos Legions but they can unite with a singular purpose to bring down the Imperium.

I think the Cabal fluff is a terrible piece of writing when we compare it to the older and newer lore, nothing we know and what the AL should know backs that up. In the fight between Horus and the Emperor, Horus would have beaten the Emperor to death if the Emperor didn't recover his senses. The Chaos Gods only withdrew their power from Horus when it became a risk to themselves, not when the Emperor was already critically wounded. Now granted, new books might change that.

And as for Guilleman, in the new stuff Khorne directly attacks the Imperial Palace. If he had succeeded that would have resulted in the death of the Emperor too. It doesn't seem to line up with the beliefs of the Cabal.

Humanity got mangled during the Old Night and Chaos survived. Slaanesh was brought into being by the Eldar. If Horus had won and mostly wiped out humanity, how would other races not have expanded to fill up the void left by humanity and fed Chaos? We have plenty of examples of alien races in thrall to Chaos.

The Chaos Gods wanted Horus to fail to me is on the same level as the quick edit that those 12 previous Black Crusades totally did what they were meant to do honest! I'm saying that as a CSM player, nothing against Chaos succeeding in the lore, but that's just cheap changes.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

I think the Cabal fluff is a terrible piece of writing when we compare it to the older and newer lore, nothing we know and what the AL should know backs that up. In the fight between Horus and the Emperor, Horus would have beaten the Emperor to death if the Emperor didn't recover his senses. The Chaos Gods only withdrew their power from Horus when it became a risk to themselves, not when the Emperor was already critically wounded. Now granted, new books might change that.

And as for Guilleman, in the new stuff Khorne directly attacks the Imperial Palace. If he had succeeded that would have resulted in the death of the Emperor too. It doesn't seem to line up with the beliefs of the Cabal.

Humanity got mangled during the Old Night and Chaos survived. Slaanesh was brought into being by the Eldar. If Horus had won and mostly wiped out humanity, how would other races not have expanded to fill up the void left by humanity and fed Chaos? We have plenty of examples of alien races in thrall to Chaos.

The Chaos Gods wanted Horus to fail to me is on the same level as the quick edit that those 12 previous Black Crusades totally did what they were meant to do honest! I'm saying that as a CSM player, nothing against Chaos succeeding in the lore, but that's just cheap changes.

Oh, I totally agree, the introduction of the Cabal was an odd thing to do and I much prefer the Index Astartes era Alpha Legion. But even without the Cabal and their prediction, Chaos got the outcome it wanted from Horus losing the heresy. At least i've always thought that. Did they stop using Horus as a meat suit when he was at risk or was it at that point he had fulfilled his purpose. I know what the fluff says but it's not always so black and white and is always open for change. If Tzeentch knows the future, then I guess he knew what the outcome was going to be or at least the most likeliest outcomes.

I disagree with you about the Black crusades being a quick edit and a cheap change. I've never thought they failed, they just had different aims to what was believed. From one CSM player to another

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
In the fight between Horus and the Emperor, Horus would have beaten the Emperor to death if the Emperor didn't recover his senses. The Chaos Gods only withdrew their power from Horus when it became a risk to themselves, not when the Emperor was already critically wounded. Now granted, new books might change that.

My impression from the fight between Horus and the emperor was that the emperor could have won any time he wanted. He was reluctant to kill his favorite "son" (and I use that term loosely) because he still thought he could be saved from chaos, even when he was mortally wounded. It was when Horus murdered the custode *cough*OLLANIUS PIUS*cough* that stood in between him and the mortally wounded emperor that the big E realized that Horus was too far gone. He annihilated Horus completely with just a thought, while mortally wounded. If that doesn't prove his superiority I don't know what does.

It is pretty obious that the Horus Heresy had a good ending for Chaos: they never cared about the marines or Horus, they were merely tools and therefore there death and apparent failing had no importance for the gods. The constant total war state of the galaxy is what matters.
I can't remember one day when this stupid meme was true, I have been in the hobby since about 2005 and the Black Crusade weren't failed Crusade toward Terra.
Of course Khorne attacks the Imperial Palace, it is in his nature, and he looses. He isn't jeopardizing the statlemate, he can't win this war anyway. He is just doing the only thing he is: war and glory (the glory to be the first on Terra etc).
Things doesn't always make sense with the CHAOS gods, indeed, they don't belong to our universe, our realm of reality and our understanting so...

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

I think the Cabal fluff is a terrible piece of writing when we compare it to the older and newer lore, nothing we know and what the AL should know backs that up. In the fight between Horus and the Emperor, Horus would have beaten the Emperor to death if the Emperor didn't recover his senses. The Chaos Gods only withdrew their power from Horus when it became a risk to themselves, not when the Emperor was already critically wounded. Now granted, new books might change that.

And as for Guilleman, in the new stuff Khorne directly attacks the Imperial Palace. If he had succeeded that would have resulted in the death of the Emperor too. It doesn't seem to line up with the beliefs of the Cabal.

Humanity got mangled during the Old Night and Chaos survived. Slaanesh was brought into being by the Eldar. If Horus had won and mostly wiped out humanity, how would other races not have expanded to fill up the void left by humanity and fed Chaos? We have plenty of examples of alien races in thrall to Chaos.

The Chaos Gods wanted Horus to fail to me is on the same level as the quick edit that those 12 previous Black Crusades totally did what they were meant to do honest! I'm saying that as a CSM player, nothing against Chaos succeeding in the lore, but that's just cheap changes.

Oh, I totally agree, the introduction of the Cabal was an odd thing to do and I much prefer the Index Astartes era Alpha Legion. But even without the Cabal and their prediction, Chaos got the outcome it wanted from Horus losing the heresy. At least i've always thought that. Did they stop using Horus as a meat suit when he was at risk or was it at that point he had fulfilled his purpose. I know what the fluff says but it's not always so black and white and is always open for change. If Tzeentch knows the future, then I guess he knew what the outcome was going to be or at least the most likeliest outcomes.

I disagree with you about the Black crusades being a quick edit and a cheap change. I've never thought they failed, they just had different aims to what was believed. From one CSM player to another

But I thought Tzeentch doesn't know the future though, that's why he created Fateweaver. He was too scared to see what happened in one experiment an used FW as his guinea pig an it allows FW to see the future now.

You know, I wouldn't mind the Black Crusade change much, if not for the fact that whoever wrote it seems to have half forgotten that not every BC was led by Abaddon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
In the fight between Horus and the Emperor, Horus would have beaten the Emperor to death if the Emperor didn't recover his senses. The Chaos Gods only withdrew their power from Horus when it became a risk to themselves, not when the Emperor was already critically wounded. Now granted, new books might change that.

My impression from the fight between Horus and the emperor was that the emperor could have won any time he wanted. He was reluctant to kill his favorite "son" (and I use that term loosely) because he still thought he could be saved from chaos, even when he was mortally wounded. It was when Horus murdered the custode *cough*OLLANIUS PIUS*cough* that stood in between him and the mortally wounded emperor that the big E realized that Horus was too far gone. He annihilated Horus completely with just a thought, while mortally wounded. If that doesn't prove his superiority I don't know what does.

No you're totally correct that the Emperor could have ended it within seconds. But the Emperor didn't want to do that and Horus would have beaten him to death if not for the heroic intervention of Pius/IF/Custodian. But that is my point. If the guy hadn't walked in the Chaos Gods would have kept empowering him to beat the Emperor into a paste.

It wasn't about who was superior, its about the argument that this is how the Chaos Gods wanted the HH to end. Nothing really backs that up considering that the Chaos Gods kept empowering Horus until it became a risk to themselves. If random shapeshifter person hadn't walked in Horus would have finished the Emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:

I can't remember one day when this stupid meme was true, I have been in the hobby since about 2005 and the Black Crusade weren't failed Crusade toward Terra.
Of course Khorne attacks the Imperial Palace, it is in his nature, and he looses. He isn't jeopardizing the statlemate, he can't win this war anyway. He is just doing the only thing he is: war and glory (the glory to be the first on Terra etc).
Things doesn't always make sense with the CHAOS gods, indeed, they don't belong to our universe, our realm of reality and our understanting so...

Agreed on the good outcome part.

But 4th edition CSM codex makes clear the BC were meant to finish what Horus started. Only the 6th edition clearly states that that actually wasn't the case, Abaddon was merely preparing for the true attempt, its not a meme, its just older lore that was replaced.

Also Khorne attacking the Imperial Palace was meant to win, hence him obliterating the essences of the 8 Bloodthirsters for failing. Nothing implies he wasn't jeopardizing the stalemate, he clearly intended to win.

You have to remember that it is highly likely that Tzeentch is completely insane.

His schemes are self defeating and contradictory.
Perhaps he is playing the super long, long game. Or perhaps he is just quite mad.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

But I thought Tzeentch doesn't know the future though, that's why he created Fateweaver. He was too scared to see what happened in one experiment an used FW as his guinea pig an it allows FW to see the future now.

You know, I wouldn't mind the Black Crusade change much, if not for the fact that whoever wrote it seems to have half forgotten that not every BC was led by Abaddon.

Yeah, but whatever Fatey knows Tzeentch knows, or will find out.

Hmm, Abaddon lead 13 but the other Black Crusades are still there aren't they? I guess the ones that were led by Tallomin and Doombreed etc now being as part of Abaddons is a bit of a turn though.

Tzeentch is NEARLY omniscient. but he has so many schemes and futures he sometimes "forgets" small things

Often remember his attention is on the Great Game and not on things to do with the Mortal Realm.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

But I thought Tzeentch doesn't know the future though, that's why he created Fateweaver. He was too scared to see what happened in one experiment an used FW as his guinea pig an it allows FW to see the future now.

You know, I wouldn't mind the Black Crusade change much, if not for the fact that whoever wrote it seems to have half forgotten that not every BC was led by Abaddon.

Yeah, but whatever Fatey knows Tzeentch knows, or will find out.

Hmm, Abaddon lead 13 but the other Black Crusades are still there aren't they? I guess the ones that were led by Tallomin and Doombreed etc now being as part of Abaddons is a bit of a turn though.

True, but the problem is that what FW sees isn't entirely accurate or the entire picture either, as we have multiple examples of FW failing.

As for the 13, there were only 13 BC in total in the older edition iirc. 4th edition mentions I believe 2 or 3 that were led by other such as those you mentioned. But there were always 13, as the BC is just what the Imperium calls them. Not 13 of Abaddon plus whatever others there were. 6th retroactively crowbarred in Abaddon's involvement in each of them, when he wasn't originally mentioned in all of them, I should find my 4th edition codex when I'm home.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I would say you should ask the Emperor how knowledgeable Tzeentch is, but he might not reply these days, after *someone* broke his Webway with powers from a certain God of sorcerers.

I think you should ask Horus, If Tzeentch was so knowledgeable then why couldn't he win the Horus Heresy.... Tzeentch didn't break through the webway, he needed Magnus to do it, because magnus wasn't a daemon at that time, therefore the wards didn't apply to him.

It was never about winning, it was about causing Humanity to regress into the theocratic-fascistic state that the Imperium is in today, causing more extreme suffering and thus more fuel for Tzeentch to nom on.

Or, as Tzeentch might say... JUST AS KEIAKU!

 dan2026 wrote:
...Perhaps he is playing the super long, long game...

This was always my impression.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I think you should ask Horus, If Tzeentch was so knowledgeable then why couldn't he win the Horus Heresy

Was Horus ever supposed to win the heresy though I think Tzeentch and his siblings got the outcome they desired. If the Cabal were to be believed and Horus had won then Chaos would have had a burnt itself out faster. 10k might be brief I guess, so could still be yet to see if they were correct, but the 40k universe is much more of a Chaos playground, perhaps equalling the Heresy, with no let up in sight.

I kinda see the Cabals point of view on this. Horus on the throne the rivalries would set in quicker and another civil war would break out. After Horus loss there was civil war and still is between the chaos Legions but they can unite with a singular purpose to bring down the Imperium.

Of course they did, Chaos' number 1 problem is that the Emperor is alive, of course they wanted him dead. The point is they couldn't kill him, if you were omniscience you would be able to kill him in the HH, there would be an infinite number of ways to do it, plus if they killed the Emperor and did a complete job of killing him Chaos could flood daemons into the world as the Emperor is no longer protecting it, so they'd get their materium army and kill the Emperor. If the Gods planned for the HH to go the way it did it means they are not omniscient at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:
It is pretty obious that the Horus Heresy had a good ending for Chaos: they never cared about the marines or Horus, they were merely tools and therefore there death and apparent failing had no importance for the gods. The constant total war state of the galaxy is what matters.
I can't remember one day when this stupid meme was true, I have been in the hobby since about 2005 and the Black Crusade weren't failed Crusade toward Terra.
Of course Khorne attacks the Imperial Palace, it is in his nature, and he looses. He isn't jeopardizing the statlemate, he can't win this war anyway. He is just doing the only thing he is: war and glory (the glory to be the first on Terra etc).
Things doesn't always make sense with the CHAOS gods, indeed, they don't belong to our universe, our realm of reality and our understanting so...

This is completely wrong they don't want just unending war they want to rule the galaxy first and foremost. The HH heresy got the an army in the imperium, without that they would be no threat.

Tzeentch very explicitly is not omniscient; he has perfect knowledge of the past and present, but the future eludes him (thus sending Kairos to the Well of Eternity). He's in a better position than anyone else to predict the future due to his extensive knowledge base, but his predictions are still only guesses.

Still, I find it very difficult to believe any claim that Chaos lost the Heresy. It was not a perfect victory, true, but Chaos got a crippled Imperium that would spiral into a theocratic dystopia perfect for providing the gods with more cultists; the Emperor was left trapped on his throne as everything he worked for crumbles to nothing and is replaced with an Imperium much more akin to Lorgar's vision.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Tzeentch very explicitly is not omniscient; he has perfect knowledge of the past and present, but the future eludes him (thus sending Kairos to the Well of Eternity). He's in a better position than anyone else to predict the future due to his extensive knowledge base, but his predictions are still only guesses.

Still, I find it very difficult to believe any claim that Chaos lost the Heresy. It was not a perfect victory, true, but Chaos got a crippled Imperium that would spiral into a theocratic dystopia perfect for providing the gods with more cultists; the Emperor was left trapped on his throne as everything he worked for crumbles to nothing and is replaced with an Imperium much more akin to Lorgar's vision.

I believe that they got exactly what they needed out of the heresy, an army that can fight in the materium. But if someone thinks Tzeentch is omniscience then chaos absolutely failed the heresy, because if he is omniscience then he would have been able to kill the Emperor and taken Terra.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Tzeentch very explicitly is not omniscient; he has perfect knowledge of the past and present, but the future eludes him (thus sending Kairos to the Well of Eternity). He's in a better position than anyone else to predict the future due to his extensive knowledge base, but his predictions are still only guesses.

Still, I find it very difficult to believe any claim that Chaos lost the Heresy. It was not a perfect victory, true, but Chaos got a crippled Imperium that would spiral into a theocratic dystopia perfect for providing the gods with more cultists; the Emperor was left trapped on his throne as everything he worked for crumbles to nothing and is replaced with an Imperium much more akin to Lorgar's vision.

I believe that they got exactly what they needed out of the heresy, an army that can fight in the materium. But if someone thinks Tzeentch is omniscience then chaos absolutely failed the heresy, because if he is omniscience then he would have been able to kill the Emperor and taken Terra.

They had that already. It seems to be that the goal was to trap the Imperium in eternal decay to effectively give Chaos a farm of power and followers.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Tzeentch very explicitly is not omniscient; he has perfect knowledge of the past and present, but the future eludes him (thus sending Kairos to the Well of Eternity). He's in a better position than anyone else to predict the future due to his extensive knowledge base, but his predictions are still only guesses.

Still, I find it very difficult to believe any claim that Chaos lost the Heresy. It was not a perfect victory, true, but Chaos got a crippled Imperium that would spiral into a theocratic dystopia perfect for providing the gods with more cultists; the Emperor was left trapped on his throne as everything he worked for crumbles to nothing and is replaced with an Imperium much more akin to Lorgar's vision.

I believe that they got exactly what they needed out of the heresy, an army that can fight in the materium. But if someone thinks Tzeentch is omniscience then chaos absolutely failed the heresy, because if he is omniscience then he would have been able to kill the Emperor and taken Terra.

They had that already. It seems to be that the goal was to trap the Imperium in eternal decay to effectively give Chaos a farm of power and followers.

No they didn't, they didn't have any army than a few cults spread around the galaxy, they had no infrastructure, no fleet whatsoever, no trained army, no mechanicm or forgeworlds, no elite warriors like the astartes. They didn't have anything. Chaos don't want an eternal war, eternal war is inevitable, they want to have mankind enslaved, so they can get as much of their desired emotions out to make the gods stronger just like in all the daemon planets, even if they did that and got what they wanted their would be an eternal war between the gods for power.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Tzeentch very explicitly is not omniscient; he has perfect knowledge of the past and present, but the future eludes him (thus sending Kairos to the Well of Eternity). He's in a better position than anyone else to predict the future due to his extensive knowledge base, but his predictions are still only guesses.

Still, I find it very difficult to believe any claim that Chaos lost the Heresy. It was not a perfect victory, true, but Chaos got a crippled Imperium that would spiral into a theocratic dystopia perfect for providing the gods with more cultists; the Emperor was left trapped on his throne as everything he worked for crumbles to nothing and is replaced with an Imperium much more akin to Lorgar's vision.

I believe that they got exactly what they needed out of the heresy, an army that can fight in the materium. But if someone thinks Tzeentch is omniscience then chaos absolutely failed the heresy, because if he is omniscience then he would have been able to kill the Emperor and taken Terra.

They had that already. It seems to be that the goal was to trap the Imperium in eternal decay to effectively give Chaos a farm of power and followers.

No they didn't, they didn't have any army than a few cults spread around the galaxy, they had no infrastructure, no fleet whatsoever, no trained army, no mechanicm or forgeworlds, no elite warriors like the astartes. They didn't have anything. Chaos don't want an eternal war, eternal war is inevitable, they want to have mankind enslaved, so they can get as much of their desired emotions out to make the gods stronger just like in all the daemon planets, even if they did that and got what they wanted their would be an eternal war between the gods for power.

They had an entire species serving just Slaanesh. It's reasonable to assume they had other Chaos serving races.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Tzeentch very explicitly is not omniscient; he has perfect knowledge of the past and present, but the future eludes him (thus sending Kairos to the Well of Eternity). He's in a better position than anyone else to predict the future due to his extensive knowledge base, but his predictions are still only guesses.

Still, I find it very difficult to believe any claim that Chaos lost the Heresy. It was not a perfect victory, true, but Chaos got a crippled Imperium that would spiral into a theocratic dystopia perfect for providing the gods with more cultists; the Emperor was left trapped on his throne as everything he worked for crumbles to nothing and is replaced with an Imperium much more akin to Lorgar's vision.

I believe that they got exactly what they needed out of the heresy, an army that can fight in the materium. But if someone thinks Tzeentch is omniscience then chaos absolutely failed the heresy, because if he is omniscience then he would have been able to kill the Emperor and taken Terra.

They had that already. It seems to be that the goal was to trap the Imperium in eternal decay to effectively give Chaos a farm of power and followers.

No they didn't, they didn't have any army than a few cults spread around the galaxy, they had no infrastructure, no fleet whatsoever, no trained army, no mechanicm or forgeworlds, no elite warriors like the astartes. They didn't have anything. Chaos don't want an eternal war, eternal war is inevitable, they want to have mankind enslaved, so they can get as much of their desired emotions out to make the gods stronger just like in all the daemon planets, even if they did that and got what they wanted their would be an eternal war between the gods for power.

They had an entire species serving just Slaanesh. It's reasonable to assume they had other Chaos serving races.

Not on the level of the Imperium or to take on the Imperium. They had nothing that could threat the Imperium not even to the same degree of the Tau.

No but there's never been an Empire like the Imperium. What I said was that the goal of Chaos wasn't to gain an army for the real world because they could do that already.

Although if Chaos wanted humanity dead they could probably have done it. But that's a downer on the setting.

pm713 wrote:
No but there's never been an Empire like the Imperium. What I said was that the goal of Chaos wasn't to gain an army for the real world because they could do that already.

Although if Chaos wanted humanity dead they could probably have done it. But that's a downer on the setting.

They couldn't do that themselves. The fact that they didn't is proof enough. Why allow the Imperium to come to its zenith if they could build an army themselves.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
No but there's never been an Empire like the Imperium. What I said was that the goal of Chaos wasn't to gain an army for the real world because they could do that already.

Although if Chaos wanted humanity dead they could probably have done it. But that's a downer on the setting.

They couldn't do that themselves. The fact that they didn't is proof enough. Why allow the Imperium to come to its zenith if they could build an army themselves.

Because they can use it to farm followers, decay, bloodshed, change, desire and everything they want. They also didn't let the Imperium reach it's zenith seeing as they made the Heresy happen to put things in a constant downward spiral.

Not wiping out humanity isn't proof it can't be done at all. 40k is a human centric setting. Nobody can ever kill off humanity because of that. The Eldar Empire could have wiped out Humanity no problem, Chaos could have sent races like the Laer to wipe out every planet humanity had that could space travel and then finish off the rest. They can't/don't because the whole setting is based around humans and you can't have a human setting without humans.