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I'm arguing that having one hella broken character that increases the damage output of your models by up to 244% if they stand near him is very hard to balance, because his value has everything to do with the units around him. So either you are using the exact combo of units that makes him worth 400 points, or you aren't, and he isn't worth that. This doesn't help SM in general, it just helps one gimmicky list that uses a badly designed unit. (That being said, congrats to the guy who won with it. I can be happy for him and still want GW to fix Marines).
Ok, but at 2000 points you can most definitely fit enough units to make that worthwhile. And of course a unit restricted to one Chapter doesn't help SM in general. I didn't say that it helps the entire dex. I didn't even said it helped anyone. I just said Roboute is not overpriced in competitive games.
I'm unsure how saying "b-b-b-buh it's bad design tho!" counters anything I put forth. I didn't say it was good design. I didn't say every unit in SM is fine and every Chapter is playable. I didn't say any of the gak you guys are crying about.
I literally just said ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN is a well costed model COMPETITIVELY. In ITC he most definitely isn't too costly if used well. Point at his bad design all you want, I never even disagreed with that at all, and specifically clarified I'm not weighing in on that, because it doesn't have anything to do with what I said. If anything your arguments are supporting my point, he has to cost that much because of the value it can give out in a 2000 pts list by your own admission. Stop framing them as though it's an answer to my question or as though I said something I haven't.
It's possible to agree with your very one dimensional claim ("is he worth it? Yes!"), and then talk about why, in what specific cases it's true, what it's weaknesses are, if it's good game design, and if it helps the faction or even the game as a whole, and so on. If we're not allowed to expand upon or add some nuance to your somewhat black and white stance than I don't think we'd have as valuable a discussion.
I'm arguing that having one hella broken character that increases the damage output of your models by up to 244% if they stand near him is very hard to balance, because his value has everything to do with the units around him. So either you are using the exact combo of units that makes him worth 400 points, or you aren't, and he isn't worth that. This doesn't help SM in general, it just helps one gimmicky list that uses a badly designed unit. (That being said, congrats to the guy who won with it. I can be happy for him and still want GW to fix Marines).
Ok, but at 2000 points you can most definitely fit enough units to make that worthwhile. And of course a unit restricted to one Chapter doesn't help SM in general. I didn't say that it helps the entire dex. I didn't even said it helped anyone. I just said Roboute is not overpriced in competitive games.
I'm unsure how saying "b-b-b-buh it's bad design tho!" counters anything I put forth. I didn't say it was good design. I didn't say every unit in SM is fine and every Chapter is playable. I didn't say any of the gak you guys are crying about.
I literally just said ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN is a well costed model COMPETITIVELY. In ITC he most definitely isn't too costly if used well. Point at his bad design all you want, I never even disagreed with that at all, and specifically clarified I'm not weighing in on that, because it doesn't have anything to do with what I said. If anything your arguments are supporting my point, he has to cost that much because of the value it can give out in a 2000 pts list by your own admission. Stop framing them as though it's an answer to my question or as though I said something I haven't.
It's possible to agree with your very one dimensional claim ("is he worth it? Yes!"), and then talk about why, in what specific cases it's true, what it's weaknesses are, if it's good game design, and if it helps the faction or even the game as a whole, and so on. If we're not allowed to expand upon or add some nuance to your somewhat black and white stance than I don't think we'd have as valuable a discussion.
That's absolutely fine to expand upon my statement, and kick off discussion upon his design... that's not at all what was done though.
SHUPPET wrote: OK so what you describe is a well costed model then? Balance revolves around how a model plays when used well, not when used poorly. As it stands he's a 400 point model who makes an entire build work, one that sees success at the highest levels of the game. He is not overcosted at all, he just might not be right for every single thing you may want to do with the codex as a whole.
The answer is incredibly simple don't use shonky aura buffs that can't be priced appropriately as it throws the points costing of the rest of the codex to heck in a handbasket. If they had stopped and thought about how to balance the codex with and without Bobby G for more than a nano second or maybe playtested the first codex of the most playtested edition. It's really poor game design when you reward players more for making bad match up choices.
Lol nope, that's not the answer because nothing you mentioned in this rant ever came into question at any point so far
The answer is "yes he's a strong unit"
Does Bobby G play like a 400 point model in a 1.5K point game no he doesn't. Does he play like a 400 point model at 3K or more No he doesn't. So the point stands at no points level will the aura buff be balanced as it's worth is too dependent on the rest of the list being built to exploit it. Also the ability to abuse the biff by building a castle and never moving also comes into how effective the army is and hence how much it's worth as it's not worth any points if you have to move out of it to hold objectives.
Maybe your point does stand. But at no stage did anyone bar yourself mention, disagree, or comment on that point.
This is entirely you injecting something unrelated to the discussion so you can bitch about game design.
What was in question was the claim that in competitive play, Roboute is too expensive for what he provides. The answer to that is quite simply, nah. He ain't. Maybe that's wrong and I'm all ears as to why, but talking about how well he is designed, or pointing at different game modes nobody plays, doesn't invalidate his gameplay strength in the one everyone does. So framing as that it's some sort of counter or even response to what I said is a fallacy.
It's quite unmistakeably framed as a counter to my statement, not an expansion upon it, and I even point this out, multiple times. Here's where you jumped in with this post, also quite clearly framed as though it's countering something I'm saying
Spoiler:
jcd386 wrote: I think his poor design is a part of the equation, though. His aura is too much of a force multiplier that it can only be "balanced" at it's highest level of synergy with units the SM can access.
He's really only worth 400 points if you pile a bunch of high rate of fire low-med Str shooting units around him, ideally ones that move and still fire without the normal penalties. Fire raptors and repulsers, namely.
You also pretty much have to go first in order to not lose any of these units and suffer a significant reduction of firepower, since he is taking up 400 points of the list. The low model count helps this though.
So sure, if you can meet all of those very specific criteria, he might be worth his points, but if you don't, he certainly isn't. That seems like a pretty big asterisk to put after the "yes he's worth 400 points."
His current cost feels like a bandaid until they can put in some time to rewrite his rules to something that isn't as difficult to balance in a more quantifiable way.
If you want to go ahead and bitch and cry all day about RG's design hurting other Chapters or boxing Ultramarines into a mono build, or whatever else, feel free to, I'm not interesting in rehashing that topic for the millionth time. What I was quite definitively saying is that RG is costed at what he needs to be for competitive play, in response to someone implying that he wasn't. That's simply all there was to my statement.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Yes he probably is. The reason some people don't think he is, is because they likely aren't piling enough of the right units around him, like fire raptors and repulsors. For anyone else trying to build a more typical marine list + Roboute, he likely isn't worth 400 points.
So I'm just adding "if you take exactly the right units" to the statement "he is worth 400 points." You could argue that this goes for most units and army builds, and to an extent you'd be right, but not to the extent that I'm talking about with RG.
jcd386 wrote: Yes he probably is. The reason some people don't think he is, is because they likely aren't piling enough of the right units around him, like fire raptors and repulsors. For anyone else trying to build a more typical marine list + Roboute, he likely isn't worth 400 points.
So I'm just adding "if you take exactly the right units" to the statement "he is worth 400 points." You could argue that this goes for most units and army builds, and to an extent you'd be right, but not to the extent that I'm talking about with RG.
I agree with that man, I'm just saying though, he's definitely not an overcosted unit, he works at his current point value for what you CAN do with him. Should an army that's supposed to be built on versatility be able to do much more? I think so, and it's kind of a shame, but it's also got some great units inside and there is some real hyperbole thrown around too often concerning the dex
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
jcd386 wrote: Yes he probably is. The reason some people don't think he is, is because they likely aren't piling enough of the right units around him, like fire raptors and repulsors. For anyone else trying to build a more typical marine list + Roboute, he likely isn't worth 400 points.
So I'm just adding "if you take exactly the right units" to the statement "he is worth 400 points." You could argue that this goes for most units and army builds, and to an extent you'd be right, but not to the extent that I'm talking about with RG.
I agree with that man, I'm just saying though, he's definitely not an overcosted unit, he works at his current point value for what you CAN do with him. Should an army that's supposed to be built on versatility be able to do much more? I think so, and it's kind of a shame, but it's also got some great units inside and there is some real hyperbole thrown around too often concerning the dex
I don't think he works at his current point level. Outside of a few isolated cases, Ultramarines aren't doing very well, and many players are using Calgar because more bodies really is king, and frankly some of the stratagems are just flat better as Raven Guard. For instance, if you're building a list to take advantage of double hellfire /w single hbdevs they're just better as Raven Guard, because they're not even rolling to wound.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I fail to see why the ATC results are any less valid than this snowflake 2200 random extra rules results.
Sample size of the ATC is larger, many more games were played.
The players at the ATC are probably better (play more games, more organized teams). Many nationally ranked.
The format of the ATC encourages to put together an army that only features it's strengths and then leverage those strengths as much as possible by choosing opponents/tables. Seems to be a much better test of an armies best than relying on random match-ups on random boards.
An average of all players of a factions scores probably represent the abilities of that faction rather than one player.
Guilliman isn't viable at top competitive tables because he creates too many auto-lose situations. Pretty much going second against a high fire-power list he loses because he turns glass pea-shooters into glass cannons. That 300 point unit of hell blasters is now effectively a 400 point unit that hasn't gained any defense and dies just as easy to DE blaster fire.
There are no great units in the SM dex because if there was a powerful combo that was really good at something it would have shown and excelled at a tournament (ATC) which is all about bringing the most busted stuff in your dex and using it vs it's best match-up.
I'm curious what units you are calling great and in what codex? Captain smash-face is great in the BA dex but mediocre in all the rest. Hellblasters are good for DA but vanilla not so much. Dev squads are pretty good, scouts are passable, storm ravens would be good if they didn't pay the transport tax, tigarius is a solid unit but is held back by mediocre (at best) marine powers, guilliman is a good unit but is held back by the limitations of the rest of the vanilla dex, both forms of inceptors are too fragile and are hurt badly by the new deepstrike rule (although the DA plasma ones can put a hurt on something but they only last one turn.) Maybe scout bikers and raven guard aggressors and calling them great is pushing it at best as they are mostly situationally effective and are hard countered by the best armies out there (all that 2d shooting...)
I'm not seeing anything great. I'd consider reapers, shining spears, ravagers, grots, 2++ bullgryn, eldar flyers, wave serpants, flyrants, tau commanders, knight Castilians, custode bikes, demon princes, cultists, guardsmen among others great. SM just don't compete with these types of units.
Marmatag wrote: One person ran Grey Knights and found success. I wonder if it was 3 Imperial Knights and a Grey Knights warlord with tiny detachment lol
The Mod posted the list in the comments! It a strange list for sure. 50% grey knight then approximately ~25% blood angels, 25% deathwatch. Seems to spam Psilencers
You're just saying that because you're a [faction]-lover you silly [unit]-user. Obviously, the format is just fine. If you really understood GK, you'd see how brilliant it is!
At this point, I kinda want scouts and captains deleted from the BA codex. Just to prove a point. This is just as dumb as Admech renting an entire formation of BA drop pods.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/25 18:22:40
Martel732 wrote: At this point, I kinda want scouts and captains deleted from the BA codex. Just to prove a point. This is just as dumb as Admech renting and entire formation of BA drop pods.
Literally they don't even need to remove the captains - just a single relic - and stratagem and the entire army crumbles and falls apart.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jcd386 wrote: Let's put aside any disagreement for a moment and just marvel at how terrible that amy list format is.
Yeah it's quite possibly the worst I've ever seen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/25 18:21:33
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I actually detest Battlescribe in general. I can write out a list by hand far quicker than clicking through all the options. I can write 15 X CC scouts on paper and be done.
Martel732 wrote: I actually detest Battlescribe in general. I can write out a list by hand far quicker than clicking through all the options. I can write 15 X CC scouts on paper and be done.
And then yes, there is the export function. UGH.
I love it as I have severe carpal tunnel and tendonitis so writing can actually be super aggravating after even 10 minutes.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I like the app more, in large part because I'll add a bunch of units to it, then drop units off until I'm in about the right point range. That kind of agility takes a bit longer with pen & paper, when you're making your list on the fly.
jcd386 wrote: Let's put aside any disagreement for a moment and just marvel at how terrible that amy list format is.
That's what happens when you copy paste from Battlescribe. I LOVE Battlescribe but it makes some of you guys super lazy.
I use battle scribe to make lists sometimes - but if I am going to post a list to Dakka... I just type it out. We aren't supposed to post points anyways.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
jcd386 wrote: Let's put aside any disagreement for a moment and just marvel at how terrible that amy list format is.
That's what happens when you copy paste from Battlescribe. I LOVE Battlescribe but it makes some of you guys super lazy.
I use battle scribe to make lists sometimes - but if I am going to post a list to Dakka... I just type it out. We aren't supposed to post points anyways.
Haha didn't realize the list format would cause so much discussion. I just copy pasted it from the article where the mod posted the players list. to answer marmatags question. Didn't mean to derail the conversation so much....
Marmatag wrote: One person ran Grey Knights and found success. I wonder if it was 3 Imperial Knights and a Grey Knights warlord with tiny detachment lol
Grey Knights are well suited to the ATC format, where the team can pick match up to help them avoid playing against Daemons.
I would really love to see how they selected that GK list and for what match-ups. Obviously that is not a take-all-comers list.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: I would really love to see how they selected that GK list and for what match-ups. Obviously that is not a take-all-comers list.
It's got pretty nice dakka. The list is basically all storm bolters and psilencers. Sounds like a decent attacking list you run into a horde, the horde players picks it because lolGK, and then they got shot off the board.
jcd386 wrote: Let's put aside any disagreement for a moment and just marvel at how terrible that amy list format is.
That's what happens when you copy paste from Battlescribe. I LOVE Battlescribe but it makes some of you guys super lazy.
I use battle scribe to make lists sometimes - but if I am going to post a list to Dakka... I just type it out. We aren't supposed to post points anyways.
I entirely agree. Battlescribe does not give good formatting, peoples laziness is atrocious, it's so much easier to read if you just type it out.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Looks like a pretty basic list that creates a very large spread out footprint on the board. with a Jumppack LIbby to supercharge a GMNDK or BA Captain.
I'm just not sure there is actually a good list this counters.
