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Martel732 wrote:
Russ tanks are fantastic. For a number of reasons.

except Vanquishers.
Those are a joke tank

Karol wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Cultiststeve wrote:
They are run as catachan for the reroll, which usually means they are getting 5+ shots a turn.

Ok, that's 5 shots per turn. 2.5 will hit, no more than 2.08 of that will wound, and then you probably get a save. So we'll be generous and call it two models per turn dead. How many turns is it going to take to kill 100 points worth of models? At least 3 turns if you're shooting at elite infantry, longer than an entire game if it's a horde of cannon fodder on the other side of the table. Most of the time the Basilisk's firepower just isn't all that impressive.

Especially if you are running a slower / gunline army that cannot tag them in melee combat, and get the second turn...

Stop trying to out-gunline an IG gunline. Of course you're going to lose when you do something that foolish. Take faster units that can engage the gunline, and accept the Basilisk's firepower as acceptable losses for a couple of turns while you slaughter their other stuff.

But isn't the problem with IG, that if you try to melee them you get first hit by counter charging jebikers, and sometimes that is followed by ogryns? Although this maybe different for other armies, my expiriance is that that IG armies are almost as deadly in melee as eldar.

Ig has no jetbikes. Are we talking about ig or imperium soap? Pure ig isn't dominating tournaments. And frankly soap means 40k will be mess anyway

ValentineGames wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Russ tanks are fantastic. For a number of reasons.

except Vanquishers.
Those are a joke tank

No one is talking about Vanquisher when discussing Leman Russ Battle Tanks

Unless you have Forgeworld one. Those things are so much of an upgrade they are ALMOST as good as the stock Battlecannon.

Stux wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Russ tanks are fantastic. For a number of reasons.

except Vanquishers.
Those are a joke tank

No one is talking about Vanquisher when discussing Leman Russ Battle Tanks

I'd just house rule that it gets 2 shots against Monstrous creatures and vehicles with main gun and can Re-Roll failed wound rolls with the main gun.

Not great as random damage rolls will always suck ass...but...meh. better than nothing.

ValentineGames wrote:

Stux wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Russ tanks are fantastic. For a number of reasons.

except Vanquishers.
Those are a joke tank

No one is talking about Vanquisher when discussing Leman Russ Battle Tanks

I'd just house rule that it gets 2 shots against Monstrous creatures and vehicles with main gun and can Re-Roll failed wound rolls with the main gun.

Not great as random damage rolls will always suck ass...but...meh. better than nothing.

I definitely think you're on the right track, 8e is all about keywords so they shouldn't be afraid to use them like this!

I frequently take 3 Basilisks when I play with my Imperial Guard, and I do not find the Basilisks to be over-powered. They tend to be extremely variable in their effect; some turns they kill a unit apiece, while some turns they do nothing. They're a good unit, mostly because they are inexpensive and can reach anywhere on the game board. But they don't do enough, on average, to be considered unfair.

 Saber wrote:
I frequently take 3 Basilisks when I play with my Imperial Guard, and I do not find the Basilisks to be over-powered. They tend to be extremely variable in their effect; some turns they kill a unit apiece, while some turns they do nothing. They're a good unit, mostly because they are inexpensive and can reach anywhere on the game board. But they don't do enough, on average, to be considered unfair.

Catachan is love, Catachan is life.

Stux wrote:
Leman Russ tanks are absolutely amazing for their current price. I don't really see how anyone can think they need a reduction. Also no one should be worrying about the cost of a Tank Commander when really they should be running Pask. BS 2+ and an extra order makes him a contender for best vehicle in the game.

Yeah, most people run Pask with 2 or more tank commanders. For little points, you have bs 3+. Add a Primaris Psyker for the -1 to hit power and use smoke launchers with the order to protec your pascual man with a -2 to hit on turn 1. Oh he was rerrolling 1s too.
Yeah too much. In my friends play group we have banned spam in general, and that includes tank commanders and pask.

 Saber wrote:
I frequently take 3 Basilisks when I play with my Imperial Guard, and I do not find the Basilisks to be over-powered. They tend to be extremely variable in their effect; some turns they kill a unit apiece, while some turns they do nothing. They're a good unit, mostly because they are inexpensive and can reach anywhere on the game board. But they don't do enough, on average, to be considered unfair.

So you spam one unit in the "defining" slot of one of the better Codices to the limit and don't consider it OP? Are you lying or are you making fun of players with worse codices?

The limit would be 9, not three.

Right, I forgot about the vehicle squadron rule.

Does that make it better?

I mean, you can even cheap out on the disadvantage of likely starting 2nd for buying several 108 points models by placing them all at once. Range and LoS don't matter anyway, so you can even cheap out on the disadvantage of the vehicle squadron rule.

Trollbert wrote:
Right, I forgot about the vehicle squadron rule.

Does that making it better?

I mean, you can even cheap out on the disadvantage of likely starting 2nd for buying several 108 points models by placing them all at once. Range and LoS don't matter anyway, so you can even cheap out on the disadvantage of the vehicle squadron rule.

There's a difference between good and broken/OP. They're good.

They are good in a codex that is about 10% more in point efficient than all (Chaos) Space Marines codices and some Xenos armies.

Basilisks are not a problem, they are good, not OP. But if many things in a codex are good, the strengths of those units amplifies.

Trollbert wrote:
They are good in a codex that is about 10% more in point efficient than all (Chaos) Space Marines codices and some Xenos armies.

Basilisks are not a problem, they are good, not OP. But if many things in a codex are good, the strengths of those units amplifies.

I agree with this. They aren't an inherently overpowered unit, it's just in an army that is already amazing.

Also, when a Tau player looks at a Basilisk and then at a Hammerhead with Railgun I wouldn't blame them for shedding a tear.

I think it is good. Not over the top.

My Russes get better mileage,. Specifically my conquerors.

Are Russes op then? I mean, you say that they are better than Basilisk, which are good. Or are they only good as well?

Trollbert wrote:
Are Russes op then? I mean, you say that they are better than Basilisk, which are good. Or are they only good as well?

Russes are way OP. You can tell by how many tournament armies are spamming them to achieve victo-

Oh wait, they're not.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
Are Russes op then? I mean, you say that they are better than Basilisk, which are good. Or are they only good as well?

Russes are way OP. You can tell by how many tournament armies are spamming them to achieve victo-

Oh wait, they're not.

Pause.

Imperial Guard are still a top tier army, their problem is that Eldar and Dark Eldar have just become so strong (unsurprisingly) that they can't hang with that army. Example, Hemlock Wraithfighters are going to fly over at -2 to hit, drop 2D3 auto-hit AP-4 2 damage shots into a Russ, throwing in a smite for good measure. They get a free 20" advance, so on turn 1 they're hitting you no matter what. And if you go first your Basilisks / Manticores are hitting on 6s. Then they deep strike in reapers to finish the job, with a 2+ in cover and a -1 to hit for good measure, paired nicely with guide and fortune.

Eldar have fundamentally changed what is viable in the high meta. Without Eldar, Guard would be #1. A pure guard list took the Boise GT recently.

Marmatag is right. Imperial Guard are the Tau of 7th. They aren't strong enough to win tournaments left and right (Because thats what Eldar are doing), but they are strong enough to bully into submision all other codexes that aren't at the top.

They are gatekeepers. Any good Eldar/Dark Eldar/Imperial Soup list will destroy Imperial Guard without a problem. But then trying to win agaisnt Imperial Guard with all other factions is very hard. Talking about Imperial Guard as a mono faction here, of course, they are obviously very strong in the classic Imperial Guard+BA+Jetbike Captains imperial soup list and they can with with that kind of list agaisnt Eldar, etc...
But many posts are like "Imperial Guard are like SO weak! They are only good in IMperial Soup!" and thats just isn't true.

Speaking here about the most competitive lists, of course. You can have "fluffy" IG lists that are much less powerfull.


TL;DR: Basilisk and Leman Russes are very, very powerfull. They aren't OP, because they have counterplay, and aren't like Dark Reapers or Conscripts at the beginning of 8th.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
Are Russes op then? I mean, you say that they are better than Basilisk, which are good. Or are they only good as well?

Russes are way OP. You can tell by how many tournament armies are spamming them to achieve victo-

Oh wait, they're not.

Depends on your definition of OP. They are well above average, but they aren't top tier. Russes are 'noob stompers' but not top level competitive.

 Galas wrote:
Marmatag is right. Imperial Guard are the Tau of 7th. They aren't strong enough to win tournaments left and right (Because thats what Eldar are doing), but they are strong enough to bully into submision all other codexes that aren't at the top.

They are gatekeepers. Any good Eldar/Dark Eldar/Imperial Soup list will destroy Imperial Guard without a problem. But then trying to win agaisnt Imperial Guard with all other factions is very hard. Talking about Imperial Guard as a mono faction here, of course, they are obviously very strong in the classic Imperial Guard+BA+Jetbike Captains imperial soup list and they can with with that kind of list agaisnt Eldar, etc...
But many posts are like "Imperial Guard are like SO weak! They are only good in IMperial Soup!" and thats just isn't true.

Speaking here about the most competitive lists, of course. You can have "fluffy" IG lists that are much less powerfull.


TL;DR: Basilisk and Leman Russes are very, very powerfull. They aren't OP, because they have counterplay, and aren't like Dark Reapers or Conscripts at the beginning of 8th.

I'd add Chaos Soup to your list of things doing well at tournaments.

And, yes, mono-faction non-soup lists struggle vs Guard. But that's like saying that an army entirely made up of 3 Elites choices taken in Auxiliary Support Detachments for -1 CP each struggle vs Guard. If an army doesn't use all the tools available, then it's deliberately handicapping itself and shouldn't worry about losing. This goes for everyone, Guard included. For example, I recently de-souped my Slaanesh Daemons list, removing all the other Chaos elements and keeping only units with Slaanesh Daemons faction keywords. I recognize that this is making the army worse, and therefore have no real right to complain when it gets roflstomped, because I'm not using all the tools available to me to make my list not get roflstomped.

Whether or not this is a good thing is up for debate; some people love soup, others hate it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stux wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
Are Russes op then? I mean, you say that they are better than Basilisk, which are good. Or are they only good as well?

Russes are way OP. You can tell by how many tournament armies are spamming them to achieve victo-

Oh wait, they're not.

Depends on your definition of OP. They are well above average, but they aren't top tier. Russes are 'noob stompers' but not top level competitive.

This I can agree with. Above average, not top tier.

Considering the Russ is supposed to be one of the better tanks in the setting (at least according to the fluff I've read) I am comfortable with this.

It's pretty gross to sit there and say your ridiculously powerful army is a "noob stomper" when in reality quite a few armies simply cannot defeat Guard, regardless of their options.

I guess Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, and Tau should just soup more? Or maybe all the flavors of SM should stop being so lame and add Guard to fight Guard.

Bottom line, Guard are a fantastic army, behind only
a combination of themselves + Custodes, Eldar + Dark Eldar, and *maybe* some Chaos but that's not even a given.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Marmatag is right. Imperial Guard are the Tau of 7th. They aren't strong enough to win tournaments left and right (Because thats what Eldar are doing), but they are strong enough to bully into submision all other codexes that aren't at the top.

They are gatekeepers. Any good Eldar/Dark Eldar/Imperial Soup list will destroy Imperial Guard without a problem. But then trying to win agaisnt Imperial Guard with all other factions is very hard. Talking about Imperial Guard as a mono faction here, of course, they are obviously very strong in the classic Imperial Guard+BA+Jetbike Captains imperial soup list and they can with with that kind of list agaisnt Eldar, etc...
But many posts are like "Imperial Guard are like SO weak! They are only good in IMperial Soup!" and thats just isn't true.

Speaking here about the most competitive lists, of course. You can have "fluffy" IG lists that are much less powerfull.


TL;DR: Basilisk and Leman Russes are very, very powerfull. They aren't OP, because they have counterplay, and aren't like Dark Reapers or Conscripts at the beginning of 8th.

I'd add Chaos Soup to your list of things doing well at tournaments.

And, yes, mono-faction non-soup lists struggle vs Guard. But that's like saying that an army entirely made up of 3 Elites choices taken in Auxiliary Support Detachments for -1 CP each struggle vs Guard. If an army doesn't use all the tools available, then it's deliberately handicapping itself and shouldn't worry about losing. This goes for everyone, Guard included. For example, I recently de-souped my Slaanesh Daemons list, removing all the other Chaos elements and keeping only units with Slaanesh Daemons faction keywords. I recognize that this is making the army worse, and therefore have no real right to complain when it gets roflstomped, because I'm not using all the tools available to me to make my list not get roflstomped.

Whether or not this is a good thing is up for debate; some people love soup, others hate it.

But we are talking here about Non-soup mono-factions vs a non-soup mono faction Imperial Guard list. Imperial Guard does not need to use all the tools availible (Basically becoming a Imperial Soup with BA and Shield Captains on Jetbikes) to be better than most other mono-factions. So your comparison, in my opinion, isn't good. Imperial Guard should be balanced, as a mono-faction, agaisnt other mono factions. And it isn't.
That does not mean is the most OP stuff out there. But as I said, is solidly the gatekeeper of the competitive meta.

And about "X being very good in the fluff, so it is ok to have it be OP in the game" ... no. A model can be powerfull and balanced if it cost the points it should cost. Like most non Shield Captain on Jetbikes Adeptus Custodes stuff. The Adeptus Custodes Codex is very balanced, and you can notice it because it isn't used in tournaments all that much.

Just watched a poor Necron guy march into the IG guns trying to get gak done. After the two doomsday arks got dusted in one turn, it was downhill all the way.

Advocating that all mono-faction armies should be fairly balanced against eachother is the same thing as advocating that Adeptus Astra Telepathica be fairly balanced with Space Marines...

I know a guy who runs an Astra Telepathica army at 500 points made up of Vanguard detachments with a Primaris Psyker and Sisters of Silence in Null-Maiden Rhinos. I don't play him, because I don't really like small point games, but for all the naysayers who say "that's not a real faction neugh"... well, there you have it.

To explain myself better.

To:
"My mono-faction army can't compete agaisnt a Imperial Guard soup with BA and Custodes"

The answer is
"The competitive reality of 8th is that you need to have a very powerfull codex or use all the tools at your disposal to compete, so souping is most of the time the best option"

But to:
"My mono-faction army can't compete agaisnt mono-faction Dark Eldar/Imperial Guard/ Craftworld Eldar"

Then the answer becomes:
"Those armies are very powerfull"(Most of the time) or
"Your army, sadly, is very weak" (To Grey Knights)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Advocating that all mono-faction armies should be fairly balanced against eachother is the same thing as advocating that Adeptus Astra Telepathica be fairly balanced with Space Marines...

I know a guy who runs an Astra Telepathica army at 500 points made up of Vanguard detachments with a Primaris Psyker and Sisters of Silence in Null-Maiden Rhinos. I don't play him, because I don't really like small point games, but for all the naysayers who say "that's not a real faction neugh"... well, there you have it.

Now thats just disigenuous and you know it.
And I say this as one of the 3 guys on the planet with a 2k point Sisters of Silence 40k army.

 Galas wrote:
To explain myself better.

To:
"My mono-faction army can't compete agaisnt a Imperial Guard soup with BA and Custodes"

The answer is
"The competitive reality of 8th is that you need to have a very powerfull codex or use all the tools at your disposal to compete, so souping is most of the time the best option"

But to:
"My mono-faction army can't compete agaisnt mono-faction Dark Eldar/Imperial Guard/ Craftworld Eldar"

Then the answer becomes:
"Those armies are very powerfull"(Most of the time) or
"Your army, sadly, is very weak" (To Grey Knights)

Yes, and I think that's fine.

Because my Mono-Faction Slaanesh Daemons can't compete with mono-faction ...well damn near anything. So does that mean I should call for the nerfing of everyone else?

Should a mono-faction Inquisition player ask for mono-GK to be nerfed so he has a chance?

IG has the extra benefit that they are thoroughly miserable to play against, too!

Martel732 wrote:
IG has the extra benefit that they are thoroughly miserable to play against, too!

This I agree with, and is why I abhor the Cadian doctrine. An army that's already gunline and annoying to fight against shouldn't have further incentive to double down on castling.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG has the extra benefit that they are thoroughly miserable to play against, too!

This I agree with, and is why I abhor the Cadian doctrine. An army that's already gunline and annoying to fight against shouldn't have further incentive to double down on castling.

Disagree.

That said, it could be tweaked to only apply while the units are in cover.