ATC Drama

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**djones520**

MVBrandt wrote:
Curtis is defending his real life friends. He'd be a gak person if he abandoned them over a game.

I think the point I would generally make to you is that when you claim insider relationships or unfair advantages, I stop listening. It's conspiratorial at best and stupid on the average. I have as close a friendship with regular last place finishers as first, and building relationships is a huge part of why NOVA exists. I met my wife through a regular winless buddy I met by his attendance at NOVA.

And it's not a strawman to say the top tables don't matter very much. They don't. The legitimacy of the event isn't based upon who wins bracket 1. The GT represents 250 of 2500 attendees, most of whom themselves aren't affected by whoever the top players are. And NOVA really doesn't have a long history of cheating and illegal lists getting by. Alan's was permanently altered and penalized the moment his error was caught, for example. No fuss, no frills.

Ultimately the toxicity in this community comes from two small sources - douches who can't win without cheating, gotcha calls, clock hogging, etc, and yet who only affect a tiny handful of games, and gakky internet warriors who demand blood over their actions while ignoring and detracting from the experience of the vast, vast majority just looking to enjoy some fun games while building friendships and raising money for charity.

And if you think we as TOs ignore the douches and choose to do nothing, well, as per above we already know conspiratorial naivete is a running trend. We're just not as interested in publicizing them as much as the internet wishes.

I'd like to point out that the actions of Team Happy affected more then "a handful of games". The delays that they caused while the TO's were forced to deal with the issue affected 380 people, and the games they were meant to play.

**MVBrandt**

I'm not speaking for ATC or team happy. I only entered this convo because someone made the very tired, decade old claim that if we got rid of the cheaters there'd be different people winning events. Which is by and large highly inaccurate. Same as those who say if we only fixed "x" balance issue we'd have different people winning events. It's not my place to weigh in on how ATC was handled, and certain members of Happy are getting reamed hard enough without an independent TO who wasn't there piling on.

**Anglacon**

MVBrandt wrote:
when you claim insider relationships or unfair advantages, I stop listening

Maybe you SHOULD listen.
My first ever Adepticon, i played Aaron Aelong game 1. We were having a great game when they came over the loudspeakers and said "Last turn, do not start another round".
I asked him if this was indeed our last turn. he looked at the board, and said "Yes".

He finished his turn, and when I started to move models he said "we said this was last turn". He Had FORGOTTEN he went first. So I played my last turn.
I moved my raiders out onto objectives and won the game.
Suddenly, he DEMANDED we play another turn. I said no.
He got his FRIEND (on the same freaking team) who was reffing to come over and force us to play another turn (After they said NO MORE TURNS remember). I asked to move my models back because I would not just put them out in the open if we were playing more.
His FRIEND and TEAMMATE the REF, told me no.
I lost the game (obviously) but for you to say there are no unfair advantages for Jerks like this, you are 100% wrong. Just because you have not been a victim of it does not mean it does not exist.

**JohnHwangDD**

MVBrandt wrote:
Curtis is defending his real life friends. He'd be a gak person if he abandoned them over a game.

If his friends are gak people (and from all reports they ALL are), then he should simply STFU, lest he further confirm himself to be a gak person (which he has).

Defending cheaters caught in the act of cheating is a gak hill to die on.

**beast_gts**

Tournament Code of Conduct Discussion thread, by "Tony, captain of Team Happy"

**djones520**

beast_gts wrote:
Tournament Code of Conduct Discussion thread, by "Tony, captain of Team Happy"

Oh hey look. Still blaming their disqualification on not themselves.

**Anglacon**

djones520 wrote:

Oh hey look. Still blaming their disqualification on not themselves.

I was there. They were out in the parking lot, feeding orphans when the other teams got together to try to get them kicked out.

I still laughed when I read "Accidentally used..."
If they can't even be honest after getting caught red-handed, they never will be.

**djones520**

Anglacon wrote:
djones520 wrote:

Oh hey look. Still blaming their disqualification on not themselves.

I was there. They were out in the parking lot, feeding orphans when the other teams got together to try to get them kicked out.

Quiet. You're not supposed to let out the news of the cabal that all of us Team Captains had going on. We'll all be wearing T-shirts next year. "I'm responsible for Team Happy getting kicked out, not their cheating, or ignoring of the rules."

**Red Corsair**

MVBrandt wrote:

And it's not a strawman to say the top tables don't matter very much.

That's not the straw man I pointed out and you know it. The straw man is painting all criticism as a some BS mob from a creature feature from the silver screen so it can be demonized and gak can carry on as usual. You really don't have a leg to stand on here considering you have done it yourself repeatedly in the thread I linked for all to read, I encourage them to as well. That was the same thread where you claimed any one that doesn't pay to attend can go

off.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/714710.page#9590155

**beast_gts**

beast_gts wrote:
Tournament Code of Conduct Discussion thread, by "Tony, captain of Team Happy"

Do we know it's actually him, and not a troll causing trouble? (not sure why that didn't post originally...)

**MVBrandt**

Red Corsair wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:

And it's not a strawman to say the top tables don't matter very much.

That's not the straw man I pointed out and you know it. The straw man is painting all criticism as a some BS mob from a creature feature from the silver screen so it can be demonized and gak can carry on as usual. You really don't have a leg to stand on here considering you have done it yourself repeatedly in the thread I linked for all to read, I encourage them to as well. That was the same thread where you claimed any one that doesn't pay to attend can go off.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/714710.page#9590155

The problem is the gak doesn't carry on as usual. That's the problem and naivete in the observation. And I really don't care about your judgement - that's the fundamental point. When people loudly proclaim something happens that isn't, and when we are successfully achieving our mission to raise hundreds of thousands for charity, I could care less about what a misled conspiracy theorist thinks about an event he wouldn't attend to begin with.

And I don't particularly care how other events are run, to the person with the AdeptiCon Aleong example. I thought that was clear from my prior comments about ATC.

**Red Corsair**

MVBrandt wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:

And it's not a strawman to say the top tables don't matter very much.

That's not the straw man I pointed out and you know it. The straw man is painting all criticism as a some BS mob from a creature feature from the silver screen so it can be demonized and gak can carry on as usual. You really don't have a leg to stand on here considering you have done it yourself repeatedly in the thread I linked for all to read, I encourage them to as well. That was the same thread where you claimed any one that doesn't pay to attend can go off.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/714710.page#9590155

The problem is the gak doesn't carry on as usual. That's the problem and naivete in the observation. And I really don't care about your judgement - that's the fundamental point. When people loudly proclaim something happens that isn't, and when we are successfully achieving our mission to raise hundreds of thousands for charity, I could care less about what a misled conspiracy theorist thinks about an event he wouldn't attend to begin with.

And I don't particularly care how other events are run, to the person with the AdeptiCon Aleong example. I thought that was clear from my prior comments about ATC.

If the problem isn't real and not becoming more prolific, then why is there a sudden push for a standardized code of conduct and sanctions? This is you waving your hand again, and when called out on it you start muddying the conversation with ad hominems over and over until the message is lost or the thread gets locked.

For a busy guy with a carefree attitude toward other events who sees no issues worth addressing, you sure are getting emotional over someone else event btw.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and for the record I shared a link to last years NOVA thread because the SAME, made up, toxic mob of trolls defense was used by DJ3 and yourself in response to cheating that happened on one of your top tables caught on stream. Followed by the same, if your not attending shut up, and then the inevitable we raised money for charity therefore who cares about tournament standards and conduct because that isn't our goal. Charity is great, it also doesn't mean you don't have a duty to run a tighter tournament where cheaters are knocked out, even if the mistake is unintentional.

**ChargerIIC**

beast_gts wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Tournament Code of Conduct Discussion thread, by "Tony, captain of Team Happy"

Do we know it's actually him, and not a troll causing trouble? (not sure why that didn't post originally...)

"We want to establish taht we did nothing wrong and if we did it's the fault of the ITC for not having proper rules to stop us"

Kinda sounds like Tony.

**Asmodios**

ChargerIIC wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Tournament Code of Conduct Discussion thread, by "Tony, captain of Team Happy"

Do we know it's actually him, and not a troll causing trouble? (not sure why that didn't post originally...)

"We want to establish taht we did nothing wrong and if we did it's the fault of the ITC for not having proper rules to stop us"

Kinda sounds like Tony.

Yeah it seems authentic as it sounds exactly like their official apology "we made mistakes but x,y and z are just as responsible". The timing of it is bad as well because ITC has already announced an official code of conduct because of this event so now it looks like them trying to get ahead of the news.... while simultaneously being behind.

**JohnHwangDD**

Guys, the easiest fix is to simply perma-ban Team Happy from all ITC events going forward. How hard is that?

**Peregrine**

MVBrandt wrote:
I only entered this convo because someone made the very tired, decade old claim that if we got rid of the cheaters there'd be different people winning events.

That's a rather bold statement to make, given the fact that the cheating team won the past three years of the event in question. Ban the cheaters and there would have to be different people winning.

**ChargerIIC**

Asmodios wrote:
ChargerIIC wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Tournament Code of Conduct Discussion thread, by "Tony, captain of Team Happy"

Do we know it's actually him, and not a troll causing trouble? (not sure why that didn't post originally...)

"We want to establish taht we did nothing wrong and if we did it's the fault of the ITC for not having proper rules to stop us"

Kinda sounds like Tony.

Yeah it seems authentic as it sounds exactly like their official apology "we made mistakes but x,y and z are just as responsible". The timing of it is bad as well because ITC has already announced an official code of conduct because of this event so now it looks like them trying to get ahead of the news.... while simultaneously being behind.

I think they are part of the ITC TO group and are hoping to claim some of the glory of the content's creation.

**Asmodios**

Peregrine wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:
I only entered this convo because someone made the very tired, decade old claim that if we got rid of the cheaters there'd be different people winning events.

That's a rather bold statement to make, given the fact that the cheating team won the past three years of the event in question. Ban the cheaters and there would have to be different people winning.

Yup, even this year if they had never been banned using free plasma guns and "rough riders" half the size of normal ones they would have likely won again. Obviously, not only cheaters win major evens but after this and the London GT so close to each other, it is clear that cheaters are winning many of these events. Just look at some of team happys conduct even at the LVO this year. This is also just what has been caught, I can't even imagine what they got away with at events like LVO before they hit the top tables.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChargerIIC wrote:
Asmodios wrote:
ChargerIIC wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Tournament Code of Conduct Discussion thread, by "Tony, captain of Team Happy"

Do we know it's actually him, and not a troll causing trouble? (not sure why that didn't post originally...)

"We want to establish taht we did nothing wrong and if we did it's the fault of the ITC for not having proper rules to stop us"

Kinda sounds like Tony.

Yeah it seems authentic as it sounds exactly like their official apology "we made mistakes but x,y and z are just as responsible". The timing of it is bad as well because ITC has already announced an official code of conduct because of this event so now it looks like them trying to get ahead of the news.... while simultaneously being behind.

I think they are part of the ITC TO group and are hoping to claim some of the glory of the content's creation.

I hope the ITC doesn't let them be a part of it... Just for appearance alone the smartest move for the ITC would be to start to distance themselves from this group and remove them from any official leadership roles

**greyknight12**

MVBrandt wrote:
The problem is the gak doesn't carry on as usual. That's the problem and naivete in the observation. And I really don't care about your judgement - that's the fundamental point. When people loudly proclaim something happens that isn't, and when we are successfully achieving our mission to raise hundreds of thousands for charity, I could care less about what a misled conspiracy theorist thinks about an event he wouldn't attend to begin with.

And I don't particularly care how other events are run, to the person with the AdeptiCon Aleong example. I thought that was clear from my prior comments about ATC.

I’ve been to NOVA, Adepticon, and LVO. A lot of the other people criticizing the way tournaments are being run are regular tournament attendees, and even the non-tournament attendees often identify their reasons for not attending being directly related to negative experiences in the past. So to characterize the criticism in the way you have is unfair and says more about your ability as a TO and community organizer to take inputs. All people want is an event that is billed as competitive to have some sort of repercussions for cheating; the outrage comes when it becomes clear that there is little to no interest in doing so for a variety of reasons.
Furthermore, raising money for charity isn’t the objective of many other tournaments, so even if that gives you some sort of moral high ground it doesn’t give all events and TOs a free pass.

**Byte**

ANY one player or attendee that pays an entry fee is a stake holder in the results/events. It might be charity giving away money (good for you btw) but its not buying in.

NOVA SHOULD care. Its disturbing that you don't and says a lot about you.

Prizes, placement, and payout. This everyone gets a ribbon mentally is for school children. For those that honestly don't care and show up to party and lose, good for them. But don't put everybody in ine basket

Otherwise, just start a gofundme.

You get the handwave this time. Im so over this cheating and subsequent dismissive responses. Whose stealing now? I thought the cheaters were stealing prices. Turns out its not the wolves that slaughter the lambs, its the shepherd that left the lambs unattended.

**Primark G**

Anglacon wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:
when you claim insider relationships or unfair advantages, I stop listening

Maybe you SHOULD listen.
My first ever Adepticon, i played Aaron Aelong game 1. We were having a great game when they came over the loudspeakers and said "Last turn, do not start another round".
I asked him if this was indeed our last turn. he looked at the board, and said "Yes".

He finished his turn, and when I started to move models he said "we said this was last turn". He Had FORGOTTEN he went first. So I played my last turn.
I moved my raiders out onto objectives and won the game.
Suddenly, he DEMANDED we play another turn. I said no.
He got his FRIEND (on the same freaking team) who was reffing to come over and force us to play another turn (After they said NO MORE TURNS remember). I asked to move my models back because I would not just put them out in the open if we were playing more.
His FRIEND and TEAMMATE the REF, told me no.
I lost the game (obviously) but for you to say there are no unfair advantages for Jerks like this, you are 100% wrong. Just because you have not been a victim of it does not mean it does not exist.

I have to ask - why should we believe you?

**Asmodios**

Primark G wrote:
Anglacon wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:
when you claim insider relationships or unfair advantages, I stop listening

Maybe you SHOULD listen.
My first ever Adepticon, i played Aaron Aelong game 1. We were having a great game when they came over the loudspeakers and said "Last turn, do not start another round".
I asked him if this was indeed our last turn. he looked at the board, and said "Yes".

He finished his turn, and when I started to move models he said "we said this was last turn". He Had FORGOTTEN he went first. So I played my last turn.
I moved my raiders out onto objectives and won the game.
Suddenly, he DEMANDED we play another turn. I said no.
He got his FRIEND (on the same freaking team) who was reffing to come over and force us to play another turn (After they said NO MORE TURNS remember). I asked to move my models back because I would not just put them out in the open if we were playing more.
His FRIEND and TEAMMATE the REF, told me no.
I lost the game (obviously) but for you to say there are no unfair advantages for Jerks like this, you are 100% wrong. Just because you have not been a victim of it does not mean it does not exist.

I have to ask - why should we believe you?

At this point why wouldn't you? It matches other stories I've heard that now match multiple events that have happened in just this past year. People stop getting the benefit of the doubt after multiple offenses.

**Primark G**

I would never take the word of an obviously bitter loser.

**perrin23860**

Sounds like several tournament games I've been in...

I think some folks are insulated from a lot of the cheating because of various reasons, like ignorance, gullibility, or being icons of the community who the cheaters dare not go full out against. The rest of us need to be as wise as the serpents or fall victim. It's the same as in any competitive setting, whether football, poker, magic, etc, except the 40k community has shown hardly any wherewithal to curb the phenomenon in decades. The bad apples are more prevalent than the naive ones realize. It skews their perspective.

It's unfortunate, but I'm ever hopeful.

I look at cheaters like this. "He who is not faithful in a small thing, will not be faithful in a large thing"

40k is a small thing. Rolling dice and a chance to win some plastic is a small thing.

You cheat for that, Lord knows what you'd do to me. Zero chance of me wanting to associate with you.

Primark G wrote:
I would never take the word of an obviously bitter loser.

I imagine you dont believe anything Hillary says then...

**Chief Librarian Mephiston**

Primark G wrote:
I would never take the word of an obviously bitter loser.

Or maybe he's a person who was wronged, and is justifiably upset over being blatantly screwed over? But I guess in your view, everybody who's upset when they're unfairly screwed over is "an obviously bitter loser"? Good job on excusing terrible behavior by taking shots at the people upset over the fact that they were treated unfairly.

**Primark G**

Any poasts from anyone anon is not legit when smearing another poster. We all know who is Tony - he has chosen not to hide behind the wall.

**Crimson Devil**

I would like to point out you are smearing another poster while being anonymous.

**JohnHwangDD**

What's nice is that this thread makes it clear which players are cheaters and can be Ignored. It's basically a rolling gak test to find scumbag cheaters.

**FTGTEvan**

perrin23860 wrote:
Sounds like several tournament games I've been in...

Sounds like one tournament game I've been in. Of well over 100. I've caught people making mistakes, sure. I've had people be stingy or loose in their favor, switch the understanding of the game from open to by the book midway, and people misrepresent or misremember rules. I've made mistakes too.

Tarring and feathering anyone who makes a mistake is not a healthy way to go about it. Cheaters with a history and clear willingness to continue their behaviour over a game of toy soliders need to be shown the door, no doubt. But I can't tell you how many times I have overheard "he f-ing cheated in X minute way, otherwise I would have won." It's nearly as prevalent and useless as blaming dice. And believing, and arguing over and over that cheating is prevalent and accepted only hurts the community.

**Kirasu**

One thing is for sure, there is a lot more attention paid to the top tables now especially with Twitch streams being everywhere. "Accidental" or intentional, it's going to get more and more difficult to do this kind of gak and get away with it.

I would like to point out you are smearing another poster while being anonymous.

Just because we're on Dakka doesn't mean people don't know who we are, especially if we go to tournaments or have incredibly obvious signature blocks or usernames.