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Craftworld having to tough it out in any way is a welcome change from the status quo. Bloody Elves.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
What is this "no non-plastic models" stuff people keep referring to?
If I have a plastic version of something, is it legit? Cuz I totally have plastic Aspect warriors, so I can play them right?

In the FAQ its suggested that with some exceptions you shouldn't expect non - plastic models to get rules at launch.

"When choosing the factions for the launch of Kill Team, we wanted to choose those armies that would plausibly be able to carry out guerilla operations as well as those with a convertible, interchangeable range of plastic models that would be easy to build specialists or other key characters from"

However we've already seen several finecast units get rules.

Ok, so it's just people assuming based on guesses.

But what do you mean "get rules at launch"? Is KT no longer an alternate way of using the existing rules?
As in, use the stats, rules and options that already exist in 40K, but now use them as individuals rather than units?

If this is a whole separate game system, then I'll have to pass. I like building on/altering the existing system. I don't have time or energy to learn something completely new, sadly.

-

Geez, with the existence of the Deathwatch: Overkill board game you would have thought they would have considered about allowing you to include a single specialist that’s TEQ, on a bike or even a dreadnought at the upper end.

 Galef wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
What is this "no non-plastic models" stuff people keep referring to?
If I have a plastic version of something, is it legit? Cuz I totally have plastic Aspect warriors, so I can play them right?

In the FAQ its suggested that with some exceptions you shouldn't expect non - plastic models to get rules at launch.

"When choosing the factions for the launch of Kill Team, we wanted to choose those armies that would plausibly be able to carry out guerilla operations as well as those with a convertible, interchangeable range of plastic models that would be easy to build specialists or other key characters from"

However we've already seen several finecast units get rules.

Ok, so it's just people assuming based on guesses.

But what do you mean "get rules at launch"? Is KT no longer an alternate way of using the existing rules?
As in, use the stats, rules and options that already exist in 40K, but now use them as individuals rather than units?

If this is a whole separate game system, then I'll have to pass. I like building on/altering the existing system. I don't have time or energy to learn something completely new, sadly.

-

All the published information from GW has been clear that yes, Kill Team is a new game, not just army list restrictions for 40k.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
All the published information from GW has been clear that yes, Kill Team is a new game, not just army list restrictions for 40k.

Lame. What frustrates me more is that I had JUST bought the 7E KT booklet a month or so prior to the announcement of 8E.

-

I've only taken a passing glace at 8th E HoR Kill Team, but their 7th was a blast. And much better than any of the official variants.

8th:
http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.com/p/kill-team-rules.html

It uses mainline rules, where practical. They amend rules that don't work for Kill Team, but in a rather consistent manner (most affects-the-unit abilities/items instead affect friendlies within 3").

I'm hoping the GW Kill Team is more similar to this. However, I'm more hopeful that GW Kill Team makes GW consider kitbashing to be first class again, and considers kitbashing when designing sprues. As awesome as the Tac kit is, the Guardian kit is terrible for this. And look at how they replaced their old SM Commander box with all its toys with just a clampack. With Kill Team talking up kitbashing, hopefully GW goes more in the Commander direction. I'm more than willing to pay the $10 more the kit was than the clampack.

Also, it would be nice for Knife Ears to not have the super rules they've always had. But the other thing CWE has 'always had' is terrible model support. Sure, new Jetbikes last edition, and Wraithguard the edition before that. But most of the range is still Finecast. Some armies have it even worse (sisters!), but not many.

To further compound that, while other newer kits (Tacs, the Tacs before them, Devs, ASM, Kabs, Wyches, etc) have lots of options on their sprues, Guardians have almost nothing. Wraithguard have a few minor options. Jetbikes are very straightforward. Dire Avenger Exarchs have a decent amount of options, but not the Aspect Warriors. Even when CWE does get plastic kits, we don't get the marvels that the Tac box or Scourge box get (two of my favorite kits in the game).

I'd love it if GW reversed both. Make CWE not OP this time, but also give us some nicer kits.

Honestly, with the creation of Primaris, I think GW is aiming for less variety instead of more. Monetarily, it makes more sense to have less “wasted” bits on a sprue.

But I would love some aspect warriors in plastic, at the least.

So, is the new Kill Team going to essentially be an updated Shadow War Armageddon?

SG

It's a separate game, not just an expansion/modification of Warhammer 40,000, that allows you to field mixed groups of individuals, and allows you to track their progress and improvement over a series of games.

So it's an updating of the concept of Shadow War Armageddon, but I don't think it'll necessarily be an update of the Shadow War / 1st edition Necromunda rules.

Galef wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
What is this "no non-plastic models" stuff people keep referring to?
If I have a plastic version of something, is it legit? Cuz I totally have plastic Aspect warriors, so I can play them right?

In the FAQ its suggested that with some exceptions you shouldn't expect non - plastic models to get rules at launch.

"When choosing the factions for the launch of Kill Team, we wanted to choose those armies that would plausibly be able to carry out guerilla operations as well as those with a convertible, interchangeable range of plastic models that would be easy to build specialists or other key characters from"

However we've already seen several finecast units get rules.

Ok, so it's just people assuming based on guesses.

But what do you mean "get rules at launch"? Is KT no longer an alternate way of using the existing rules?
As in, use the stats, rules and options that already exist in 40K, but now use them as individuals rather than units?

If this is a whole separate game system, then I'll have to pass. I like building on/altering the existing system. I don't have time or energy to learn something completely new, sadly.

-

I'm all for calling out overblown speculation, but in this case, GW literally said they wanted to choose plastic kits for this game so....

 SHUPPET wrote:

Galef wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
What is this "no non-plastic models" stuff people keep referring to?
If I have a plastic version of something, is it legit? Cuz I totally have plastic Aspect warriors, so I can play them right?

In the FAQ its suggested that with some exceptions you shouldn't expect non - plastic models to get rules at launch.

"When choosing the factions for the launch of Kill Team, we wanted to choose those armies that would plausibly be able to carry out guerilla operations as well as those with a convertible, interchangeable range of plastic models that would be easy to build specialists or other key characters from"

However we've already seen several finecast units get rules.

Ok, so it's just people assuming based on guesses.

But what do you mean "get rules at launch"? Is KT no longer an alternate way of using the existing rules?
As in, use the stats, rules and options that already exist in 40K, but now use them as individuals rather than units?

If this is a whole separate game system, then I'll have to pass. I like building on/altering the existing system. I don't have time or energy to learn something completely new, sadly.

-

I'm all for calling out overblown speculation, but in this case, GW literally said they wanted to choose plastic kits for this game so....

Actually, what they said is that they were choosing factions that have plastic models (so no sisters, for example) not that only units with plastic kits would be selected (and we see finecast units in the ork preview, for example).

What they actually actually said was:

"We’ve picked plastic kits which can be converted and kitbashed for these, plus some units – like Craftworlds Rangers and Kommandos – that it’d be weird to leave out." [Emphasis added.]

And let's please settle down with the "assuming based on guesses" shots. Some of us have actually read the press releases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The preview for Tyranids was posted today, and Warriors are included as playable. Very good news for Tyranid players and I was happy to see that. It also gives me a little bit of hope that maybe Wraithguard will make the cut.

And it should be noted the Tyranid KT had a lictor - which is finecast. So, not JUST plastic kits.

Tyranids is literally the exact line-up I predicted. Not a difficult prediction to make, it's basically the entirety of the dex's infantry other than Pyrovores and Rippers. Also, Lictor's are a reconnaissance style unit they said they wanted to build KT around, Wraithguard are the opposite. I wouldn't take Tyranid's as being an example of anything, Eldar has a whole bunch of infantry and I think it's highly unlikely they will get anything heavy. And Warriors are closer to Primaris Marines than anything too heavy.

Bharring wrote:
I've only taken a passing glace at 8th E HoR Kill Team, but their 7th was a blast. And much better than any of the official variants.

8th:
http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.com/p/kill-team-rules.html

It uses mainline rules, where practical. They amend rules that don't work for Kill Team, but in a rather consistent manner (most affects-the-unit abilities/items instead affect friendlies within 3").

I'm hoping the GW Kill Team is more similar to this. However, I'm more hopeful that GW Kill Team makes GW consider kitbashing to be first class again, and considers kitbashing when designing sprues. As awesome as the Tac kit is, the Guardian kit is terrible for this. And look at how they replaced their old SM Commander box with all its toys with just a clampack. With Kill Team talking up kitbashing, hopefully GW goes more in the Commander direction. I'm more than willing to pay the $10 more the kit was than the clampack.

Also, it would be nice for Knife Ears to not have the super rules they've always had. But the other thing CWE has 'always had' is terrible model support. Sure, new Jetbikes last edition, and Wraithguard the edition before that. But most of the range is still Finecast. Some armies have it even worse (sisters!), but not many.

To further compound that, while other newer kits (Tacs, the Tacs before them, Devs, ASM, Kabs, Wyches, etc) have lots of options on their sprues, Guardians have almost nothing. Wraithguard have a few minor options. Jetbikes are very straightforward. Dire Avenger Exarchs have a decent amount of options, but not the Aspect Warriors. Even when CWE does get plastic kits, we don't get the marvels that the Tac box or Scourge box get (two of my favorite kits in the game).

I'd love it if GW reversed both. Make CWE not OP this time, but also give us some nicer kits.

HoR killteam is great but suffers from the inclusion of units that like outside the scope of commando teams. Units like tomb blades which put out more firepower than a light tank or wraiths that ignore the terrain rules.

The OP wondering would warp spiders be included- yes they'd be awesome to play but they would also be ruinous to play against.

For this first phase Eldar will probably get:

1. Rangers
2. Guardian Defenders / Storm Guardians
3. Dire Avengers
4. Warlocks

 =Angel= wrote:

The OP wondering would warp spiders be included- yes they'd be awesome to play but they would also be ruinous to play against.

I used a warp spider kill team in a few games last edition. Wasn't very fair to my opponents. Out of six games, four of them had no dead on my side, and the other two only had one or two dead.

Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks are units I think would be perfect for Kill Team in a vacuum, but after seeing the faction previews, the game seems to be focused around boots on the ground that actually have to slog.

I'd still love to see them in the game, but it would be unfair to have them when other factions don't get theirs. If just ASM were missing, but vespids/Spiders/Hawks/Hellions/Gargs/etc all showed up, I'd expect bad rules. Consistent absence is slight evidence in favor of the rules writers and their control of the game (vs if Marketers/etc controlled the game, units would be chosen then the game would be written).

I could still see one super-fast unit like Hawks or Spiders for Craftworlders (so CWE aren't just GEQ at MEQ prices). But I'd certainly accept none, if the game is built that way. One of the reasons CWE is OP so frequently is that their toolbox has so many "unique" tools, some of them are going to be OP in any rulesset. And Hawks, Spiders, and Spears all have fluff that makes them easily gamebreaking in Killteams.

I'm resigned to Guardians/Rangers/DAs, but still hopeful we get something else - either Warlocks or more build options than we currently have for those kits.

I'm still more hopeful for what impact this might have on future CWE kits than I am for the game itself, though. May just be a pipedream, but I want CWE plastic infantry to not feel like metal monopose when deciding how to assemble them.

Also, I've been wishlisting a Killteam I'd love to assemble based on theoretical rules:

Leader:
Kit:
-Trenchcoat from the gunner on the StarWeaver
-HE unhelmeted head, looking straight ahead and a little up
-Right arm resting on his hip, near-ish a holstered Shuriken Pistol
-Left arm hovering around a sheathed sword strapped across the small of his back, with a holstered Pulse pistol (counts-as Shuriken) on his left hip nearby

Grunt:
-HE Archer crouching legs
-Guardian torso
-LasBlaster lined up for a shot
-Masked (Ranger or Wych) face, looking down the sites

CC specialist:
-Shadow Walker cloak & legs
-Greenstuff a cloak hood over the head instead of the helmets Shadow Walkers wear
-Kabalite sword in the right hand, mid-parry
-Shuriken pistol on the left, aimed straight ahead
-Face is looking out somewhat along the pistol, to where whatever he just parried is facing

Sniper:
-Another Shadow Walker cloak
-Attempt to implement the Fire Warrior stance with a shoulder-anchored rifle
-The rifle would have to be a kitbash somewhere between Lasblaster, Avenger Shuriken Catapault, and a Splinter Rifle

Tech/specialist:
-Vyper helm
-Venom pilot torso, or maybe a Reaver torso
-Guardian legs
-Left arm would be the probe/whip Guardian bit, but shortend
-Gadget of some sort on the right.
-Pistol at the hip

I don't care if I ever make these. I'm enjoying thinking about them.

X078 wrote:
For this first phase Eldar will probably get:

1. Rangers
2. Guardian Defenders / Storm Guardians
3. Dire Avengers
4. Warlocks

I think the first three on your list are basically locks, and I agree with you on those entries.

I definitely don't think Warlocks will be in though. None of the units revealed so far (and we're up to seven factions) have been characters.

I'll take a flyer and say Eldar get the first three entries on your list plus Striking Scorpions. Yes, that's an ancient resin kit, but it does have some customization options and I think the fluff will push it into the "it’d be weird to leave out" category alongside Rangers. Hopefully, they can be portrayed in a way that will be unique and fun (both to play and to play against) but not game-breaking the way Spiders could turn out to be. They're also showing as "in stock" on the US webstore, which they haven't been for most of this year, for whatever that's worth.

I'd love to see Banshees too, but I bet we won't.

I’m hoping against hope that for CWE, we will see aspect warriors - but if we do, I expect that instead of a squad of say 5 swoops, you’ll see at best only one of each aspect.

Isn’t likely we’ll get that, but that’s what I’d like to see.

I wonder if we could see a novice aspect warrior, not yet tied to a specific shrine. A proto-autarch, given upgrades to equipment like a Space Marine on the road to becoming an assault marine or veteran sergeant? You can progress down the path to Scorpion, Banshee or Hawk maybe, getting upgrades as you go?

craggy wrote:
I wonder if we could see a novice aspect warrior, not yet tied to a specific shrine. A proto-autarch, given upgrades to equipment like a Space Marine on the road to becoming an assault marine or veteran sergeant? You can progress down the path to Scorpion, Banshee or Hawk maybe, getting upgrades as you go?

Interestingly when they actually could be bothered to include Sisters in ShadowWar they did put in novices (first time that I am aware of) so its not impossible but seems unlikely when they can just go: Rangers, Guardians, Dire Avengers.

I'd rather they did Scorpions than Guardians really, Guardians are a bit out of their depth.

Corsairs now would be fun but...they current previews seem to make that level of customisation sadly unlikely.

craggy wrote:
I wonder if we could see a novice aspect warrior, not yet tied to a specific shrine. A proto-autarch, given upgrades to equipment like a Space Marine on the road to becoming an assault marine or veteran sergeant? You can progress down the path to Scorpion, Banshee or Hawk maybe, getting upgrades as you go?

Kill team is a great opportunity to explore that kind of background.

You will have to do it through counts-as or homebrew though, as the focus of this KT is on basic infantry and infiltrators- with limited choices so they can get the rule-set tighter.

They wouldn't be a novice Aspect Warrior until they are tied to a Shrine. They don't walk *the* Path of the Khaine, they walk *a* Path of Khaine - that of the Avenger or whatever.

A proto-Exarch would be very cool, though. As in, the first soul to become an Exarch in that armor. Their weaponry and fighting style would evolve into something unique.

An Eldar is walking a Path until they take another Path. An Autarch is (in theory) "done" walking the paths of the Scorpion, Banshee, and/or Hawk when it comes to that. The wargear are not pieces the Autarch collects: the Shrines they have previously walked provide them to him/her.

However, it could be a full-Autarch who just took standard kit (shuriken catapault) who walked different paths, and could unlock "remembering" parts of previous paths over progression - same crunch, slightly but critically different fluff.

I like the idea, but needs small tweaks to make "right".

This concept, however, makes me think Outcasts/Corsairs would make a more compelling Kill Team than CWE. You could even use the CWE book, but being Outcasts allow the kind of customization you're talking about. An outcast who's been a Scorpion might pick up some Scorpion kit in the field. An outcast mgiht use a sniper rifle and camo cloak. An outcast would show more progression and uniqueness.

When I make a kill team, it's quite likely I'll be doing all outcasts. Rangers are already outcasts, and Corsairs are just Guardians with different (more) customization options. Dire Avengers are Craftworlders, but could easily be represented.

As a final note, on Aspect Warriors: if they did include any, it would be really cool if they didn't get their 'shrine' skills (defensive training, assured destruction, etc) base, but it was one of the upgrade trees like a specialist. That might show a "neophyte" aspect warrior better than wargear changing during progression. I'm clearly wishlisting though.

Oh, I know it's not strictly in the fluff as such. But fluff changes. They have to give us something to moan about than rules and pricing.

You'll probably not see any resin aspect warriors due to that they want plastic primarily (with a few stated exceptions) and the resin Aspect Warriors are probably due for a plastic overhaul in a near future.
Also Warlock conclaves are not characters, that and their 2W characteristics coupled with Thousand Sons also coming is why i think Warlocks are in.

Also, they excepted Rangers from the "but resin" requirement, and excepting two units from the same army seems less likely.

If we got Warlocks, half the fanbase will be up in arms about us knifeears even if our rules suck. But I'm still hoping for Warlocks.

Or, more specifically, Warlock. Hopefully limited to 1, even limited to being the leader would be good.

We'll see. As I said, I realize I'm going out on a limb with the Scorpion prediction. And I realize that they'd be CWE's second resin unit but _so many_ of the codex's are. I continue to think that Scorpions fit the stated fluff goals of KT perfectly and that there's a good shot they're in.

I still don't think there's any way we'll see Warlocks. I'll be happy to do the "you were right and I was wrong" post if we do though.

[Edit: typo]

No worries, just elaborating on my thoughts. Will be fun either way

Is there a plastic Warlock kit?